Panther OST/OKW buffs or changes [all game modes]

#1
2 years ago

Hello, the fall patch was being clutered with posts about the panther. thats why i started this post.

We all agree the current panters need something. Although the OKW panther is in a slightly better spot.

The most gripes i hear and read about.
1. its accuracy in combination with a long reload.
2. its lacking dps on the main gun.
3. its weak ai performance even with pintle a mounted mg.
4. not being cost effecient.
5. the overbuffed allied tank destroyers.

My suggestions for making the panther viable again. this is based on my experience in 1v1s and discussing it on the forums.

  1. Buffs its base accuracy from 0.4/0.6 to for example 0.5/0.7 maybe with a reload buff from 7 seconds to about 5.5 seconds. This way it will have a better chance to hit targets while stationary making it into a fast tank sniper. This will also slightly buff its moving accuracy. The accuracy chance will keep it specialized in AT duties while using its armour to shrug off shells from most tanks.

  2. Buff its moving accuracy from 0.5 to brit/usf level 0.75 basicly make it a flanker tank. this would mean the current movement acc for OST is 0.2/0.3 and 0.26/0.39 for OKW would go to 0.3/0.45. Both panthers have better base accuracy and pen plus they have more armour then most allied tanks. This should be balanced with the long reload both panthers currently have. A reload buff with this would be overkill unless the armour for the panthers is nerfed.

  3. Change it into a generalist tank by giving its main gun aoe of a t34/p4 and a slight reload buff to about 6/6.5 seconds, so it can fight infantry and tanks alike. This however would hurt the P4 and brum imo with role overlap.

  4. Give them a reload/dps buff. Ive been flanked and flanked by and with panthers but they lacked the dps the make a impact. however am not to sure if this will increase hit chances in a meaningfull way. Maybe someone can help me with that.

  5. Swap the tiger and the ost panther and leave okw panther is as. However this would leave you with 2 units with good AI, one wich also has good AT in t4 making one redundent probably along with the p4 from t3.

I am not in favor of making the panthers cheaper or give them even more armour because the tds can do their job against the panther. The su76 will be changed to a medium td and will have little effect on the panther. Other td will have their acc tweaked.

Personaly i am in favor of the 1st and 2nd options because they effect only the panthers and dont create role overlaps with other units.
So guys feel free to discuss and give your thought and ideas on the subject of the panthers.

«1

Comments

  • #2
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited August 2017
    Reduce of 30 armor.
    Do both 2 and 3 point.
    Reduce range to comet
    Reduce of 40 pen
    Both panthers to 200 fuel.

    Make stug/jadgpanzer 4 the 60 range go to td just like firefly and jackson are for allies.
    Increase pen in both.
    Make them 135 and 145.

    No need for two td's in axis factions, and surely no need for two tank snipers...+ problem of dirty cheap stug solved + now ost and okw have more tactical opportunities with an aggressive oriented premium tank that has good moving accuracy.
  • #3
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    Think you are going the wrong way about:
    One has first to decide what role the Panther has and how it goes about performing that role.

    Then one has to find a away to make Ostheer T4 viable because currently it is not. One has to invest lots of resources with little bonuses (researching battle phases to not even give you CP) to get access to 2 very expensive and very dedicated vehicles.

  • #4
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited August 2017
    @Vipper
    Making tier 4 units good is a good starts.

    As I see it, there are 2 options.
    1) PREMIUM GENERALIST LIKE COMET with some asymmetrical balance differences mainly regarding abilities (blitz/emergemcy + throw nade), but overall similar ai and at capacity, accuracy and moving accuracy included, and same range.
    The panther armor HAS to be nerfed, but the reload speed reduced to two seconds, going to be about 5 seconds.
    Soft nerf to pen to 200 to make it less of a jack of all trades.
    I would evaluate this panther 200 fuel.

    2) MOBILE TANK HUNTER, so basically 1 without ai of main gun and range reduction, will still need a 5 second reload and good accuracy and moving accuracy to be reliable, while keeping fuel cost still high (185) and keep the option 1 armor reduction will make it less annoying to be countered.
    Obiviously there's no room for option 1 pen nerf here, and range should be kept at 50.

    Tank sniper role is a bad idea no matter the changes...stug is going to do it better for cheaper, and if not stug pak..
    Lowering pen of unturretted is also wrong.
    If anything, those slow tanks should have range and being able to counter all tanks, just like wfa allies, while being more expensive (it's quite a big disadvantage no faction should have, requiring 2 tank destroyers to effectively counter all tanks while other factions don't.
    The main difference between panther and stug/jadg should playstyle, one focusing on speed for flanking manuvers and the other doing a solid anti tank job.

    Note that the panther + stug/jadg rework is perfectly compatible with jackson 60 range as finally OST won't be bulled by jackson and jackson can have it's far range penetration fixed to keep it's anti medium/heavy versatility (as it should be).
  • #5
    2 years ago
    To make Ost and Okw late game more different the last idea would be best solution. You can give Tiger two kind of munition like Sherman, AT or AI so Panzer4 stay attractive. Give Ost-Panther 60 range and limit to 1.
  • #6
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,817
    A defined role is whats needed. Its got all the gun stats of heavy armour counter, but they enlisted the old IS-2 gunner so unless it gets some mad AOE buff (like, big...) An accuracy buff is an absolute necessity no matter what direction we go (aside from aforementioned collosal aoe buff)

    That through, all ost armour is a joke and leans entirely on the over efficiency of the stug and the tech skip tiger. Ots not good. But what do we do?
    Well. I think we need a unique way to buff all ost armour in a go (no, more armour at vet 2 isnt going to do it) so here is what I suggest:
    When ost armour is stationary they get +5 range
    You bein like "dark...wtf?"
    But here me out:
    Ost dont have a 60 range TD. all other factions however do, this leaves a heavy vulnerability and negates the advantage their expensive armour (panther included) is supposed to have : armour. So i think, if the panther manages a 55 range when stationary it would be much more formidable but its also a change that will help the underperforming p4 and the recently nerfed stug. Anyways thats my bit
  • #7
    2 years ago
    The range buff if stationary is also a good idea. I posted that some weeks ago.

    Still, I think Ost and West look too similar. Tiger 1 should be more present on the Ostfront. Giving Panther a more specialized AT role as Jackson with better armor and limit to one would feel more "realistic".
  • #8
    2 years ago
    Why simply giving stug 60 range is such a huge issue ?
    Why bothering with overcomplicated changes like the stationary range buff ?
  • #9
    2 years ago
    If the stug gets 60 range either the rof or armour needs some tweaking. The su76 has the range but ver weak armour.
  • #10
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,817
    As @TheLeveler83 said, its too...much of a unit for 60 range. There is only 1 pre full tech 60 range unit, the su76 and it's got the durability of a light tank AND it lacks medium tank support. If the stug had 60 range t4 would be as dead as the m42 AT gun
  • #11
    2 years ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    When ost armour is stationary they get +5 range
    You bein like "dark...wtf?"

    The problem I have with this is that it shoehorns Ost into a defensive role from game start to game end while their armor is supposed to be their way of taking back the initiative.

    Back to the Panther, the idea of it being a Comet-esque generalist isn't all that great. It winds up overlapping with the Tiger and leaves Ost wanting when Allied heavies with strong AI support arrive (eg. Shock Rifle IS-2 w/ Incendiary Barrage or Crocs) to zone out your Paks.

    IMO, the Panther would work best with a 0.65 move accuracy modified (same as OKW version) and possibly a 0.5 second RoF increase or swapping its vet2 and 3. It would be firmly cemented as a brawler with a specialty in killing enemy heavies/advanced mediums and running down injured vehicles.

  • #12
    2 years ago
    RaithRaith Posts: 195

    I agree that the Panther needs improvement. But it's part of a much larger issue with Ost armor, which is that save for the Stug (which is about the be nerfed), every tank is overpriced trash, not just the Panther. I might make a seperate thread for that, I'll see. I've given up playing Ost so it's hard to muster the force of will required to deal with the resultant arguments.

  • #13
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,020

    My proposal for the Panther would be to nerf its accuracy - yes, make it worse, while significantly buffing its RoF (think like vet 0 T34 RoF) and leaving its pen as is. So it spits a lot of high pen moderate range shots that constantly eat dirt currently. Instead, my proposal to buff the Panther and give it a proper role would be to increase target size of ALL heavies across the board (I'd recommend doing the same with the Axis ones so we can sort out Allied TDs further down the line). So what does this do? Well, it means that the Panthers decent RoF and high pen will make it an excellent tank killer.... if it can hit anything, and heavies will be an absolute breeze to hit. This also means you can't just spam Panthers to victory, because if your enemy goes medium spam, even with your new RoF you're still going to miss a bunch of shots. The Panthers armor and HP is what defends it against a single medium, rather than killing the offender quickly you simply outlast them - and of course you'll be weaker to multi-medium assaults but that's fine because those should kill Panthers.

    With that you can further focus the StuG in to a medium counter and lean on schrecks/Paks for killing TDs.

  • #14
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited August 2017

    @TheLeveler83 ha detto:
    If the stug gets 60 range either the rof or armour needs some tweaking. The su76 has the range but ver weak armour.

    @thedarkarmadillo ha detto:
    As @TheLeveler83 said, its too...much of a unit for 60 range. There is only 1 pre full tech 60 range unit, the su76 and it's got the durability of a light tank AND it lacks medium tank support. If the stug had 60 range t4 would be as dead as the m42 AT gun

    YES...OF COURSE it surely needs rof back to jadgpanzer 4.

    Do somebody even bothered reaading my proposal for armor department revamp ?

    su 85 should use a buff nontheless in terms of pen.
    su 76 can't cover the role stug has in ost, SU has already an unturretted TD that should, like wfa allies and my idea of stug/jadg, be the only response to every heavy tank, medium, td..

    su76 can use barrages and deal with mediums, so it scale in late game, but i don't see it as the SU tank destroyer wen su85 is there.

    Panther instead, got the potential to become a complement of stug in terms of playstyle, either as fast accurate premium, or tank hunter.

  • #15
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 692
    edited August 2017
    @Lazarus i am intriqed with your idea of higher rof with lower acc. It would put the panther in the its unique role.

    I always felt that the t34,s and old su85 high rof with vet just amounted to a lot of misses and bounces on top of that. Of course the latter is almost a non excisting issue for most axis at.

    The target sizes should put all tds ect in the right spot. Right now mediums have 22 the premium mediums/lighter heavies have 24 and heavies have 26. Thats pretty close together imo.
  • #16
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited August 2017

    Aqua ha detto:

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    When ost armour is stationary they get +5 range
    You bein like "dark...wtf?"

    The problem I have with this is that it shoehorns Ost into a defensive role from game start to game end while their armor is supposed to be their way of taking back the initiative.

    Back to the Panther, the idea of it being a Comet-esque generalist isn't all that great. It winds up overlapping with the Tiger and leaves Ost wanting when Allied heavies with strong AI support arrive (eg. Shock Rifle IS-2 w/ Incendiary Barrage or Crocs) to zone out your Paks.

    IMO, the Panther would work best with a 0.65 move accuracy modified (same as OKW version) and possibly a 0.5 second RoF increase or swapping its vet2 and 3. It would be firmly cemented as a brawler with a specialty in killing enemy heavies/advanced mediums and running down injured vehicles.

    The tank hunter option, good idea.
    Imho it would still need 0.75 of moving accuracy and, considering the reload is 7 seconds long, it needs at least 1.5 less seconds (no NONSENSE damage buffs that would force to revamp whole allied heavy department of course).
    Armor reduction ideas ?
    Price tag ?

    I don't see the panther being ok with such armor tho, i would say 300 is ok.

    BTW i just wanted to say that any revamp to Panther leaves OST main issue: not having a 60 range TD.
    I think that discussing any change to stug has to be done with specific changes for the Panther so it should be a topic of this thread.

    @Raith the total cost-inefficiency of most of the OST armor is another big issue.

  • #17
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited August 2017

    I don't think we need to re-discover the wheel here, I think the long needed buffs to accuracy and reload are all we really need. Maybe a slight buff to MG dps kind of like the t34, but giving the Panther's main gun a decent AOE seems like a very bad idea to me.

    I would give the Panther (vanilla) the same accuracy as the live Jackson, and then add a -20% reload modifier at vet 2 (currently only one is -30% at vet 3 which I would reduce to -20% meaning net -40% at vet 3). Also both Panthers should have a moving accuracy modifier of at least .65, not just the OKW one.

  • #18
    2 years ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    ... it needs at least 1.5 less seconds

    I disagree on that. The Panther's raw DPS should be a bit lower so it doesn't become the go-to solution to all Allied tanks once its available.

    Armor reduction ideas ?
    Price tag ?

    Armor's fine, durability to slug it with IS-2s or risk diving retreating tanks should be what its used for and the only price issue is Ost's tech costs in general.

  • #19
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited August 2017

    Aqua ha detto:

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    ... it needs at least 1.5 less seconds

    I disagree on that. The Panther's raw DPS should be a bit lower so it doesn't become the go-to solution to all Allied tanks once its available.

    Armor reduction ideas ?
    Price tag ?

    Armor's fine, durability to slug it with IS-2s or risk diving retreating tanks should be what its used for and the only price issue is Ost's tech costs in general.

    Considering it's not getting any damage buff, 6.5 is definetly too slow.
    6 imho is ok.

  • #20
    2 years ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    Considering it's not getting any damage buff, 6.5 is definetly too slow.
    6 imho is ok.

    Its why I'd swap the vet 2 and 3 instead, otherwise a vet 3 panther is going to have a reload time of 4.2 seconds

  • #21
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited August 2017
    Oh yeah forgot about that.
  • #22
    2 years ago
    I think 0.65 moving acc for the ost panther is a good start. And i would move the 30% reload buff to vet 2 for ost. And give x% to accuracy at vet 3. The armour hp vet bonus will have to go to balance this out.

    The vet 1 bonus. We could add reload buff to it. Plus the moving acc back to 0.5 while active. Other wise to much acc and to low reload during ability at vet 3.
    Or an he round as vet ability.

    I was under the impression the guns for both had the same acc. The okw panther has higher acc. But maybe i misread it or something. They should be the same. Maybe the mgs should be as well.
    I am a bit reluctend to boost the osts panther mgs, ive seen the okw one park in front of a at gun bounce its round and melt the crew.
  • #23
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,020

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    I don't think we need to re-discover the wheel here, I think the long needed buffs to accuracy and reload are all we really need. Maybe a slight buff to MG dps kind of like the t34, but giving the Panther's main gun a decent AOE seems like a very bad idea to me.

    I would give the Panther (vanilla) the same accuracy as the live Jackson, and then add a -20% reload modifier at vet 2 (currently only one is -30% at vet 3 which I would reduce to -20% meaning net -40% at vet 3). Also both Panthers should have a moving accuracy modifier of at least .65, not just the OKW one.

    The only thing that concerns me about a buff to accuracy + reload is we're likely to end up in a situation where our margin for error is phenomenally small - the sweet "balance" zone. On one side of that zone will be still ignored and UP, and on the other side will be spammed and OP. We've got target sizes to utilize and we've completely ignored them as a stat. I think it's time to dip in to that well.

  • #24
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,817
    Id very much like to see a target size overhaul, somethign that helps define units and their counters but i feel like that is a big patch that should be a focus of its own, not a side show.

    For the panther as is now im inclined to agree with @SkysTheLimit that an overhaul might not be necessary, but a bit of reliability would go a LOOONG way, cause like... The pen is great and all but the ground doesnt really care so much and seeing as thats what it usually hits......
  • #25
    2 years ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951

    Target size definitely should be looked at at some point. The fact that mediums have a size of 22 while heavies are only 26 is pretty questionable.

  • #26
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited August 2017

    @Lazarus said:
    We've got target sizes to utilize and we've completely ignored them as a stat. I think it's time to dip in to that well.

    Yeah absolutely. A wide variety of units have strange target sizes. I feel like the Tiger shouldn't have the same size of 26 as the IS2 and KT, especially ever since the Pershing was added and its only 24. Yeah its got less less health but its much quicker and has the best all-around main gun in the game.

    Anyone know if theres anything preventing something from having a target size of say 22.5? All of the vehicles seem to have whole numbers, but infantry models obviously have decimals in their target sizes all the time. Not limiting to whole numbers for vehicles could help a little.

  • #27
    2 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited August 2017
    @thedarkarmadillo
    Regardless of the armor (that may even be adjusted and nerfed) OST DOES NOT need an heavy tank...tiger is their heavy.
    Panther has to be accurate both standing still and on the move, and eventually get a ROF OR damage buff.
    It's a (should be) flanker and a tank hunter, not a spearhead tank.

    Such high armor with such bad stats is nonsense, is
    1) Unreliable as it mostly hits the ground
    2) Even if it mostly hit the enemy has a slow reload of 7 seconds, compare that to firefly reload of 8 seconds that has 200 damage and is uber accurate (even on the move with the 0.75)
    3) Frustrating to counter for allies in larger modes, where massed can bypass the reliability and be a super durable blob of tanks that involes 0 skills.
  • #28
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 692
    edited August 2017

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    Regardless of the armor (that may even be adjusted and nerfed) OST DOES NOT need an heavy tank...tiger is their heavy.
    Panther has to be accurate both standing still and on the move, and eventually get a ROF OR damage buff.
    It's a (should be) flanker and a tank hunter, not a spearhead tank.

    Such high armor with such bad stats is nonsense, is
    1) Unreliable as it mostly hits the ground
    2) Even if it mostly hit the enemy has a slow reload of 7 seconds, compare that to firefly reload of 8 seconds that has 200 damage and is uber accurate (even on the move with the 0.75)
    3) Frustrating to counter for allies in larger modes, where massed can bypass the reliability and be a super durable blob of tanks that involes 0 skills.

    The fire fly has little armour low speed and long reload to compensate the damage pen and accuracy. And the accuracy including moving acc is taking a hit in the fall patch. We will see how it turns out, but all in all balance at work here.

    The panther is fast has high armour and high pen. The 7 second reload and the standaard 0.5 moving acc balance this out. You want to buff its 2 negatives in term of being a td without adressing other stats. Its in a spot that even with the slightest buff it becomes op imo.

  • #29
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,985
    High armour is a relative thing when all Allied TDs are built to counter KTs and therefore have sky-high pen values. That is the reason why Axis tanks in general perform so poorly. They were meant to be durable. They are not anymore.
  • #30
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 692
    edited August 2017
    True but reverting it so the kt goes unchallenged and the su85/jackson/firefly must bounce of panthers more then 50% of the time just because the p4s got hurt. Is not an option.

    Just make it so that the heavy tds excel vs heavies and suck vs mediums. And medium tds suck vs heavies and excel vs mediums (this only fits the su76 and stugs)
  • #31
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    To be honest, I do find the coh2 revamp mod was definitely on the right tracks to balancing the armour matchup.

    Giving the panther better accuracy and upping its damage to 200, pushed it into the role of a heavy tank/premium medium killer, the stug and jp4 were then pushed into the role of dedicated anti-stock medium/light tank destroyers by lowering their penetration.

    In combination with the tiger having its damage also upped to 200, the jackson could be given a much needed durability boost, but without it suddenly dominating anything short of a kt in every engagement, as it was still vunerable to fighting panthers and tigers without being properly supported.

    From there, if the target sizes were revised, the heavier tds (su-85, jackson and firefly) could be pushed into being most effective against the brumbar/panther and the heavies. Whilst mediums and lights could have their target sizes reduced to prevent them being so consistently sniped off by the heavier tds like in the current live game.

    SOV then has the su-76 for countering mediums/lights. The UKF has the excellent 6 pounder, piats and the AEC in the early-mid game, whilst having either the churchill or comet, both of which will bully any p4's, puma's etc. during the lategame, the firefly of course handling the heavier threats like panthers, KT'setc.

    Its only USF that struggled with this overall game design as they have only a single dedicated at vehicle, as the new stuart is more of a support unit than a light td.

    Of course that could be solved by either making the m10 stock and replacing its role in the armour commander with another unit/ability, or revamping the USF tech tree into something more sensible and less gimmicky.

    To sum up the wall of text, the only way to balance the panther, is to really define its role. Otherwise it either enjoys too the best of most stats and dominates all armour, or as it is currently, becomes little more than an high cost block of very mobile steel.

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