Soviet mortar smoke ability [all game modes]

#1
1 year ago
Hi all,

I wanted to dicuss the soviet mortar. This mortar is the most lackluster mortar in the game imo. Its rof is dreadfull and on top off that it cant hit anything really. Its barrage is nothing special and the smoke barrage as well. Plus the flares are just to expensive imo.

Dont worry i am not aiming to get the precision strike back.

I want to buff its utility. Since its only good at forcing off a static unit with the threat off near hits and causing no bleed whatsoever. I want to reduce the recharge of its smoke ability.

This will only add utility and incentive to build the mortar in the first place.

Countering mg42 spam openings without outright wiping them.

Allow cons to close in the late game without taking staggering losses on aproach.

Save a tank being snared more often with smoke.

Please share your thoughts and ideas on this.

Comments

  • #2
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited August 2017

    I don't think it's too bad of a mortar, but I don't understand why Sov and Wher mortars cost the same. I tend to get much more out of the Grw than the PM. The PM has slightly better accuracy but it still shoots more than 2.5 seconds slower (on barrage and on auto-fire).

    It's designed to be able to fight off grens and Mg42s, since both are so static, but I find it's only good at that in the really early game. If you can wait til CP2, it's a little redundant with the 120mm, as that thing also takes ages to fire but makes up for it with a massive aoe, making it ideal for support weapons.

  • #3
    1 year ago
    It only forces a relocation off its intended targets. They have a very large window to move away without taking any damage and setup again a bit further away.

    It rarely hits anything and it fires very slowly. Its flare costs 40 muni. Pios have great sight range for 0 muni wich boost ost mortar even more.

    Against okw its even less usefull imo. Okw being mobile agressive and having cloaking at gun. Leig just reinforces even if it somehow looses a model to the mortar while as always its near a hq building. The leig snipes the mortar models away in return.

    Its rof is really bad. Its slightly better accuracy to me it seems is not actually better since it fires at smaller squads.
    The smoke barage i feel schould be its redeeming factor for such bad rof/dps.
  • #4
    1 year ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017

    The flare is a low-key god tier ability. The difference Line of Sight makes to mortar accuracy is pretty substantial - and if you pop it over Osts mortar you'll very quickly win that duel and continue on your merry way, shelling their other units. I definitely don't think it's an investment for a Gren heavy/sniper build, but if they go in on their team weapons (and it's Ost so that's a good bet) you can usually get what you paid for by mid game (though yes, the 120 will always always always be the superior choice).

    I think the biggest issue the mortar is going to run in to in live and upcoming patches is currently T2 is just garbage. The Maxim has no idea what it wants to be and is therefore nothing, the ZiS gun is a niche unit at best while the SU-76 continues to 76, and all that leaves is the poor little mortar who just doesn't have enough impact to justify building an entire tier structure. On top of that, all you'll have to defend it are doctrinal infantry unit and cons which is a recipe for disaster.

    That said yes, this is a total MP sink vs OKW. Just don't even get it until they nerf the LeiGs autofire range and Volks performance.

  • #5
    1 year ago

    I just had another few games and used the t2 extensivly.

    What stand out to me is how long a mg42/34 can keep fighting while being barraged. A maxim needs to move the second the first round hits from the ost mortar or its most likely wiped. Dispite haveing 6 men. The ost mortar does not even need counter barrage to counter the soviet mortar dispite it having 6 men. I needed 2 to get anything done at all. 1 makes almost no impact on the game what so ever.

    My maxim could not stop a flamer pio and gren squad both were supressed and crawling directly at it in the center of the fire arc. They almost wiped it before my first mortar ''nearly'' hit them. The grens gotta a rifle gren off before being supressed.

    I need 2 from both for them to just do their job. Both the maxim and the mortar do not preform at the level of cost by a large margin. Their supposed durability is made irrelevant with their lack of meaningfull dps and supression. the get wiped a lot more easy then the low model ost crew. This is also in part due to soviets not having good longe range units in general.

    Imo the maxim should be 240/230mp max or restored to nearly former stats. the mortar should be 200mp max or get a dps increase. cons should be 220mp no more. They all are that bad when compared even with all having 6 men its just ridicoules. i just hope they will eventuale pick up the balance attempts.

    I know this is a rant. but its just sad to see t2 dead.

  • #6
    1 year ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017

    Do you perhaps have a replay of a Sov mortar not providing meaningful dps? Unlike most times - I'm not asking as a matter of doubt, I believe you when you say it and I agree for the most part. I just want to see what you would consider to be not meaningful dps and make sure we're on the same page. As a matter of contention though, I don't agree with your assessment of how easy it is to wipe Maxims/Mortars with the Ost mortar unless they're in yellow cover, or Ost has doubled up on their mortars.

  • #7
    1 year ago
    @Lazarus

    I feel now i overstated that part. But what i tried to say is that the first mortar hit does good damage so very little follow up is needed. The ost mortar is very accurate and fires faster.

    The soviet mortar fires realy slow and misses more.
  • #8
    1 year ago
    @Lazarus

    I am a bit tired so i cant remember all of it. But i did put one off them in yellow cover a few times.
  • #9
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721

    All mortars deploy smoke way to slow especially compared to smoke grenades and off map smoke.

    The Mortars should be able to deploy smoke faster and/or to longer range.

  • #10
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited September 2017

    Guys, don't fix what ain't broke !
    A cut of mp price of 20/25 mp is the simplest solution, we don't need to make 120 mm obsolete (and kill the last few good soviet doctrines) nor rework the entire team weapons department.
    It's not like sov mortar underperform for the NEEDS of the faction, but for the price it has.

    @Vipper I do agree mortars smoke round should drop faster.
    In a scenario in which mainlines don't have access to smoke and need to invest on a platform, rather than simply throw smoke according to their needs.
    And as a usf player i would 100% trade rifle smoke with nondoc sandbags.

  • #11
    1 year ago

    @SAY_MY_NAME

    exactly.

    from what is ve seen and what i believe @thedarkarmadillo said is that durability weighs less then dps. So the price should reflect that.

    soviet squads have 1/3 more hp per squad then ost does. And from the numbers i see ost has roughly 1/3 better dps then the soviet squads. Penals being the only exception. And in neary all of the cases the ost squads just do their job better for the same price.

  • #12
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited September 2017

    @TheLeveler83 ha detto:
    @SAY_MY_NAME

    exactly.

    from what is ve seen and what i believe @thedarkarmadillo said is that durability weighs less then dps. So the price should reflect that.

    soviet squads have 1/3 more hp per squad then ost does. And from the numbers i see ost has roughly 1/3 better dps then the soviet squads. Penals being the only exception. And in neary all of the cases the ost squads just do their job better for the same price.

    20/25 mp and it's kinda ok.
    2 extra models are great under small arms fire retreating, flare is good, 220 mp circa is kinda okeish imho.
    An addictional buff could be remove the 2 man limit, to emphisize durability, like 120mm, not sure bout that but i have got this idea.
    But that goes with several changes i advcated for a long time, like the Swap of roles between penals and conscripts, with penals being close range osttruppen (mosin nagant) like infantry with free molotov and hourra and tier 1 sniper/halftrack support + ptrs upgrade and cons being volkslike infantry (6 mosin with 90 muni upgrade for 3 stv, final starting dps similar to volks, dropping at range and obiviously with better starting stats but nerfed veterancy, so they don't start shit and become terminators) with increased price, supported by rebuffed maxim, zis 3 and cheaper mortar, with side teching that iave them rpg snare and anti building only satchel, in a scenario in which penals play can be supported by duska or 120mm (which doesn't mean giving to the most cost efficient infantry the best support weapons anymore) and guards call in (now proper elite with 1-2 dp28 as long range infantry to complement close range penals), as well as doctrinal ppsh upgrades.
    But i guess the "community" balance team has different, overcomplicated changes to experiment and implement and its working day and night to f**** up soviet roster and create brainless meta even more as soon as balance support start again.

    PS: and obiviously Greyhound gets the priority :s

  • #13
    1 year ago

    @Lazarus

    I am not sure if this will make the replay work. i did not edit/cut it. i dont know how.

    in this game imo esp in the earlier stages of the game you will see my maxim and mortar losing hp and models much much faster then the mg42 and ost mortar to mortar fire. you can see an mg42 remain steady like nothings happening under a barrage. while his single mortar did quite a number on my weapon teams, my mortars did very little to his weapon teams.

    My maxim will almost get wiped frontaly by a flame pio squad bunched up with a gren squad. the maxim supressed the pio eventualy but not the grens wich got off a rifle grenade. My su76 and mortar had to assist or it would most likely be wiped.
    An mg42 would have instapinned that if the situation was reversed. leaving no time to throw grenades.

    He was able to outtech me quite handely because i inflected minimal losses to him in the early game. he was good with keeping control of more of the map then me plus retreating right on time. he lost very little models in the early game. despite being flanked multyple times.

    Cons mortars and maxim just dont do enough to bring the hurt to ost in the early game unless rngesus favors you that day.

  • #14
    1 year ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017

    That's perfect, and I see exactly what you mean. There's a good example around 12ish minutes there's a barrage on a MG42 that does next to no damage.

    I feel like a good choice for the Soviet mortar would be to increase the shell travel speed so that it has a better chance of hitting Grenadiers that aren't constantly moving and also will strike first vs an Ost mortar. To fight team weapons, I'd say increasing the amount of time that the smoke cloud persists by about another two seconds. Combine this with making molotovs feasible again, and I feel that the Soviets will have an answer to MG42s even if the mortar itself is a little unreliable with the added bonus of not turning it in to a wipe machine. Unfortunately Osts 4 man squads don't give us a lot of wriggle room in that regard.

    The other option that I threw out in a discussion with Darkarmadillo a while ago (for all indirect) was to make it more accurate but only do 40 - 60 damage so it would cripple squads, rather than clean them up.

  • #15
    1 year ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 687
    edited September 2017
    Yeah it can use some more consictancy in its dps. The pm is just like cons in that regard "they can do wonders or they completely suck" there is no middle ground most of the time.

    Increasing the projectile speed would make it usefull vs mobile ost play. It wont be a mp sink anymore vs okw this way.

    I started as a 4v4 player :p back then i never thought molies were usefull. Mg42/grens etc could easily stand in the flames and take very little damage.
    So imo reducing the insane throwing time. Or let cons get it from vet 0 without teching for them. This with a apropriate price increase for each use ofcourse. This would make the molly not suck.

    Together this would work imo.
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