[USF] [1v1] Smoke Grenades

#1
1 year ago

In the chance that the devs at Relic still remotely care about this game, I'm gonna repeat what I said on the FBP thread. USF smoke grenades should be changed somehow:

  1. My solution was to increase the cost to 30.
  2. Another solution was to transfer the duties of smoke grenades to rear ech after getting the grenades researched.

I think these are both viable solutions as it will prevent the liberal usage of smoke, and allow the ability to be used sparingly and tactically. USF already has the best access to smoke especially after getting the mortar. The only reason why so many USF players litterally howled to the moon for the mortar was for an indirect way to counter mgs. So use the smoke ability that it provides! Most Ostheer players go for at most 2 mgs. I understand the frustration of deal with a SPAM of mgs so that is why I don't want to get rid of smoke nades altogether. However, on the flip side, it's quite easy to kill isolated mgs that don't have much infantry support (due to all mp invested in mgs) and steal the mg. Then the Ost player will be in a world of hurt as they don't traditionally have garrison clearing units early in their build vs USF.

Here is my micro tax assessment. Microing a mobile mg with limited infantry support takes a lot of map awareness. Setting it up isn't simple as pushing around some riflemen. You have to sense where your enemies are located to cover which approaches that are most likely going to be attacked. If I catch a squad running roughly into the center of its arc, I EXPECT that mg to hold its position WITHOUT ANY FURTHER MICRO INVOLVED (if there are no flanking units or other support.) It means I've guessed correctly the path taken by the enemy and hence I should be rewarded for correct judgment. I don't want to see a skilless reaction of "just throw smoke" antics from the USF player every goddamn time he runs into an mg without support. Because when he does that, I have to micro my mg twice (first the initial setup then the relocation) whereas the USF player micros the riflemen just one time. In a worse case, if a gren is caught in the smoke, you'll need to reposition it too. The position you just prepared has basically collapsed due to a braindead throw of 15 munis. The USF player just caused you to micro your units far more than he does. After the USF player throws smoke all he needs to do is attack move his horde of infantry. The Ostheer player has to quickly relocate everything backwards and keep track of all enemy infantry and position the mg and get grens to focus fire units that are likely to be able to get past the arc of the mg. While Ost inf are backpedalling they cannot return fire as USF infantry can as they advance on the position. In summary, there is almost no reward to defensive play vs USF if they can spam dirt cheap smoke.

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Comments

  • #2
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,779
    I wouldnt mind seeing smoke off rifles, perhaps on officers and paras but i would say no to it on RE as that opens up the potential of smoke and flamers on a single, cheap unit
  • #3
    1 year ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    I wouldnt mind seeing smoke off rifles, perhaps on officers and paras but i would say no to it on RE as that opens up the potential of smoke and flamers on a single, cheap unit

    I like the idea of officers and Pathfinders having it. You can use them to scout ahead and prepare a smoke strike for your Para assault, and it would finally put the smoke grenade on a unit with a friggin bolt action instead of a Garand (I know, I know. Balance over realism but that has always disturbed me)

  • #4
    1 year ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951

    Yeah, smoke on Officer and Pathfinders would work well, plus it would encourage using the mortar's smoke a bit more rather than blobbing into MGs and using smoke as an Oh Shit button. To a lesser degree, same with Heavy Cav's BS early insta-pop

  • #5
    1 year ago

    Totally forgot about RE flamers. Yeah that would be an op combo.

  • #6
    1 year ago
    Agree with everything said.
  • #7
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721

    USF infantry smoke should not disable the weapon of vehicles especially once they leave the smoke.

  • #8
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited August 2017

    @Vipper said:
    USF infantry smoke should not disable the weapon of vehicles especially once they leave the smoke.

    Why not?

    +1 to moving the smoke-nades off of riflemen though.

  • #9
    1 year ago

    Yikes!
    USF getting a sniper with this crazy idea or something in return?

  • #10
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @Vipper said:
    USF infantry smoke should not disable the weapon of vehicles especially once they leave the smoke.

    Why not?

    +1 to moving the smoke-nades off of riflemen though.

    Why yes?
    other smoke grenades do not have lingering affect and they are usually available to elite infantry and not mainline infantry.

  • #11
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,587

    @Vipper said:

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @Vipper said:
    USF infantry smoke should not disable the weapon of vehicles especially once they leave the smoke.

    Why not?

    +1 to moving the smoke-nades off of riflemen though.

    Why yes?
    other smoke grenades do not have lingering affect and they are usually available to elite infantry and not mainline infantry.

    Other smoke nades are placed on factions with cheaper infantry and plenty of supporting troops from get go, don't require side tech and aren't on a faction that theoretically should pull all it needs with basic infantry with proper upgrades and weapon kit.

    Also, given how this never was an issue for top level 1v1 ever, its still not an issue now.

    Someone simply lost to this once and made a thread about it and that someone is well known for not touching allies at all.

    Rifles kit is supposed to be better due to lock out from any other support weapons early game, yes, mortars were implemented, but only to give USF fuel free option to counter certain stuff other factions don't need fuel for, like garrisons or HMGs.

    The fact that people stopped using smoke nades the very moment mortar was implemented only further proves that there is nothing wrong with them.

    Was it otherwise, it would be meta, as any other actually op stuff in the past.

  • #12
    1 year ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited August 2017

    @Katitof said:

    @Vipper said:

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @Vipper said:
    USF infantry smoke should not disable the weapon of vehicles especially once they leave the smoke.

    Why not?

    +1 to moving the smoke-nades off of riflemen though.

    Why yes?
    other smoke grenades do not have lingering affect and they are usually available to elite infantry and not mainline infantry.

    Other smoke nades are placed on factions with cheaper infantry and plenty of supporting troops from get go, don't require side tech and aren't on a faction that theoretically should pull all it needs with basic infantry with proper upgrades and weapon kit.

    Also, given how this never was an issue for top level 1v1 ever, its still not an issue now.

    Someone simply lost to this once and made a thread about it and that someone is well known for not touching allies at all.

    Rifles kit is supposed to be better due to lock out from any other support weapons early game, yes, mortars were implemented, but only to give USF fuel free option to counter certain stuff other factions don't need fuel for, like garrisons or HMGs.

    The fact that people stopped using smoke nades the very moment mortar was implemented only further proves that there is nothing wrong with them.

    Was it otherwise, it would be meta, as any other actually op stuff in the past.

    If you're referring to me, I do have roughly 300 games under my belt as USF and SU combined. And smoke nades are still commonly used by many USF players. Tell me the other factions that get smoke on mainlines. "Rifles kit is supposed to be better due to lack of support weapons" is completely contradicted by the second part of your sentence that the mortar was given. Clearly, your USF bias is showing and everyone knows it, Katitof. How do u know that nobody uses smoke nades anymore? The excuse that USF needs a fuel free option is bs. Maybe Ostheer should get free units as a prize for teching to help combat the poor map control it has early game? Maybe Ost should get a free pioneer with every piece of armor it makes? Factions have differences.

  • #13
    1 year ago

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    @Katitof said:

    @Vipper said:

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @Vipper said:
    USF infantry smoke should not disable the weapon of vehicles especially once they leave the smoke.

    Why not?

    +1 to moving the smoke-nades off of riflemen though.

    Why yes?
    other smoke grenades do not have lingering affect and they are usually available to elite infantry and not mainline infantry.

    Other smoke nades are placed on factions with cheaper infantry and plenty of supporting troops from get go, don't require side tech and aren't on a faction that theoretically should pull all it needs with basic infantry with proper upgrades and weapon kit.

    Also, given how this never was an issue for top level 1v1 ever, its still not an issue now.

    Someone simply lost to this once and made a thread about it and that someone is well known for not touching allies at all.

    Rifles kit is supposed to be better due to lock out from any other support weapons early game, yes, mortars were implemented, but only to give USF fuel free option to counter certain stuff other factions don't need fuel for, like garrisons or HMGs.

    The fact that people stopped using smoke nades the very moment mortar was implemented only further proves that there is nothing wrong with them.

    Was it otherwise, it would be meta, as any other actually op stuff in the past.

    If you're referring to me, I do have roughly 300 games under my belt as USF and SU combined. And smoke nades are still commonly used by many USF players. Tell me the other factions that get smoke on mainlines. "Rifles kit is supposed to be better due to lack of support weapons" is completely contradicted by the second part of your sentence that the mortar was given. Clearly, your USF bias is showing and everyone knows it, Katitof. How do u know that nobody uses smoke nades anymore? The excuse that USF needs a fuel free option is bs. Maybe Ostheer should get free units as a prize for teching to help combat the poor map control it has early game? Maybe Ost should get a free pioneer with every piece of armor it makes? Factions have differences.

    Hardly anyone uses smoke grenade anymore. Smoke grenades is something you tech after you have at on the field. Going early grenades is almost an auto-loss. USF is terrible at the moment.

  • #14
    1 year ago

    @company14u2 said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    @Katitof said:

    @Vipper said:

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @Vipper said:
    USF infantry smoke should not disable the weapon of vehicles especially once they leave the smoke.

    Why not?

    +1 to moving the smoke-nades off of riflemen though.

    Why yes?
    other smoke grenades do not have lingering affect and they are usually available to elite infantry and not mainline infantry.

    Other smoke nades are placed on factions with cheaper infantry and plenty of supporting troops from get go, don't require side tech and aren't on a faction that theoretically should pull all it needs with basic infantry with proper upgrades and weapon kit.

    Also, given how this never was an issue for top level 1v1 ever, its still not an issue now.

    Someone simply lost to this once and made a thread about it and that someone is well known for not touching allies at all.

    Rifles kit is supposed to be better due to lock out from any other support weapons early game, yes, mortars were implemented, but only to give USF fuel free option to counter certain stuff other factions don't need fuel for, like garrisons or HMGs.

    The fact that people stopped using smoke nades the very moment mortar was implemented only further proves that there is nothing wrong with them.

    Was it otherwise, it would be meta, as any other actually op stuff in the past.

    If you're referring to me, I do have roughly 300 games under my belt as USF and SU combined. And smoke nades are still commonly used by many USF players. Tell me the other factions that get smoke on mainlines. "Rifles kit is supposed to be better due to lack of support weapons" is completely contradicted by the second part of your sentence that the mortar was given. Clearly, your USF bias is showing and everyone knows it, Katitof. How do u know that nobody uses smoke nades anymore? The excuse that USF needs a fuel free option is bs. Maybe Ostheer should get free units as a prize for teching to help combat the poor map control it has early game? Maybe Ost should get a free pioneer with every piece of armor it makes? Factions have differences.

    Hardly anyone uses smoke grenade anymore. Smoke grenades is something you tech after you have at on the field. Going early grenades is almost an auto-loss. USF is terrible at the moment.

    Clearly u arent reading the title. 1v1 games still have plenty smoke nades

  • #15
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited August 2017

    @Vipper said:
    Why yes?
    other smoke grenades do not have lingering affect and they are usually available to elite infantry and not mainline infantry.

    Because US is already the worst at fighting tanks (m10 spam aside). Having your weapon disabled by a manually targeted ability that only works if the smoke grenade hits the tank directly doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

    In a world where Stugs and Paks can stun-lock tanks with shots that auto-aim, this really isn't a problem. I mean to get the desired effect your talking about with a smoke grenade, you literally need to block your own vision on the tank.... Oh the humanity how will the tank ever survive?

    I literally only try this on purpose when a P4 surprises a lone rifle squad in a bad spot. Gives you some cover for retreat. I think needing to pay 25 fuel just for grenades earns the US that tiny benefit.

  • #16
    1 year ago

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    @company14u2 said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    @Katitof said:

    @Vipper said:

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @Vipper said:
    USF infantry smoke should not disable the weapon of vehicles especially once they leave the smoke.

    Why not?

    +1 to moving the smoke-nades off of riflemen though.

    Why yes?
    other smoke grenades do not have lingering affect and they are usually available to elite infantry and not mainline infantry.

    Other smoke nades are placed on factions with cheaper infantry and plenty of supporting troops from get go, don't require side tech and aren't on a faction that theoretically should pull all it needs with basic infantry with proper upgrades and weapon kit.

    Also, given how this never was an issue for top level 1v1 ever, its still not an issue now.

    Someone simply lost to this once and made a thread about it and that someone is well known for not touching allies at all.

    Rifles kit is supposed to be better due to lock out from any other support weapons early game, yes, mortars were implemented, but only to give USF fuel free option to counter certain stuff other factions don't need fuel for, like garrisons or HMGs.

    The fact that people stopped using smoke nades the very moment mortar was implemented only further proves that there is nothing wrong with them.

    Was it otherwise, it would be meta, as any other actually op stuff in the past.

    If you're referring to me, I do have roughly 300 games under my belt as USF and SU combined. And smoke nades are still commonly used by many USF players. Tell me the other factions that get smoke on mainlines. "Rifles kit is supposed to be better due to lack of support weapons" is completely contradicted by the second part of your sentence that the mortar was given. Clearly, your USF bias is showing and everyone knows it, Katitof. How do u know that nobody uses smoke nades anymore? The excuse that USF needs a fuel free option is bs. Maybe Ostheer should get free units as a prize for teching to help combat the poor map control it has early game? Maybe Ost should get a free pioneer with every piece of armor it makes? Factions have differences.

    Hardly anyone uses smoke grenade anymore. Smoke grenades is something you tech after you have at on the field. Going early grenades is almost an auto-loss. USF is terrible at the moment.

    Clearly u arent reading the title. 1v1 games still have plenty smoke nades

    Usf is weak in every game mode. Especially vs opw.

  • #17
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,587

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    @company14u2 said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    @Katitof said:

    @Vipper said:

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @Vipper said:
    USF infantry smoke should not disable the weapon of vehicles especially once they leave the smoke.

    Why not?

    +1 to moving the smoke-nades off of riflemen though.

    Why yes?
    other smoke grenades do not have lingering affect and they are usually available to elite infantry and not mainline infantry.

    Other smoke nades are placed on factions with cheaper infantry and plenty of supporting troops from get go, don't require side tech and aren't on a faction that theoretically should pull all it needs with basic infantry with proper upgrades and weapon kit.

    Also, given how this never was an issue for top level 1v1 ever, its still not an issue now.

    Someone simply lost to this once and made a thread about it and that someone is well known for not touching allies at all.

    Rifles kit is supposed to be better due to lock out from any other support weapons early game, yes, mortars were implemented, but only to give USF fuel free option to counter certain stuff other factions don't need fuel for, like garrisons or HMGs.

    The fact that people stopped using smoke nades the very moment mortar was implemented only further proves that there is nothing wrong with them.

    Was it otherwise, it would be meta, as any other actually op stuff in the past.

    If you're referring to me, I do have roughly 300 games under my belt as USF and SU combined. And smoke nades are still commonly used by many USF players. Tell me the other factions that get smoke on mainlines. "Rifles kit is supposed to be better due to lack of support weapons" is completely contradicted by the second part of your sentence that the mortar was given. Clearly, your USF bias is showing and everyone knows it, Katitof. How do u know that nobody uses smoke nades anymore? The excuse that USF needs a fuel free option is bs. Maybe Ostheer should get free units as a prize for teching to help combat the poor map control it has early game? Maybe Ost should get a free pioneer with every piece of armor it makes? Factions have differences.

    Hardly anyone uses smoke grenade anymore. Smoke grenades is something you tech after you have at on the field. Going early grenades is almost an auto-loss. USF is terrible at the moment.

    Clearly u arent reading the title. 1v1 games still have plenty smoke nades

    Yet I don't see Hans or Sib or Von use them at all.

    If it can't find its place in competitive meta, its not an issue.
    Again, smoke nades went extinct specifically from 1s once mortar was introduced.

    Something that isn't used at all competitively can't be op, sorry.

  • #18
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,779
    So logically the DSHK wasnt op until the maxim was nerfed even though it has not changed once in 70 years, but nerfing the maxim made it OP...meaning we can buff the maxim instead of nerfing the DSHK?
  • #19
    1 year ago

    @company14u2 said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    @company14u2 said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    @Katitof said:

    @Vipper said:

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @Vipper said:
    USF infantry smoke should not disable the weapon of vehicles especially once they leave the smoke.

    Why not?

    +1 to moving the smoke-nades off of riflemen though.

    Why yes?
    other smoke grenades do not have lingering affect and they are usually available to elite infantry and not mainline infantry.

    Other smoke nades are placed on factions with cheaper infantry and plenty of supporting troops from get go, don't require side tech and aren't on a faction that theoretically should pull all it needs with basic infantry with proper upgrades and weapon kit.

    Also, given how this never was an issue for top level 1v1 ever, its still not an issue now.

    Someone simply lost to this once and made a thread about it and that someone is well known for not touching allies at all.

    Rifles kit is supposed to be better due to lock out from any other support weapons early game, yes, mortars were implemented, but only to give USF fuel free option to counter certain stuff other factions don't need fuel for, like garrisons or HMGs.

    The fact that people stopped using smoke nades the very moment mortar was implemented only further proves that there is nothing wrong with them.

    Was it otherwise, it would be meta, as any other actually op stuff in the past.

    If you're referring to me, I do have roughly 300 games under my belt as USF and SU combined. And smoke nades are still commonly used by many USF players. Tell me the other factions that get smoke on mainlines. "Rifles kit is supposed to be better due to lack of support weapons" is completely contradicted by the second part of your sentence that the mortar was given. Clearly, your USF bias is showing and everyone knows it, Katitof. How do u know that nobody uses smoke nades anymore? The excuse that USF needs a fuel free option is bs. Maybe Ostheer should get free units as a prize for teching to help combat the poor map control it has early game? Maybe Ost should get a free pioneer with every piece of armor it makes? Factions have differences.

    Hardly anyone uses smoke grenade anymore. Smoke grenades is something you tech after you have at on the field. Going early grenades is almost an auto-loss. USF is terrible at the moment.

    Clearly u arent reading the title. 1v1 games still have plenty smoke nades

    Usf is weak in every game mode. Especially vs opw.

    You don't need as much smoke vs okw.

  • #20
    1 year ago

    @Katitof said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    @company14u2 said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    @Katitof said:

    @Vipper said:

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @Vipper said:
    USF infantry smoke should not disable the weapon of vehicles especially once they leave the smoke.

    Why not?

    +1 to moving the smoke-nades off of riflemen though.

    Why yes?
    other smoke grenades do not have lingering affect and they are usually available to elite infantry and not mainline infantry.

    Other smoke nades are placed on factions with cheaper infantry and plenty of supporting troops from get go, don't require side tech and aren't on a faction that theoretically should pull all it needs with basic infantry with proper upgrades and weapon kit.

    Also, given how this never was an issue for top level 1v1 ever, its still not an issue now.

    Someone simply lost to this once and made a thread about it and that someone is well known for not touching allies at all.

    Rifles kit is supposed to be better due to lock out from any other support weapons early game, yes, mortars were implemented, but only to give USF fuel free option to counter certain stuff other factions don't need fuel for, like garrisons or HMGs.

    The fact that people stopped using smoke nades the very moment mortar was implemented only further proves that there is nothing wrong with them.

    Was it otherwise, it would be meta, as any other actually op stuff in the past.

    If you're referring to me, I do have roughly 300 games under my belt as USF and SU combined. And smoke nades are still commonly used by many USF players. Tell me the other factions that get smoke on mainlines. "Rifles kit is supposed to be better due to lack of support weapons" is completely contradicted by the second part of your sentence that the mortar was given. Clearly, your USF bias is showing and everyone knows it, Katitof. How do u know that nobody uses smoke nades anymore? The excuse that USF needs a fuel free option is bs. Maybe Ostheer should get free units as a prize for teching to help combat the poor map control it has early game? Maybe Ost should get a free pioneer with every piece of armor it makes? Factions have differences.

    Hardly anyone uses smoke grenade anymore. Smoke grenades is something you tech after you have at on the field. Going early grenades is almost an auto-loss. USF is terrible at the moment.

    Clearly u arent reading the title. 1v1 games still have plenty smoke nades

    Yet I don't see Hans or Sib or Von use them at all.

    If it can't find its place in competitive meta, its not an issue.
    Again, smoke nades went extinct specifically from 1s once mortar was introduced.

    Something that isn't used at all competitively can't be op, sorry.

    If this was the logic, then we shouldn't worry about weak doctrines and trying to fix them. I recall you asking for buffs for the weaker USF commanders. Maybe we should just ignore them cuz they aren't meta.

  • #21
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,587
    edited August 2017

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    If this was the logic, then we shouldn't worry about weak doctrines and trying to fix them. I recall you asking for buffs for the weaker USF commanders. Maybe we should just ignore them cuz they aren't meta.

    There is a difference between bringing non competitive and underpowered units and commanders into play to allow for broader gameplay and playstyles options and whining about non issue ability which always was there, pretending its op in any way all of sudden.

    I'll let you figure that difference by yourself.

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    You don't need as much smoke vs okw.

    I'll assume you completely missed the patch last year, which gave HMG to OKW as base unit.

  • #22
    1 year ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017
    Yeah MG34 so OP pls nurf guiz. I dont see top 1 v 1ers like Hans using it as meta so its so obviously not a problen.

    OKW is strong because of the Volk carry and FHQ. Anyone who says anything else just has a hate boner for the faction

    If the bonus effect of smoke is so insignificant and useless, nobody will notice once its gone. So removing it surely is fine, right?
  • #23
    1 year ago

    6 minute Luchs not a problem? K.

  • #24
    1 year ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017
    edited August 2017

    The 6 minute Luchs that's made viable by the map control provided by Volks?

    Edit to make it clear I'm not being an asshole.

    For Allies:
    Weaker Volks means needing less dedicated AI power. Less dedicated AI power means more resources for ATGs, or even AT infantry because you can actually hold your own. More AT means less stress about a Luchs.

    For Axis:
    Weaker Volks means dedicating more to micro, to specialized AI and to seizing map control. This means less resources available for rushing Luchs. This means you need more to protect a Raketen. This means a Luchs is vulnerable to AT inf, ATGs and allied lights.

  • #25
    1 year ago

    While it's pretty obvious volks need a nerf, they're not really a problem until they get STG's and start vetting like mad. Part of the problem is the self-healing at vet 3, but the no-brainer nature of the STG upgrade is to blame as well. If it gave 2 STG's and 3 mp40's so they lost their long range dps, it'd be a lot more manageable.

    As for the luchs, it's been dictating the meta for a while now simply because the nearly invincible kubels can freely cap at will while volks and sturms rush your cutoff and prevent you from making any gains. Then the luchs comes out, and you've got shit all to stop it unless you've managed to push the cutoff camping horde off and actually teched.

  • #26
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721
    edited August 2017

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @Vipper said:
    Why yes?
    other smoke grenades do not have lingering affect and they are usually available to elite infantry and not mainline infantry.

    Because US is already the worst at fighting tanks (m10 spam aside). Having your weapon disabled by a manually targeted ability that only works if the smoke grenade hits the tank directly doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

    In a world where Stugs and Paks can stun-lock tanks with shots that auto-aim, this really isn't a problem. I mean to get the desired effect your talking about with a smoke grenade, you literally need to block your own vision on the tank.... Oh the humanity how will the tank ever survive?

    I literally only try this on purpose when a P4 surprises a lone rifle squad in a bad spot. Gives you some cover for retreat. I think needing to pay 25 fuel just for grenades earns the US that tiny benefit.

    The argument that riflemen should be OP because paks and Stugs are OP, holds very little water indeed.

    If paks and Stug are OP they should be fixed.

    Riflemen should also be fixed, a unit that was designed to fight with little support weapons that now has easy access to them.

    Riflemen's grenades have little to no reason to perform better than the smoke grenades available only to elite infantry of other factions. The fact that riflemen, a mainline infantry even have access to smoke grenades is huge advantage on its own.

    I really do not see how one would agree in removing the smoke grenades from riflemen on one hand but nerfing them on the other if they stayed.

  • #27
    1 year ago

    Rifles have smoke because USF is the only faction without a non-doctrinal secondary infantry unit a la penals, PG's, Obers, or Sappers.

  • #28
    1 year ago

    @Vipper said:

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @Vipper said:
    Why yes?
    other smoke grenades do not have lingering affect and they are usually available to elite infantry and not mainline infantry.

    Because US is already the worst at fighting tanks (m10 spam aside). Having your weapon disabled by a manually targeted ability that only works if the smoke grenade hits the tank directly doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

    In a world where Stugs and Paks can stun-lock tanks with shots that auto-aim, this really isn't a problem. I mean to get the desired effect your talking about with a smoke grenade, you literally need to block your own vision on the tank.... Oh the humanity how will the tank ever survive?

    I literally only try this on purpose when a P4 surprises a lone rifle squad in a bad spot. Gives you some cover for retreat. I think needing to pay 25 fuel just for grenades earns the US that tiny benefit.

    The argument that riflemen should be OP because paks and Stugs are OP, holds very little water indeed.

    If paks and Stug are OP they should be fixed.

    Riflemen should also be fixed, a unit that was designed to fight with little support weapons that now has easy access to them.

    Riflemen's grenades have little to no reason to perform better than the smoke grenades available only to elite infantry of other factions. The fact that riflemen, a mainline infantry even have access to smoke grenades is huge advantage on its own.

    I really do not see how one would agree in removing the smoke grenades from riflemen on one hand but nerfing them on the other if they stayed.

    Hardly anyone believes rifles are op. If you want rifles nerfed, usf would need other options like: snipers, late game armor, non-doctrinal rocket arty, etc. In the end, if relic cared, usf would receive more buffs than nerfs. Or okw might get toned down; however, I don't think we will see an official relic patch. Next patch, will probably apply to tournaments only, not the official game.

    Guys, stop with the dislike war. I do not dislike anyone's post.

  • #29
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268

    @Vipper said:
    The argument that riflemen should be OP because paks and Stugs are OP, holds very little water indeed.

    How is it OP to be able to apply a stun effect to a tank with a non-lock on ability that also obscures that tank from your vision?

  • #30
    1 year ago

    @SkysTheLimit ha detto:

    @Vipper said:
    The argument that riflemen should be OP because paks and Stugs are OP, holds very little water indeed.

    How is it OP to be able to apply a stun effect to a tank with a non-lock on ability that also obscures that tank from your vision?

    It is when
    1) It's on a unit that has big field presence
    2) Elite units have the short range version of it dumbed down whcih effect end as the tank move
    3) Ground attack is a thing.

  • #31
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited August 2017

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    1) It's on a unit that has big field presence

    Hence why I already agreed to moving the smoke of riflemen. Just not changing the smoke.

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    2) Elite units have the short range version of it dumbed down whcih effect end as the tank move

    US Elites don't.

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    3) Ground attack is a thing.

    Works both ways. The stun effect the smoke grenade applies is 0 vision and -50% movement speed, no reason you can't fire back. Unless the ability guide on coh2.org is wrong, that's my only reference since I've never had a US player do this to my tank.

    My argument isn't that its necessary, I just see zero reason to remove it.

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