DBP Balance Feedback

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Comments

  • #122
    10 months ago

    https://www.coh2.org/replay/65046/dbp-1-1-lightning-war-vs-mechanized-suport-tactics

    I got outplayed by Von in this game pretty early but i think flare mines should be looked, i think they are too cheap and spammable, can make some serious damage, maybe making only a ability for combat engineers and not cons? and i think demos need a rework too, the wipe potential of them with only 1 click is too strong in my opinion, Von said that maybe could be added a limit to only 1 planted at the time or increasing its price to 120, i think it should have a limit of wipes like mines, like leaving only 1 model alive so it doesnt wipe the entire squad but there is still a risk to get wiped. Cons feel really good now vs ostheer, it is really easy to clear buildings with the molotov, now that it comes with the at nade its really good. Now guards can be called again in the field so its also a good thing for combining with t2. Also it felt really difficult to take cons/guards out of their sandbags but i have to keep testing that, because i could have gone a mortar o flamers.

    https://www.coh2.org/replay/65047/dbp-1-1-blitzkrieg-vs-lend-lease

    This game was better in my opinion, aparently grens with lmg are better vs cons behind the sandbags, had to go double hmg because of Von superior micro, Stugs perform really well, the medium tank fight seemed good, as Von said the same hotkey is for the t34 and the m4c sherman in the t4 structure for soviets, dshk seem to be good too, not overnerf or overpowered, maybe tweak a little its damage, gotta keep testing vs okw now and test stug, i think it wipes infantry models too often with its main cannon, and ju87 i think it still performs too well but gotta keep testing.

    https://www.coh2.org/replay/65048/dbp-1-1-guard-motor-coordination-tactics-vs-luftwaffe-supply

    Now i think the combo mortar+smoke+molotovs is really good to clear garrisons, now cons feel really good supported by t2, maxims seem ok, i had fuel control very early because redwings tried to go straigth t4 but it didnt work really well because he didnt go light vehicle and it was really easy to dominate with my t70 without 222 or pak, by the time he got his panther i had 2 t34/85s by the time, maybe should look the armor nerf for panther because you have to think that allied tanks are cheaper and there will be more numbers but gotta keep testing, and ostheer panther mgs feel kinda worse compared to okw ones, i think ostheer mgs should be buffed a little bit and okw panther mgs should be nerfed a little bit. Oh and demos still wiping full health squads :P. Also this was vs ostheer, maybe vs okw cons maybe will be less efective, maybe consider giving them a single dp28? Also the ostheer commander could be also reworked?

    https://www.coh2.org/replay/65049/dbp-1-1-mechanized-company-vs-lightning-war

    This game felt really weird, it seems that the hp buff for jackson was too much, it feels more like a medium tank without the anti infantry capabilities, the t4 rush felt really good but i felt kinda limited in one point, the repair speed of vet 0 pios is really slow, it was attacking with my tanks, receive a couple of shots with the jacksons, go back, repair for 5 min and repeat, i think vet 0 repair speed should be increased and maybe vet 2 bonus nerfed because it felt kinda bad having to make 4 pios to have a decent repair speed of tanks and i felt kinda limited also with pop cap, i had fuel to make more tanks but i was limited to 1 panther, 1 tiger and 1 brummbar and i feel that was insuficient to deal with the redwings tanks but i had ju87, that it seems like they overperform a little, so i was able to defend/attack properly but i have to test with doctrines that dont have ju87. Redwings told me that it feels kinda annoying having to use REs and rifles together but he thinks that forcing usf to use combined arms is kinda a cool idea, but this was vs ostheer i dont know how usf performs vs okw luchs rush, gotta test it, also he told me that if you dont go grenades it will be a mandatory to go mortar. Also i think there is a bug with pak twp because it takes too long to shot and algo pgren bundle nade seemed kinda buggy because of the same reason, other than that i think the idea behind teching its cool but i have to keep testing. Also it seems that the m7 mine isnt enough, i dont know how it works vs light vehicles but i activated a mine with my brummbar and it only slowed the motor and i think that should be punished, i think it should be given a normal mine. Gotta keep testing smoke with REs. Maybe also tweak down a little the stats of the mortar and give it more range?

  • #123
    10 months ago
    ReichsgardeReichsgar… Bad Tolz, Bayern, GermanyPosts: 107
    edited November 2017

    Look, as I have said multiple times previously, the question is not about which WM and OKW units we should be nerfing. In the case of Wehrmacht, nerfing is simply out of the question. The fact that Relic still thinks Axis factions are OP in anyway really bothers me as Allies and Soviets have very viable counters against whatever WM and OKW can throw at them. Let me just mention a few gross imbalances that currently ail the game:

    • UKF = AEC, USF = Stuart, Soviet = T70 --> Wehrmacht = 222 that doesn't do well against infantry or light tanks...
    • Sherman tanks having ammo switch, smoke grenade launchers and radio net abilities? Panzer IV only has Blitzkrieg.
    • British tanks throwing grenades out of commander's hatch when German tanks have so few abilities.
    • Very squishy WM and OKW infantry units (e.g. Grenadiers, Obersoldaten) who literally drop like flies so easily.
    • WM pioneers have to repair, build defensive structures, run back and forth to tech up, --> simply overburdened.
    • Both Zis and SU76 have dual artillery barrage modes whereas PaK 40 and Stug III have no such ability to speak of.

    I could go on but you get my point. There are so many aspects in which the Axis factions simply have to struggle to have equal footing against the Allies and the Soviets. In light of this situation, is nerfing Wehrmacht and OKW the right choice?

    While I am at it, I would like to suggest these changes to the WM Panther:

    • Keep the current pop cap at 16 (it's high enough already).
    • Keep the current cost (it should be expensive).
    • Improve its stationary accuracy so that it rarely misses its shot (Panthers were super accurate in real life).
    • Improve its damage to reflect its high velocity 75 mm gun (on par with Sherman Firefly).
    • Keep the current Blitzkrieg ability and its bonuses (don't reduce its speed or duration or whatever).
    • Add a default option to add a Panzer Commander that permanently improves its view range and firing range by 10 and also gives a slight combined arms bonus to nearby units (infantry, tanks, support weapons all included).
    • Improve the veterancy bonuses so that we can award players who can keep their Panthers alive to the late-game.
    • Keep the armour bonus at Vet 2 (why on earth would you remove this in the first place?)

    With these changes, the Panther should be a worthwhile pursuit for WM players and give them a sufficient incentive to upgrade to Tier IV. The Panther should represent the elite aspects of the non-doctrinal Panzerwaffe, not an underperforming piece of turd that no one wants.

  • #124
    10 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,437
    edited November 2017

    @LetzteJunker said:

    @SkysTheLimit написал:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    And Jackson getting buffed, while panther is getting nerfed?! That is another indirect nerf to panther as the Jackson is the best counter to the panther for USF.

    Why do you keep phrasing a reload buff to the panther along with a population increase and loss of Vet 2 armor bonus as just a nerf? I really do not understand that, the reload time change is by far the most noticeable of those 3 things.

    May be because it is a quiet small buff for all nerfs that panther receives? Where is pen buff, accuracy buff, range buff?
    It is nice try to kill an IS-2 with so bad pen and die from couple of SU-85s focus sighted on your nice "buffed" "best" "undoctrinal heavy tank".

    IS-2 is the ONLY singular allied unit with enough armor to actually deflect panther.
    You want to penetrate everything with 100% reliability, pick super heavy.
    Why you believe accuracy buff should be in place, when literally ALL TDs are getting accuracy nerfed?
    Why do you believe there should be range buff? Do you want to give up armor, health and speed for it? If so, be my guest, but as long as Panther is most durable, fastest and turreted TD, you're not getting it.

    Oh, sorry, i forgot that it is 4v4. So when you will tryhard this u should dodge a Firefly with "nerfed" accuracy and tank a Jackson shell.

    Given how both, FF and jackson were nerfed as well, I don't see what you're trying to say here.
    Also, basic play advise:
    You counter tank destroyers with ATGuns and AT infantry, not the very tanks they are meant to hardcounter.

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    It's fairly obvious that not enough is being done to address all the op stuff that the allies (particularly UKF) still have while constantly nerfing units on the axis roster that are still half-decent. For example:

    • Croc is op

    Use a tank against it - there, suddenly up.

    • AVRE is op

    Don't go AFK when you see it - there, suddenly can't hit anything.

    • AEC is op

    Use infantry against it - there, suddenly is glorified scout.

    • sappers are op (katitof if u say its because they're the only cqc stock brit inf, at least accept a price increase to 240, and there are commandos in quite a few docs. Enough of your lousy excuses.)

    Sappers got their share of nerfs already and if you want to take away their tankiness, then prepare a suggestion to what to add to brit selection to take over CQC troop role, which all factions have and need.

    • One can argue that inf sections are op. Far better version of grens. 0.8 vs 0.91 RA AND bonus in cover. Another underpriced unit for UKF. Only weakness is sniper and mortars, which Brits don't have too much problem countering with counter snipers, vehicles and mortar pits, and other arty.

    Inf sections are also more expensive.
    I'm surprised you're not arguing so zealously how grens and volks are OP compared to conscripts who can't stand up to them at all for almost exactly same cost.

    Also, inf sections excel only at long range, get your grens to CQC and inf sections will be outgunned.

    Plus, if you want brit to use all of his roster to counter you, what exactly makes you believe you shouldn't do the same?
    Where are your HMGs who clear inf sections good? Where is your sniper? Your mortar?

    • Pyrotechnic arty is too cheap. Major arty as well.

    You're referring to inf section upgrade?
    Have you noticed how neither USF nor UKF have katiusha/pwerfer/stuka?

    That's what this stuff does.

    • Airburst is just as op as stuka bombs. Everytime the first shell lands, I lose a support weapon. Pinpoint accuracy with no visual warning. And you get several shells unlike stuka bomb.

    If you see a red smoke, don't sit on it for next 15 seconds, move away.
    It takes ages for the guns to turn and open fire + there needs to be a reason to pick anvil and churchill most definitely isn't it.

    AEC needs damage nerf.

    Then so does Puma.

    All Churchill variants including callins need to be tied to Anvil/hammer tech.

    The moment Tiger will be tied to T4. Don't worry, it'll eventually come.

  • #125
    10 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,643
    edited November 2017

    OKW
    Sturmpioneer
    ...
    Sturmpioneers are receiving a reduction to their repair speed to better match other factions. Their veterancy 0 repair speed with or without the minesweeper has been reduced to promote aggression with Sturmpioneers to vet up.

    Then reduce their POP which is around double that of other engineers...

    Panther V
    Due to the performance reductions noted in V1.0 of the DBP changelog, the Panther V has received a fuel cost reduction to bring its performance better in-line with its value.

    If the original goal for the Panther was to make less spammable how lowering fuel achieve that in smaller modes where fuel was the issue?

    Rear Echelon
    The received accuracy penalty for Volley-Fire is being reduced to allow this ability to be viable in more situations when Rear Echelon come under-fire. This allows Rear Echelon in cover to suppress approaching troops without taking high amounts of damage in return.
    Volley-Fire Received Accuracy Penalty from 40% to 15%.

    This change is too drastic and will prove problematic. RE in garrison will be extremely difficult to dislodge.

    Suggestion:
    Either have the penalty be reduced step by step with each veterancy level or make it a vet 1 ability.
    In addition remove having to aim to use the ability and make a single click one.

    Firefly
    * Vet 3 damage bonus reduced from +80 to +40

    The standard accuracy of the FF for all practical reason should be considered with the commander bonus (since it a no brainer) 0.066/0.055/0.44(?) (0.044?) which remains too high.

    Especially since mid range is way too far compared to other TD even Elephant and JT
    0/45/60

    Since you are reworking the veterancy replace the x130% accuracy bonus with something that would actually help the unit perform better
    (one for instance could make tullip require vet 1-2 before upgrading)

    Target Weak Point/Treadshot (Quality of Life)
    This change affects the mode of operation for TWP that applies to StuG Gs, Pak guns, Pumas and the Elefant. Target Weak Point should now only fire one shot, but the player has more time to aim the ability and can be used on the move.
    Target Weak Point now last for 10 seconds or until the unit fires its first shot while using this ability.
    Activating the ability forces the unit to reload before being able to fire
    The similar-to-operate AEC treadshot ability behaves in a similar way (2 shots within 15 seconds)

    This is a major nerf to TWP and not a QOL change...
    Suggestion:
    If it is a singly shot remove the 10 sec window of opportunity so that next shot is a Stun shot.
    Apply the rules to allied TD's AP rounds.

    Forward Retreat Points
    * Reinforcement cost (global) increased by 20% while FRP ability is active
    * 2 minute cooldown when FRP ability is deactivated
    * 30 sec cooldown when FRP ability is activated (i.e., can't be deactivated for 30s after being turned on)

    This is a rather over complicated solution. Simply apply a 5%-10% cost penalty for units reinforcing from a FRP.

  • #126
    10 months ago

    May be because it is a quiet small buff for all nerfs that panther receives? Where is pen buff, accuracy buff, range buff?
    It is nice try to kill an IS-2 with so bad pen and die from couple of SU-85s focus sighted on your nice "buffed" "best" "undoctrinal heavy tank".

    IS-2 is the ONLY singular allied unit with enough armor to actually deflect panther.

    And Axis simply has not a tank what has enough armor to do the same job against allied TDs.

    You want to penetrate everything with 100% reliability, pick super heavy.

    No, just pick Firefly, what is vetting too easy. Or buy a couple of T-34-85 or SU-85, they are so cheap that u can just spam them in late game until the end of times.

    Why you believe accuracy buff should be in place, when literally ALL TDs are getting accuracy nerfed?

    I repeat: nerf of Firefly is just a joke comparable to panthers nerf.

    Why do you believe there should be range buff? Do you want to give up armor, health and speed for it? If so, be my guest, but as long as Panther is most durable, fastest and turreted TD, you're not getting it.

    If Panther is a TD and has this cost, give it a possibility to do the job like allied counterparts. I don't really believe that range buff is necessary, but accuracy on the move and reload speed is too weak, even hunting of Priest and CalliOP is a tryhard.

    Oh, sorry, i forgot that it is 4v4. So when you will tryhard this u should dodge a Firefly with "nerfed" accuracy and tank a Jackson shell.

    Given how both, FF and jackson were nerfed as well, I don't see what you're trying to say here.

    Again and again, Firefly has a cosmetic nerf and SU-85 is untouched.

    Also, basic play advise:
    You counter tank destroyers with ATGuns and AT infantry, not the very tanks they are meant to hardcounter.

    First of all: PAK40 is overpiced and twp is nerfed to garbage. Second: We are speking about late game, when allies have very powerful AI units and PAKs simply do not survive or can't be placed normally. Third: PAK43 is overpriced and cannot be normally used just because it doesn't have brace ability like qf17. A raketenwerfer is good in that case, but we are speaking about 3v3 4v4 late game, so Ostheer is in question too and OKW has enough duties to take one more.

  • #127
    10 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 2,027
    edited November 2017
    > @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    > As the previous post said, u always point the exception. A few days back I said OST don't have bulletproof lights but usf does and u say m20 isn't. M20 is the exception. Ost doesn't have a choice to get bulletproof lights.

    What at all does that have to do with the panther changes? I don't even know why you're so hung up on this "bulletproof lights" thing. Is every single axis vehicle supposed to have more armor from 0 mins all the way to the late game? USF armor rarely deflects any AT at all but it's unfair that they can get a bulletproof stuart?

    You were just going off about how Relic doesn't understand asymetrical balance....



    > @Reichsgarde said:
    > In the case of Wehrmacht, nerfing is simply out of the question.

    No faction should be categorically immune from all nerfs. If you still can't understand that a weak faction can have cheesy elements I don't know what to tell you.
  • #128
    10 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,437

    @LetzteJunker said:

    IS-2 is the ONLY singular allied unit with enough armor to actually deflect panther.

    And Axis simply has not a tank what has enough armor to do the same job against allied TDs.

    If you try to counter TDs with tanks, you play the game wrong.

    You want to penetrate everything with 100% reliability, pick super heavy.

    No, just pick Firefly, what is vetting too easy. Or buy a couple of T-34-85 or SU-85, they are so cheap that u can just spam them in late game until the end of times.

    The same firefly that was just nerfed?
    And if you believe meds are so potent, why aren't you spamming super cheap and extremely efficient StuG? Why not P4s which is the only med with 230+ armor at vet2?
    StuGs and P4s are just as "cheap" as 34/76 or 85s, why aren't you spamming them?

    Why you believe accuracy buff should be in place, when literally ALL TDs are getting accuracy nerfed?

    I repeat: nerf of Firefly is just a joke comparable to panthers nerf.

    50% cut off veterancy damage bonus, 40% moving accuracy and 25% accuracy nerf is a joke compared to removing 10% of highest stock armor value in game?
    You're delusional.

    Why do you believe there should be range buff? Do you want to give up armor, health and speed for it? If so, be my guest, but as long as Panther is most durable, fastest and turreted TD, you're not getting it.

    If Panther is a TD and has this cost, give it a possibility to do the job like allied counterparts. I don't really believe that range buff is necessary, but accuracy on the move and reload speed is too weak, even hunting of Priest and CalliOP is a tryhard.

    It does its job.
    It can solo any allied tank with exception of IS2 in frontal slugfest.
    If you're so insistent on attacking TDs with a tank, then learn to flank.

    Oh, sorry, i forgot that it is 4v4. So when you will tryhard this u should dodge a Firefly with "nerfed" accuracy and tank a Jackson shell.

    Given how both, FF and jackson were nerfed as well, I don't see what you're trying to say here.

    Again and again, Firefly has a cosmetic nerf and SU-85 is untouched.

    Also, basic play advise:
    You counter tank destroyers with ATGuns and AT infantry, not the very tanks they are meant to hardcounter.

    First of all: PAK40 is overpiced and twp is nerfed to garbage. Second: We are speking about late game, when allies have very powerful AI units and PAKs simply do not survive or can't be placed normally. Third: PAK43 is overpriced and cannot be normally used just because it doesn't have brace ability like qf17. A raketenwerfer is good in that case, but we are speaking about 3v3 4v4 late game, so Ostheer is in question too and OKW has enough duties to take one more.

    First of all: You're dead wrong.
    Second: StuGs will cost effectively clear all allied armor if you protect their rear with ATGs and you still have super heavies.
    Third: Again, you have super heavies, they don't. Spam less fuel cashes and you'll have mp for pak43(why you would need it is beyond me as all axis tanks beat their allied equivalents).

  • #129
    10 months ago
    le12role12ro Posts: 2,248 mod
    edited November 2017

    Moderation Input Can you guys please stick to providing feedback for the dbp preview instead of aruging who is right and who is wrong and who may misinterpret things? This would be highly appreciated.

  • #130
    10 months ago

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    It's fairly obvious that not enough is being done to address all the op stuff that the allies (particularly UKF) still have while constantly nerfing units on the axis roster that are still half-decent. For example:

    • Croc is op

    Use a tank against it - there, suddenly up.

    • AVRE is op

    Don't go AFK when you see it - there, suddenly can't hit anything.

    • AEC is op

    Use infantry against it - there, suddenly is glorified scout.

    • sappers are op (katitof if u say its because they're the only cqc stock brit inf, at least accept a price increase to 240, and there are commandos in quite a few docs. Enough of your lousy excuses.)

    Sappers got their share of nerfs already and if you want to take away their tankiness, then prepare a suggestion to what to add to brit selection to take over CQC troop role, which all factions have and need.

    • One can argue that inf sections are op. Far better version of grens. 0.8 vs 0.91 RA AND bonus in cover. Another underpriced unit for UKF. Only weakness is sniper and mortars, which Brits don't have too much problem countering with counter snipers, vehicles and mortar pits, and other arty.

    Inf sections are also more expensive.
    I'm surprised you're not arguing so zealously how grens and volks are OP compared to conscripts who can't stand up to them at all for almost exactly same cost.

    Also, inf sections excel only at long range, get your grens to CQC and inf sections will be outgunned.

    Plus, if you want brit to use all of his roster to counter you, what exactly makes you believe you shouldn't do the same?
    Where are your HMGs who clear inf sections good? Where is your sniper? Your mortar?

    • Pyrotechnic arty is too cheap. Major arty as well.

    You're referring to inf section upgrade?
    Have you noticed how neither USF nor UKF have katiusha/pwerfer/stuka?

    That's what this stuff does.

    • Airburst is just as op as stuka bombs. Everytime the first shell lands, I lose a support weapon. Pinpoint accuracy with no visual warning. And you get several shells unlike stuka bomb.

    If you see a red smoke, don't sit on it for next 15 seconds, move away.
    It takes ages for the guns to turn and open fire + there needs to be a reason to pick anvil and churchill most definitely isn't it.

    AEC needs damage nerf.

    Then so does Puma.

    All Churchill variants including callins need to be tied to Anvil/hammer tech.

    The moment Tiger will be tied to T4. Don't worry, it'll eventually come.

    If u haven't noticed, the croc can fend off any medium armor you throw at it and paks burnt to a crisp in 2 seconds flat. A panther will take ages to kill it and double stugs will get pushed off by at gun that are naturally protected by the croc from any infantry that dare to decrew them.

    Airburst does NOT give any visual cues.

    Whatever nerfs sappers got, they are not enough compared to the repair units of all other factions.

    Yes I know IS cost 280 but they perform far better than 16% better then grens overall. The bonuses are too strong for the price. Wow, Katitof, I knew you were allied biased, but damn you are completely misinformed on your claim that grens beat IS at point blank. Grens will lose 9 out of 10 times at point blank if both have heavy cover and its a 50-50 chance if both have no cover point blank. Play some Brits vs Ost and u will see. And if you bother to read my post, Ost snipers and mortars are countered by Brit snipers, light vehicles and mortar pits. And I have constantly said that volks are op and I'm glad that Relic is looking at the OKW infantry at its veterancy this patch hopefully nerfing volks back to a normal state. It seems you are ignorant to what I say on this forum.

    AEC is still decent at killing inf early game. Ost in particular has nothing to counter it early game.

    And again due to your lack of reading comprehension, I didn't say to nerf the performance of sappers but merely to increase price. So sappers will still be a great cqc unit. Right now stock sappers can afford to close in on stock grens and win. 210 beats 240.

  • #131
    10 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 2,027
    edited November 2017

    Said this several posts back, but to direct talk towards the panther specifically, I think the Ost Panther should get the moving accuracy multiplier that the OKW one is losing (and that the Jackson is moving down to) of .65. They need their panther much more than the OKW, and reliability of the main gun is its weakness. For a 175 fuel T4 AT-dedicated unit, THAT should not be the weakness. Not being able to do much of anything against infantry (unless its cons in negative cover) when you cost that much is sufficient of one. Along with that it should get an accuracy buff at vet 2, as it currently gets none at all.

    Can people just accept that the 10% armor bonus is ridiculous, especially with the extra AT shot of health? I'm very okay with just the latter, but certainly not both.

    OKWs panther is recieving nerfs because it is far less necessary for their success while being very powerful when not solo'd. They have the Jp4, KT, Puma, and a better P4. That makes Ost's stock AT lineup look like its from another era, and its no surprise that Stug fleets are the meta because of it.

  • #132
    10 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,643
    edited November 2017

    Repair Speeds
    USF Rear Echelon & British Royal Engineers:

    USF vehicles crew should also be look at.
    (Maybe even more the critical repair ability to "elite crews" only)

    Royal recovery engineers.

    Possibly conscript repair also.

    Soviet engineer salvage kit could use a discount or provide repair bonuses.

  • #133
    10 months ago

    I think a further nerf for the Sturmpios is mostly unwarranted but if the repair speeds are being nerfed, at least lower its insane vet requirements. This unit takes forever to vet up. I don't think the unit is underpowered as they behave like restrained pgrens at the beginning. Sturmpios are the squishiest assault infantry in the game. Also lower the pop cap hit for sturmpios if the repair nerf is going to happen. They cost nearly double the cap as Rear Ech and I'm not sure what cap the sappers take, (they'd be op if they also cost 5) but they cost considerably less cap then the sturms. The sturms better repair at almost double the speed as rear ech after the nerfs to WFA repair speeds if pop cap is left unchanged.

    As much as I like to bash Relic, I gotta praise them where praise is due. The redistribution of tech costs from the buildings to the tech for Ost is a very clever solution to the inflexible Ost late game. In many situations, you really want Tier 4 for either the Brum or the panther both not both. Teching all the way to tier 4 just for that unit has always been such a dilemma. For example, too often, in 1v1, Ost struggles to deal with USF or SU blobs and you see the blob may have a few zooks/ptrs. So you want something that can take a bit of punishment. The Brum comes to mind. If the USF/SU player has locked into a doc without heavy armor, there is no need for panthers. Rushing a Brum and then waiting for the fuel for a panther makes a tier 4 rush a death sentence if you can't repel/delay whatever armor that comes out for the allied player. I would love to cheaply back-tech for stugs. Ofc there are situations where Brum is less useful but panthers would be great such as Pershing stall or against is2. Too often in Ost 1v1, the Ost player is trapped into tier 3 stug spam and praying to the RNG gods that the StuGs penetrate enough against the heavy armor and resort to trading 2 stugs for a heavy allied tank. If the gods are not on your side, you'd lose a stug or even both stugs for nothing due to inevitable at guns backing up the heavy. And even trying to grab a werfer can be a pain when dealing with the popular croc backed by double at guns. If you can quickly build tier 4 after tier 3, your double stugs can be safe from at guns when repelling the croc. The current inflexibility of Ost late game is far worse than the decisions that other factions make (lt vs capt, spec rifle vs support weapons, battlegroup vs mechanized) These tradeoffs can be somewhat dealt with but the inability to get both tier3 and 4 for Ost is crippling for its late game or lack thereof.

  • #134
    10 months ago

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    Said this several posts back, but to direct talk towards the panther specifically, I think the Ost Panther should get the moving accuracy multiplier that the OKW one is losing (and that the Jackson is moving down to) of .65. They need their panther much more than the OKW, and reliability of the main gun is its weakness. For a 175 fuel T4 AT-dedicated unit, THAT should not be the weakness. Not being able to do much of anything against infantry (unless its cons in negative cover) when you cost that much is sufficient of one. Along with that it should get an accuracy buff at vet 2, as it currently gets none at all.

    Can people just accept that the 10% armor bonus is ridiculous, especially with the extra AT shot of health? I'm very okay with just the latter, but certainly not both.

    OKWs panther is recieving nerfs because it is far less necessary for their success while being very powerful when not solo'd. They have the Jp4, KT, Puma, and a better P4. That makes Ost's stock AT lineup look like its from another era, and its no surprise that Stug fleets are the meta because of it.

    I couldn't have said it better myself. Ost lacks a late game and that rests squarely on the poor performance of the panther. Ost late game = panther. Ost can live without a Brum if the ostwind gets the buffs it needs. 1v1 Ost players still rely too often on the Tiger to shore up what resembles a late game, but that ties you into doctrines. I'd say the Ost panther could be a serviceable tank if it gets the .65, and 1 second reduced reload, and I think Ost players would be glad to trade in the 10% armor. I'm still on the fence about pop cap increase as p4, pgrens, and grens cost a bit much in pop cap in terms to their performance.

  • #135
    10 months ago
    Holy shit guys, there is no way relic is going to get any useful info pertaining to the patch from this.... Mess of a thread (with the exception of @vipper who is making posts that are to the point)
  • #136
    10 months ago

    I played a few games and so far i enjoy the conscript and PTRS changes a lot.They arent all ofa sudden murdering everything but can consistently hit their targets.I dont know why the conscript and penal PTRS is bolt-action,as an immersion fix i would appreciate the removal of that animation.

    Volley fire is finally useful,makes you consider using machine guns instead of bazookas.If it is intended to incorporate REs more into frontline combat it would be good to see a change similar to conscripts,reduce REdamage and buff their accuracy,even if only slightly.alternativelybring the vet1 accuracy improvement on par with that of other units.

    as already mentioned ihave to agree with dane that the Wehrmacht doesnt really need those nerfs aside from the panther armor.diversifying OST(and soviet) veterancy woud be a good idea,make them interesting like the western front armies have.

  • #137
    10 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 281
    edited November 2017

    Is Relic going to nerf IL2 Sturmovik airstrike? That is as broken as stuka, more so imo.
    Short warning, long area denial times, sure to kill infantry if u dont retreat, and even troll your vehicles....

  • #138
    10 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 281

    I am a firm believer if your units are balanced in 1v1, the game is balanced in 4v4.
    I dont think Relic should focus this patch to make 4v4 more reliable.
    Say again, you dont patch the units for different modes, you change things of the mode. Make 4v4 maps bigger, so you dont get pinned by heavy weapons, for a start.

  • #139
    10 months ago
    moremegamoremega REDWOOD CITY CA USAPosts: 229
    edited November 2017

    why not merge tech 2 and 3 into one price? that would make back tech strategy more viable. The whole point of tier tech is to save time and resource by skipping to build the heavy panzer korps before the tier two building.

  • #140
    10 months ago

    @Katitof
    So Allies have right to fight tanks with TDs and mediums and have right for underpriced universal mediums when Axis must have a TD what can be easily beaten by TDs that come earlier and are cheaper in game with so easy version of kiting?
    Thanks for your great opinion, I will not be amazed that your favorite faction is UKF or soviets. God bless the Queen and abusive gameplay. God bless penals, FFs and soviet snipers.

  • #141
    10 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,437

    @mrgame2 said:
    Is Relic going to nerf IL2 Sturmovik airstrike? That is as broken as stuka, more so imo.
    Short warning, long area denial times, sure to kill infantry if u dont retreat, and even troll your vehicles....

    Its incapable of killing squads for over a year now.

    Don't leave squads with 10% hp on field and you won't lose them.

  • #142
    10 months ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951
    edited November 2017

    A few more thoughts from a few more games:

    • Ost Panther is still kinda meh. Its pretty sweet when vetted in Hull Down, but that's so absurdly niche. I felt much better either getting double StuGs for the same price or going 2xPuma/Pak43 into Doombar for most of my games. The low accuracy, especially on the move, makes the above options much more enticing, especially when you consider the above strats also have better anti-infantry and have their bases covered against medium tanks. I'm with SkysTheLimit, the Panther should have a reliable main gun, but really can't do that without .65 move accuracy.

    • OKW repairs felt a bit weak at stock. You can always get the mech truck upgrade I guess, but considering the high cost (and popcap) of Sturms, they could probably use a few minor tweaks.

    • CAS is, as I suspected, still pretty nuts. Its still a death sentence to medium armor still, especially if it gets popped in the middle of the Allies launching an all-in where disengaging isn't really an option. IMO, cut its damage significantly, but have it inflict temporary crits so it acts as a strong supporting AT option rather than the vehicle shredding monstrosity it is now.

    • Volley fire is love, volley fire is life and gives USF some much needed space to to contest minute zero building rushes from Sturms. Still not sure if Flamer REs are just strong or OP, but moving smoke to make Rifles less do-all is a good change.

    • I haven't had quite enough time to fully play them out, but damn Jacksons feel nuts right now. I definitely share Laz's thoughts on this cementing a meta that really shouldn't be getting reinforced. Not much to say that he hasn't already.

    • Cons seemed a bit more lethal at short range. I definitely noticed the faster animation for vet2 molly throw, but it seemed to take its sweet damn time to actually start the throw animation, so I'm not sure if its a bug or just poor luck with model drop restarting the throw. Other than that, their performance wasn't super noticeable and I still wouldn't use them without PPSHs and Maxims against Volks. Big +1 to 'nades being rolled together.

    • Speaking of which, deathloop and motorcycle pathing on the Maxim are still as alive as ever and are really noticeable with the new building unload times. It still feels like it could use a very minor suppression buff, but its otherwise okay.

    • Sweet Jesus tracking satchel and 4 Da Mommyland is absurd. Other than that, Penal nerfs feel alright so far and leave T1 very well balanced against T2, the choice comes down to personal preference or map/doctrine synergies.

    • M4C seems a bit lackluster without their call-in abuse, especially since they seem to compete directly with T34/76s. IMO, tweaking them to be a primarily AI unit would be the way to go since it would give T4 a similar relation to Ost T3 (generalist, AT casemate, AI)

  • #143
    10 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 281

    @Katitof said:

    @mrgame2 said:
    Is Relic going to nerf IL2 Sturmovik airstrike? That is as broken as stuka, more so imo.
    Short warning, long area denial times, sure to kill infantry if u dont retreat, and even troll your vehicles....

    Its incapable of killing squads for over a year now.

    Don't leave squads with 10% hp on field and you won't lose them.

    10%? I seen my 75% health squad gets drop to loner just surviving guy. And call it bad RNG, but i have got squad wipes because of the long retreat path, i dont get why IL2 have such huge aoe.

  • #144
    10 months ago
    EeereEeere Posts: 18
    edited November 2017

    I see a lot of people calling for moving accuracy on the Panther, but I think Relic takes issue with a 800 HP mobile tank being good at diving and chasing. Personally I'd rather see the Panther live up to its fame of being accurate at long range. Maybe up the pen a little too so it can counter heavies more reliably. Also the Ost MGs not being garbage would be swell.

  • #147
    10 months ago
    moremegamoremega REDWOOD CITY CA USAPosts: 229
    edited November 2017

    If Sturmtiger is getting a nerf both in cost and performance, then pls address the useless vet 1 grenade ability. Flare, stealth or smoke would be nice. How about buff dmg of grenade, so it actually kills something, and removing the vet requirement? How about changing the grenade to a stun grenade? You shouldn't make this big of a change to the sturmtiger if your not going to fix the entire tank. This is probably the reason you guys had a 20% dip in approval during the last patch is because players are sick and tired of big changes to balance.

  • #148
    10 months ago

    There is nothing on broken partisan tactics and advanced emplacment doctrines in the survey.

    Thats like asking someone with a car with no engine what colour steering wheel he would like .

  • #149
    10 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,437

    @thekingsown said:
    There is nothing on broken partisan tactics and advanced emplacment doctrines in the survey.

    Thats like asking someone with a car with no engine what colour steering wheel he would like .

    I'm surprised to see you of all people wanting to buff anything that isn't axis.
    There probably is no need to IMPROVE partisan tactics, because that's the goal of the survey, which doctrine to IMPROVE.

  • #150
    10 months ago

    Which Commander would you most like to see revamped to make it a more viable option for competitive play?

    Do tell me where it says "improve" even once?

  • #151
    10 months ago
    le12role12ro Posts: 2,248 mod
    (moderator input) stick to feedback please.
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