Fall Balance Preview Feedback

1568101116

Comments

  • #212
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257

    @SquishyMuffin ha detto:
    @SAY_MY_NAME could you please use the quote feature properly/cut out unnecessary quotes? I don't think I'm exaggerating by saying that you have flooded many threads with literal walls of text. Kappa.

    It's a mobile site issue.
    Keep twitch out bro

  • #213
    2 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    Stug g will not be worth 10 pop cap in 1v1. Their utility is far less than t3476 as they are an entirely reactive tank when the generalist t 34 is good for most targets. Specialists should be cheaper than generalists.
  • #214
    2 years ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434

    Feedback on the unnecessary Panzerwerfer nerf? Who on earth thought it was OP to begin with? Nothing in Wehr T4 is OP. All of it is UP and expensive.

  • #215
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited July 2017

    "OKW
    251 Flak Half-Track
    • 200% increased damage versus aircraft."

    Value seems a bit high, a 150-175% seem better number.

    Le.ig 18
    The changes seem to be over the top.

    Compared to mortars the units is more expensive, can not retreat, has troubles with shot blockers and has less range (auto-fire).
    Basically the unit is almost unusable in auto-fire due to the combination low range and huge nerf vs small arm.

    Compared to pak howitzer the units has less penetration, less range.

    In addition the unit vet really bad because it vet far to slow and vet bonuses give very little compared to live implementation.

    The changes might aim at fixing the mortar pit/leig wars but leave OKW defenseless vs 120mm mortar and even the pak howizter.

    I would suggest to start by just lowering range and adding smoke and see how it goes.

    Jagdpanzer IV
    The Jagdpanzer IV is receiving a reduction in terms of its veterancy power. Previously, a veteran Jagdpanzer proved to be too powerful due to its incredibly high damage when attacking from stealth, ability to self-spot without penalty to its max range, while also being very well-protected against tank shells. The Jagdpanzer stealth capabilities is also being moved in-line with other vehicles.

    On the other hand JP is to expensive and hs to high pop to counter mediums and to low penetration to counter heavies.

    Unit needs a clearly defined role and abilities vet bonuses for that role. For instance it does not need more accuracy at vet 2 but more penetration.

    251 Walking Stuka
    Further adjustment needed like XP if one want to bring it line with other rocket artillery like XP value, cooldown, range.

    Sturm Offizer
    • Offizer model Reinforce from 50 to 35 .
    • Reinforce time from 16 to 7.

    Since you are touching the unit fix the issue where leig do not benefit from aura.

    In addition allow the units to vet and have aura/abilities improve with veterancy.

    OKW Starting Weapon Crews
    • Now use a unique variant of the Kar98k rather than the Volksgrenadier version to match other weapon teams.

    Fix the accuracy of the hmg34 since the crew used to have more dps than the gun itself and this now has been nerfed.

    Changes to leig and RW seem unnecessary. RW performance is inconstant and Leig can not retreat compared to other team weapons.

  • #216
    2 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798

    What is it that people don't understand about the StuG? It's in a faction that doesn't have any 60 range TDs. StuGs cost 8 because they don't scale well into the late game. StuG don't get penetration or range bonuses from vet which would allow them better survivability vs heavies. 50 range means that Comets and Persh can return fire. Stugs depend on RNG more than other TDs vs heavies as the RoF bonuses from vet may not matter if luck is not on your side. The Stug has only slightly more than 50% of penetrating a persh or comet while allied TDs including the su76 have 75-80% chance of penetrating the Tiger. The Su76 on the other hand........ better pen, range and speed - perfect for kiting axis heavy armor. The survivability of Stugs in the late game are a major issue. Sure they are quite the monsters when used in 2s or 3s but against heavies, you're bound to lose one of them. Just like a massive flank assault from 3 t34-76 on a KT, you're bound to lose at least one of them. T34-76 is easily worth 10 because they can also deal with inf and at guns so if you run into an at gun while pulling off an assault you can still tell your tanks to target the at gun before resuming your chase on the axis heavy whereas Stugs are defenseless if they run into an at gun. The only thing you can do is bypass the arc of the at gun to minimize damage and break off the assault before the allied player rotates his at gun.

  • #217
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    Stug has been OP for cost for an awful long time, the only reason its remained unotuched is that its OST's crutch, as in without it, the faction would be well and truly hopeless.

    As units like the panther and p4 get buffed into a useable state, and the overperforming allied indirect eg. Calliope, Brit pit or LM were nerfed, all the support weapons that OST was designed to work with are suddenly viable again, as they are no longer vaporised the moment they finish setting up.

    That means that OST no longer has to rely on the stug spam as its only decent late game at. So you can begin to scale it back with each change, slowly weaning off OST players from years of stug spam addication is a delicate process, but by the end when p4/ostwind/t4 is viable and the tiger isn't quite such a deadweight, players will feel alot better with changes when looking in hindsight.

  • #218
    2 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798

    @Farra13 said:
    Stug has been OP for cost for an awful long time, the only reason its remained unotuched is that its OST's crutch, as in without it, the faction would be well and truly hopeless.

    As units like the panther and p4 get buffed into a useable state, and the overperforming allied indirect eg. Calliope, Brit pit or LM were nerfed, all the support weapons that OST was designed to work with are suddenly viable again, as they are no longer vaporised the moment they finish setting up.

    That means that OST no longer has to rely on the stug spam as its only decent late game at. So you can begin to scale it back with each change, slowly weaning off OST players from years of stug spam addication is a delicate process, but by the end when p4/ostwind/t4 is viable and the tiger isn't quite such a deadweight, players will feel alot better with changes when looking in hindsight.

    And where are the buffs to the p4 and panther that you say? The only buff to the panther was making the tier 4 tech slightly cheaper. P4 is still terrible at penetrating stock allied mediums and therefore still somewhat overpriced. However, I agree that support weapons are slightly more viable due to a rather general nerf to arty.

  • #219
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited July 2017
    Agree with Vipper.
    jadgpanzer 4 need a solid rework.

    Maybe giving both normal rof (jadgpanzer 4), normal speed (stug), and a good scaling without useless accuracy buff.

    Is it still too late to make panther a premium generalist like comet, able to deal with mediums, infantry with main gun and flank with good moving accuracy heavies (so low pen and unreliable to frontally target is2, churchill, heavy stuff) and have unturretted deal with heavies with higher pen (actual panther pen) for an higher price.

    I'm the only one who thinks that this will make more sense and allow for more variety in vehicle play ?

    Right now is "here, take a panther and some fausts/atg, you can deal with everything".
  • #220
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited July 2017
    > @Farra13 ha detto:
    > Stug has been OP for cost for an awful long time, the only reason its remained unotuched is that its OST's crutch, as in without it, the faction would be well and truly hopeless.
    >
    > As units like the panther and p4 get buffed into a useable state, and the overperforming allied indirect eg. Calliope, Brit pit or LM were nerfed, all the support weapons that OST was designed to work with are suddenly viable again, as they are no longer vaporised the moment they finish setting up.
    >
    > That means that OST no longer has to rely on the stug spam as its only decent late game at. So you can begin to scale it back with each change, slowly weaning off OST players from years of stug spam addication is a delicate process, but by the end when p4/ostwind/t4 is viable and the tiger isn't quite such a deadweight, players will feel alot better with changes when looking in hindsight.

    Which buffs have panther and panzer 4 got ?
  • #221
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647
    edited July 2017

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    And where are the buffs to the p4 and panther that you say? The only buff to the panther was making the tier 4 tech slightly cheaper. P4 is still terrible at penetrating stock allied mediums and therefore still somewhat overpriced. However, I agree that support weapons are slightly more viable due to a rather general nerf to arty.

    The key is the adverb "as". There are still plenty of changes that will come eventually, it just requires the scope to be expanded. Its ROF is still silly when vetted, I imagine when the panther and p4 see some changes that will be the final bit of tuning.

    The mod-team isn't going to throw out one massive patch in an attempt to balance everything. Its a gradual process, making adjustments to both sides, so you don't screw up and completely f*** the balance like the turbo mortar patch did.

    The stug recieved nerfs this time because OST's other support units shreked upped -p-grens and paks, are way more viable without calliopes, mortar pits etc. obliterating them with those crazy alpha strikes. So players will therefore not have to rely solely on the stug as their only means of at post 15min.

  • #222
    2 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798

    @Farra13 said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    And where are the buffs to the p4 and panther that you say? The only buff to the panther was making the tier 4 tech slightly cheaper. P4 is still terrible at penetrating stock allied mediums and therefore still somewhat overpriced. However, I agree that support weapons are slightly more viable due to a rather general nerf to arty.

    The key is the adverb "as". There are still plenty of changes that will come eventually, it just requires the scope to be expanded. Its ROF is still silly when vetted, I imagine when the panther and p4 see some changes that will be the final bit of tuning.

    The stug recieved nerfs this time because OST's other support units shreked upped -p-grens and paks, are way more viable without calliopes, mortar pits etc. obliterating them with those crazy alpha strikes. So players will therefore not have to rely solely on the stug as their only means of at post 15min.

    You just made my point. "As." Why don't the devs leave the stug alone UNTIL they buff the p4 and/or panther? Paks and schrecks are not a stug replacment. Though indirect fire got nerfs remember allied tanks still have far superior ai on average. The allied tank with the worst ai is a cromwell whose ai is actually on par with ost p4 until the p4 reaches vet 2.

    I agree that the RoF of vetted stugs are crazy except when i made a post a few months back about changing the vet 3 to increased pen or range, everyone disliked.

  • #223
    2 years ago
    javabaljavabal Posts: 88

    Hello,
    As many people have been complaining about the changes to Stuka 251, I did some testing. The test is not perfect, because the Stuka and the others pull differently (one is circular and the others in line). I try to do the test as equaly as possible.

    In the images you can see the number of units that I kill. Katyusha is still the worst, and you have to keep in mind that when you disperse at the same distance as the rest, Katyusha has more accuracy because he can shoot farther, and also, you have to keep in mind that he shoots in 4 rounds , If you play against a good player only hit the first round before the units are retired, in this case would not kill anyone.

    The one that did more damage, remained the Stuka, followed by the calliope.





  • #224
    2 years ago
    bosnobosno Norway;OsloPosts: 1

    I think OKW should get mg from beginners like Wehrmacht,
    And Panzer v for OKW cost 200 fuel, I think 175 fuel like Wehrmacht will be fair.

  • #225
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited July 2017
    @Farra13
    Exactly, mostly all stuff that isn't stug or pre patch jadgpanzer 4 is still UP and/or cost inefficient.

    Like incendiary said, messing with the only good stuff without fixing alternatives is simply wrong.
  • #226
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,651

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    @Farra13
    Exactly, mostly all stuff that isn't stug or pre patch jadgpanzer 4 is still UP and/or cost inefficient.

    Like incendiary said, messing with the only good stuff without fixing alternatives is simply wrong.

    I guess all the nerfs to all soviet infantry, while ignoring conscripts time and time again prove you wrong on this one.

  • #227
    2 years ago
    ReichsgardeReichsgar… Bad Tolz, Bayern, GermanyPosts: 121

    Rather than lowering the cost of Panther tanks, make them more accurate and have them deal more damage so that they are not subjected to RNG at least when they are not moving. After all, Panther tanks were famous for their accuracy. Same applies to the Panzer IV. It is just ridiculous to see German tanks missing point-blank shots when any person with decent historical knowledge knows that German optics were the best in the world. Moreover, I honestly believe that German tanks should by default have higher range than most, if not all, Allied tanks as they excelled at ranged combat, thanks to their advanced optics. Rather than making their default firing/view range higher, you could implement range improvements in their veterancy levels.

    In addition, to anyone who says that Stug III G and PaK 40 did not fire artillery shells, I suggest rechecking your facts. Both weapon systems DID use HE shells to clear out bunkers and entrenched infantry defensive positions.

  • #228
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited July 2017

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    P4 is still terrible at penetrating stock allied mediums and therefore still somewhat overpriced.

    What? P4 has a 66% chance of frontally penetrating a T34 at max range, and 62% chance of penetrating a Sherman/Cromwell at max range.

    Sherman and Cromwell have a 55% chance of penetrating a p4 (OST) at max range, while a t34/76 has a 50% chance. Those numbers are obviously even lower for the OKW p4, which has 54 more armor. It's chance against stock mediums can't be THAT terrible if those stock mediums have a higher chance to be penetrated BY it than they do to penetrate it themselves...

    Whatever issues the P4 has, penetration is absolutely not one of them. Both Ost and OKW P4s have more armor than all the other stock mediums, they don't need to have better penetration too.

  • #229
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    You just made my point. "As." Why don't the devs leave the stug alone UNTIL they buff the p4 and/or panther? Paks and schrecks are not a stug replacment.

    Because the live stug backed up by consistent paks and shreks that will be vetting reliably is overkill in terms of at power.

    Though indirect fire got nerfs remember allied tanks still have far superior ai on average. The allied tank with the worst ai is a cromwell whose ai is actually on par with ost p4 until the p4 reaches vet 2.

    The main problem OST had was a reliance on the stug, as units like the pak and shreks were wiped too easily by indirect barrages from units like the calliope, that meant that the superior allied infantry could screen an assualt and push off the massed stugs with handheld at, and have their own mediums safely move foward and mop up the infantry afterwards.

    Now that they don't have such potent indirect, OST players can be confident in using a mix of shreks, paks alongside stugs, knowing that for the most part they aren't going to disappear in a cloud of hellfire the minute an full engagement occurs. Removing that crutch of using just stugs frees up fuel, fuel that can be used to purchase units like the revamped Ostwind.

    Suddenly the inferior infantry that are grens and their mgs, that would previously have been struggling to hold back the penals, rifles, IS etc, now have an ai monster covering them. Something that wouldn't have been there before, as an OST players fuel would have previously been tied up in more stugs to try and handle the allied armour.

    The infantry matchup is then more balanced, your at sources aren't all steamrolled by the zook/piat/stick satchel blob, which prevents the allied tanks from smashing into your grens/p-grens.

    That's the thing about coh2, one small tweak can have a massive impact through so many indirect changes that occur as a result.

    I agree that the RoF of vetted stugs are crazy except when i made a post a few months back about changing the vet 3 to increased pen or range, everyone disliked.

    Until units like the p4 and panther actually become viable in terms of cost to performance, I don't think that touching stugs vet is a good idea. But yeh you aren't wrong, its like the thing has an autoloader installed at vet 3.

  • #230
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,073

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    "4 shots and litterally anything" means 6 (!!!!!)

    No. It means 4. What is your major malfunction? YOU said it took 4 shots (2 misses, 2 connecting). 4 + faust is 4 + faust - NOT 6.

  • #231
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited July 2017

    @Lazarus ha detto:

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    "4 shots and litterally anything" means 6 (!!!!!)

    No. It means 4. What is your major malfunction? YOU said it took 4 shots (2 misses, 2 connecting). 4 + faust is 4 + faust - NOT 6.

    OH my god WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM ?
    4 shots and a faust is irrelevant, IF IT TAKES 4 SHOTS IN AVERAGE AND IT'S STILL ALIVE, and to kill it again with the elephant you need THE THIRD HIT, but the elephant misses HALF OF THE TIME IN AVERAGE, you need 2 MORE SHOTS.

    THIS IS CALLED TIME TO KILL and it's not an hard concept at all.................

    And i clearly wrote 6 ELEPHANT shots, l2r.

  • #232
    2 years ago
    ImperialDaneImperialD… Posts: 3,173 mod

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    @Lazarus ha detto:

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    "4 shots and litterally anything" means 6 (!!!!!)

    No. It means 4. What is your major malfunction? YOU said it took 4 shots (2 misses, 2 connecting). 4 + faust is 4 + faust - NOT 6.

    OH my god WHAT IS YOUR PROBELM ?
    4 shots and a faust is irrelevant, IF IT TAKES 4 SHOTS IN AVERAGE AND IT'S STILL ALIVE, and to kill it again with the elephant you need THE THIRD HIT, but the elephant misses HALF OF THE TIME IN AVERAGE, you need 2 MORE SHOTS.

    THIS IS CALLED TIME TO KILL.

    Kindly refrain from all capsing people, your point does not become more true by doing this.

    Stick to providing feedback and not shouting at people.

    And that applies to everyone, provide feedback, don't try and undercut other people's feedback.

    As for my initial feedback, seems positive, some of the changes are weird like the Flammhetzer requiring tech but not getting buffed like the Bulldozer sherman, or the StuG E requiring none.

    The Stuka zu fuss change also seems very odd as a nerf as it actually performs better now than before. Because now you don't have to worry too much about specific aim. It's a unit that performs abysmally in 1v1s because it requires so much effort to land decently due to being very accurate, by changing that you actually make it better.

    Also nerfing the Elephant but giving it nothing to make it more viable when you actually do that for the Jagdtiger seems.. Odd and a bit inconsistent.'

    And at this stage if you keep nerfing the StuG Gs target weakpoint, why not just replace it ? I mean how many times has that ability been nerfed by now ? Give it an AoE ability instead, or an infantry support ability. Rather than just keep nerfing the target weakpoint ability until it doesn't work which seems to be the current approach.

    Also can we please get a nerf on the demo charge while we are at it ?

  • #233
    2 years ago
    Mr_SmithMr_Smith Posts: 343
    edited July 2017

    @Vipper said:

    Le.ig 18
    The changes seem to be over the top.

    Compared to mortars the units is more expensive, can not retreat, has troubles with shot blockers and has less range (auto-fire).
    Basically the unit is almost unusable in auto-fire due to the combination low range and huge nerf vs small arm.

    Compared to pak howitzer the units has less penetration, less range.

    In addition the unit vet really bad because it vet far to slow and vet bonuses give very little compared to live implementation.

    The changes might aim at fixing the mortar pit/leig wars but leave OKW defenseless vs 120mm mortar and even the pak howizter.

    I would suggest to start by just lowering range and adding smoke and see how it goes.

    Please refrain from theorycrafting. You are doing it all the time, and it doesn't help us at all. Launch the game, and try the actual units, please.

    The actual auto-fire range in the mod is actually 80; that's due to a bug we introduced when porting the mod. You can't catch that bug if you're only reading the patchnotes, for instance.

    Another thing you can't gauge by reading the patchnotes is that ISG received a more consistent projectile that fires at a lower angle. It's an absolute murder machine vs somewhat immobile units.

    251 Walking Stuka
    Further adjustment needed like XP if one want to bring it line with other rocket artillery like XP value, cooldown, range.

    Maybe. Let's try the actual stuka in game first, and let's see how it vets. It still deals a truckload of damage when it hits.

    Sturm Offizer
    • Offizer model Reinforce from 50 to 35 .
    • Reinforce time from 16 to 7.

    Since you are touching the unit fix the issue where leig do not benefit from aura.

    In addition allow the units to vet and have aura/abilities improve with veterancy.

    We aren't touching the unit; we're fixing officer reinforce cost queueing bug for all factions.

    OKW Starting Weapon Crews
    • Now use a unique variant of the Kar98k rather than the Volksgrenadier version to match other weapon teams.

    Fix the accuracy of the hmg34 since the crew used to have more dps than the gun itself and this now has been nerfed.

    Changes to leig and RW seem unnecessary. RW performance is inconstant and Leig can not retreat compared to other team weapons.

    In addition to all other changes, the new crews cost less to reinforce.

    @ImperialDane said:
    As for my initial feedback, seems positive, some of the changes are weird like the Flammhetzer requiring tech but not getting buffed like the Bulldozer sherman, or the StuG E requiring none.

    We wanted to get the Flamehetzer in-tech so that it can get a much-deserved buff, but the scope is too harsh; so we'll be reverting that change.

    The Stuka zu fuss change also seems very odd as a nerf as it actually performs better now than before. Because now you don't have to worry too much about specific aim. It's a unit that performs abysmally in 1v1s because it requires so much effort to land decently due to being very accurate, by changing that you actually make it better.

    Contrary to what the patchnotes indicate, we actually increased the one-hit-kill radius of the Stuka in v1.0 (oops).

    However, our intent for scatter and cost changes is, indeed, to make the unit more relevant in 1v1 where pinpoint barrage doesn't help anything. At the same time scatter changes prevent cheese-wipes from happening in other modes where accuracy is of utmost importance. Trois Ponts might actually start to feel playable after these changes.

    Also nerfing the Elephant but giving it nothing to make it more viable when you actually do that for the Jagdtiger seems.. Odd and a bit inconsistent.'

    Initially we wanted to give some kind of anti-infantry barrage to the Elefant, but that got veto'd by the scope. Note that the TWP now works on the move and should be easier to aim. We'll have to figure something else.

    And at this stage if you keep nerfing the StuG Gs target weakpoint, why not just replace it ? I mean how many times has that ability been nerfed by now ? Give it an AoE ability instead, or an infantry support ability. Rather than just keep nerfing the target weakpoint ability until it doesn't work which seems to be the current approach.

    The new TWP should be a lot easier to use vs circle-strafing medium tanks, which will let your Stug defend itself and buy time for supporting units to help. Old TWP allowed Stug hordes to ignore heavy armour.

    Also can we please get a nerf on the demo charge while we are at it ?

    Ideally, yes. However, I don't think we can really sell this as either call-in meta, or teamgame-meta.

  • #234
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    @Mr_Smith said:
    Please refrain from theorycrafting. You are doing it all the time, and it doesn't help us at all. Launch the game, and try the actual units, please.

    The actual auto-fire range in the mod is actually 80; that's due to a bug we introduced when porting the mod. You can't catch that bug if you're only reading the patchnotes, for instance.

    Another thing you can't gauge by reading the patchnotes is that ISG received a more consistent projectile that fires at a lower angle. It's an absolute murder machine vs somewhat immobile units.

    I am testing as much I can...

    I am not questioning the unit damage ability (with which i was not actually impressed) but the units ability to fight from the front-line without retreat while receiving massive nerf in speed and target size for crew, especially in faction with UP HMG.

    Add to this that it has to face other arty weapons like 120mm and pack howi and you get a better picture.

    We aren't touching the unit; we're fixing officer reinforce cost queueing bug for all factions.

    Well S.O. not giving the reload buff to Leig (as far as I know) is bug that should be fixed.

    In addition to all other changes, the new crews cost less to reinforce.

    The changes to crew weapons will probably have lowered the far DPS of HMG-34 squad by 1/3 and it already has very low DPS.

  • #235
    2 years ago
    company14u2company14… Posts: 572

    @Vipper said:

    @Mr_Smith said:
    Please refrain from theorycrafting. You are doing it all the time, and it doesn't help us at all. Launch the game, and try the actual units, please.

    The actual auto-fire range in the mod is actually 80; that's due to a bug we introduced when porting the mod. You can't catch that bug if you're only reading the patchnotes, for instance.

    Another thing you can't gauge by reading the patchnotes is that ISG received a more consistent projectile that fires at a lower angle. It's an absolute murder machine vs somewhat immobile units.

    I am testing as much I can...

    I am not questioning the unit damage ability (with which i was not actually impressed) but the units ability to fight from the front-line without retreat while receiving massive nerf in speed and target size for crew, especially in faction with UP HMG.

    Add to this that it has to face other arty weapons like 120mm and pack howi and you get a better picture.

    We aren't touching the unit; we're fixing officer reinforce cost queueing bug for all factions.

    Well S.O. not giving the reload buff to Leig (as far as I know) is bug that should be fixed.

    In addition to all other changes, the new crews cost less to reinforce.

    The changes to crew weapons will probably have lowered the far DPS of HMG-34 squad by 1/3 and it already has very low DPS.

    You cannot use pak howies or 120 to counter leigs against top premade teams, unless they have 3 or more ostheer. If you have two or more okw, one okw is supposed to go leig and the other is supposed to makes a walking stuka. The walking stuka denies pack howitzer play and will force a 120 to retreat. The pak howitzer is very easy to de-crew compared to the 120. The new walking stuka still wipes pak howitzer crews very easily, but a stuart tank can kill a walking stuka in three shots. If you think your opponents are going to build leigs and stukas, you are way better off building a stuart than wasting mp on pak howitzers.

  • #236
    2 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    After StuG nerf, give Ost Panther 55 range to compensate.

    Remove the ultra accuracy for British Pak. Make it US Pak clone with permanent Heat and old rate of fire. (nearly same performance, but is more logic).
  • #237
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,073
    > @Mr_Smith said:
    >
    > Ideally, yes. However, I don't think we can really sell this as either call-in meta, or teamgame-meta.

    I would argue the demo is very much part of the team game meta - but how exactly would one go about selling that to the powers that be? Submitting replays in which demos play a prominent role in 3s and 4s games and would it matter if the demo user in question was the same player in all the games?
  • #238
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    I actually think the demo is a necessary evil. It could be altered of course (is it possible to require an engie in range to detonate?)

    I also think the argument could be made that its a team game item, at least as much as FRP are, its actually my soviet counter to FRP enabled attack move blobs, but it might need a buff if it loses its capacity to do that.
  • #239
    2 years ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434

    Another Stug nerf essentially? Whermacht's only tank destroyer has to close the range to penetrate now?

  • #240
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822

    @SquishyMuffin said:
    Another Stug nerf essentially? Whermacht's only tank destroyer has to close the range to penetrate now?

    still pen every allied stock medium tank 100% of the time (most doctrinal mediums too, only one it will struggle with is the E8)

  • #241
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 694
    edited July 2017
    > @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > I actually think the demo is a necessary evil. It could be altered of course (is it possible to require an engie in range to detonate?)

    I agree with @thedarkarmadillo on it being a necessary evil. Combet engies only boons are being cheap and having demo,s. And soviets lack ai upgrades and anti blob power outside the demo.

    Removing them or downgrading them to a hand detonated mine with high supression/instant pin with max 2 models wiped as others suggested makes the mine a far better choice.

    The requirering of an engi within a certain range is reasonable if the range is greater then pios sight range. Otherwise whats the point.

    All engi/pio units have different things going for them.

    Combat engies: cheap and non doc demo,s.

    Pio's: have extra sight range build 2 sorts of mines builds bunkers.

    Sturms: have high close dps and light at option.

    Rear echelons: builds tanktraps and fighting pit, can get 5th man and is cheap at/ai platform, and volley fire.

    Sappers: can get 5th man, destroy cover ability, acces to potent at and ai upgrades, build emp.

    You would be killing half of combat engies usefulnes if the demos is changed/nerfed.
This discussion has been closed.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

  • © SEGA. SEGA, the SEGA logo, Relic Entertainment, the Relic Entertainment logo, Company of Heroes and the Company of Heroes logo are either trademarks or registered trademarks of SEGA Holdings Co., Ltd. or its affiliates. All rights reserved. SEGA is registered in the US Patent and Trademark Office. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.