DBP Balance Feedback

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Comments

  • #273
    2 years ago

    British encampments should have a cooldown to start fire again after brace, like the OKW Flak HQ. Maybe not 60 secs but long enough to make follow up attacks.

  • #274
    2 years ago
    @oRi0n i think YOU are missing the point here. The okw trucks rewards are directly proportional to the risk you put them in. If are finding yourself spending "6+ minutes" defending it YOU fucked up, not the design. If its because its too close to the front then YOU placed it poorly OR couldnt hold the line thats on you. The trick is deciding where you can keep it defended but still benifit. Its a choice YOU make. AND the instant it is built your army is improved and diversity is added. Building it unlocks 4 additional units ALL defensive in nature including 2 supression platforms, the dirt cheap IR halftrack, a spawn on field leig AND you get lava nades, snare and STGs ON TOP OF being able to reinforce there. yes the usf has a mobile version that comes later, but it can also be removed AND takes up popcap, okw does not. They are paying a steady bleed to be able to forward retreat, something like 6 pop AND both parts can be destroyed by a single tank in an instant, or by indirect fire or at the very least cause a full rout of forces (major retreats then no more frp there)but this isnt the place for that debate, if you feel its an issue make a thread
  • #275
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    @rarisoy said:
    British encampments should have a cooldown to start fire again after brace, like the OKW Flak HQ. Maybe not 60 secs but long enough to make follow up attacks.

    They do, the very moment you press brace.
    If you're not able to kill braced emplacement during a direct attack, you didn't bring correct weapons.

  • #276
    2 years ago
    oRi0noRi0n Posts: 63
    edited November 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @oRi0n i think YOU are missing the point here. The okw trucks rewards are directly proportional to the risk you put them in. If are finding yourself spending "6+ minutes" defending it YOU fucked up, not the design. If its because its too close to the front then YOU placed it poorly OR couldnt hold the line thats on you. The trick is deciding where you can keep it defended but still benifit. Its a choice YOU make. AND the instant it is built your army is improved and diversity is added. Building it unlocks 4 additional units ALL defensive in nature including 2 supression platforms, the dirt cheap IR halftrack, a spawn on field leig AND you get lava nades, snare and STGs ON TOP OF being able to reinforce there. yes the usf has a mobile version that comes later, but it can also be removed AND takes up popcap, okw does not. They are paying a steady bleed to be able to forward retreat, something like 6 pop AND both parts can be destroyed by a single tank in an instant, or by indirect fire or at the very least cause a full rout of forces (major retreats then no more frp there)but this isnt the place for that debate, if you feel its an issue make a thread

    Again, no, you're still not getting it. I mean yah, the OKW FRP doesn't require pop cap, and placing the BG HQ forward does let the leig spawn on the field instead of the base (not really that big of a deal), and in the rare instance you manage a soft retreat rather than using the retreat button you can reinforce by the BG HQ, but otherwise you literally just listed the tech benefits which can obviously be obtained by placing the BG HQ in the BASE where it is NOT vulnerable. That has nothing to do with this discussion (the FRP). The issue is with placing it FORWARD, which is obviously necessary to gain any benefit from the FRP ability. The minute you place it forward, you are committed to defending it (rather than leaving it behind the base defenses). If you are going BG > Schwerer (which is what basically EVERYONE does, cause T1>T2 or visa versa is pretty much suicide due to lack of tanks) there is a 6+ minute window between when you place the BG HQ and when you place the Schwerer HQ. It is THIS period of time that I dispute. It's not that you gain no benefit from the BG HQ, it's that you gain little to no advantage by HAVING IT FORWARD and having to defend it in hopes that 6+ minutes later you'll be able to use the FRP ability.

    I submit for your consideration Dane's video here:

    Actually all of his recent videos regarding the states of the various factions are excellent and worthy of consideration by everyone discussing the balance patch. But the particular point I'm referring to is his suggestion in reference to the trucks. What does he say? Stop requiring the immobile tech trucks to be on the field for the OKW gameplay design (it's just generally problematic all around - tech at risk on one hand, trucks like field fortresses on the other) and give them a bloody half track (or maybe multiple utility vehicles) instead! Not exactly the same solution I suggested (allow the HQs to be packed up and redeployed elsewhere), but I actually like it better. I only suggested the re-deployable HQ structures (or at least the BG HQ) because I was assuming creating a new unit would be too much to ask at this point in the life of the game. But I would MUCH prefer to use halftracks for troop transport, FRP, etc. rather than having the field utility tied to the tech buildings. That's where the problem lies... so long as the OKW field utilities are tied to immobile TECH buildings, they HAVE to be extremely hard to kill. Otherwise the OKW faction design just flat out doesn't work.

    You're completely misreading my motivation here. Most all of my recent games have centered around going Mechanized first into Luchs then Schwerer, and getting the BG HQ 3rd for FRP/meds, leig and KT if needed. That's with the CURRENT FRP DESIGN. I want more viable strategies, more viable tech paths, more options, more varied gameplay. Right now the only things holding the BG HQ together as a first tech option are the FRP and the fact that you get to Schwerer a bit faster. The leig is good, but not enough on its own. AA halftrack is overpriced for what it does. IR halftrack is great, but too little immediate impact at that time in the game. I WANT to be able to go BG first (especially with leig getting smoke), but the FRP is too big a deal late game to give it up (on large maps), and without it the BG HQ is too hard to defend for 6+ minutes in a useful FRP position til the Schwerer comes out. I don't want to see every OKW player going T2 > T3 and T1 last if ever in every game. That's boring.

    My dream patch (with regards to OKW anyway) would be to remove FRP from the BG HQ to some later game halftrack (tied to the Schwerer HQ, say, or maybe all 3 if it's that big a deal), add a retreat button to the leig, reduce the fuel cost of the AA halftrack so it's actually worth getting (current opportunity cost vs earlier/more tanks is too high), and add some sort of troop transport vehicle to the BG HQ (or just let it be available after 1st truck is complete so you can get it with mechanized too - seems kinda silly the mechanized HQ can't mechanize your infantry). Coupled with the other patch 1.3 changes, I think that would work out great. Of course there are other things that COULD be done as well, but I think any more than that in one patch would be too much.

  • #277
    2 years ago
    ReichsgardeReichsgar… Bad Tolz, Bayern, GermanyPosts: 121

    Okay so... Relic has decided to make a few decent changes with regards to lowering pop cost for Grenadiers and so on. However, Relic still has not done enough to boost the Wehrmacht and the OKW. For instance, removing the Scwheres Panzer HQ's default AA ability for the OKW is pure nonsense. OKW players pay huge amounts of fuel to build that structure and it is very easy to destroy it anyways. Perhaps before listening to all the whining and complaining from Allies/Soviet players, maybe you could check their replay videos? Or check their win rates at least?

    I still don't understand why Relic thinks the Panther is "in an even better spot". I repeat again and again, the Panther needs more buffs to make it the supreme tank killer that it was supposed to be from the start. The Panther's range, reload speed and damage per shot need to ALL improve. While improving these, do NOT increase pop cap cost or fuel cost because it is about time that the Panther got what it deserves. More abilities should be added for the Panther too to ensure that it can compete effectively with those Jacksons, SU-85s and Comets.

    Nerfing the Stug III G's TWP ability?! Really? What makes you think that this ability overperforms? I was glad that you noticed how slowly this ability is activated and now you decide to nerf it by a huge amount. Changing its "main gun disable" to a simple "blind" and then reducing its duration from 15 seconds to 5 seconds and then cutting its damage by 50%? You do know that the Stug III's role is that of a tank destroyer, right? If you want to make it into an assault gun as it was historically, you could at least give it the ability to fire an HE barrage like its Soviet counterpart.

    Happy to see that you finally noticed how useless the Ostwind had been all these years. But nerf its AOE and damage output? Hmmm... I think you're being too excessive here. Roll back the damage nerfs and keep the buffs.

    Increase Tiger tank's pop cap to 20? Did you do the same for IS-2? Given how CoH 2 limits you to only having 100 pop points, you know how detrimental of a nerf it is to increase a unit's pop cap, right? Roll back the pop increase.

    Glad to see that you noticed how the Panzer IV was underperforming. Still though, the buffs are not enough. It still gets overwhelmed by M4C Shermans all the time. Buff Panzer IV's reload speed and accuracy.

    PaK 40 getting a pop cap reduction is welcome news. But did you guys think about giving it a new ability, perhaps? Improve its rate of fire so that it can compete effectively with the Soviet ZiS? Still no HE barrage ability even though the PaK 40 was completely capable of doing so historically... And now you buff the ZiS by reducing its pop cap by 2 POINTS and reducing the cost of the HE barrage from 60 to 30... Wow...

    At this point, I have to say the patch does have a few merits but I would rather see the Patch being cancelled because Relic still doesn't fully grasp how weak the Axis is overall and that your average Axis player needs to frantically type on his keyboard and move his mouse furiously to be on par with the Allied/Soviet player.

  • #278
    2 years ago
    Schwere_PanzerSchwere_P… Berlin, GermanyPosts: 23
    edited November 2017

    Hey Reichsgarde,

    I totally agree with you. German Panzers and other units still not receiving their well-deserved fame and combat efficacy. Really sad to be honest. I mean, aren't the Germans supposed to represent a smaller but better trained army? It seems that Allies/Soviets are getting both quantity and quality as far as I can see.

  • #279
    2 years ago

    @oRi0n said:
    Again, no, you're still not getting it. I mean yah, the OKW FRP doesn't require pop cap, and placing the BG HQ forward does let the leig spawn on the field instead of the base (not really that big of a deal), and in the rare instance you manage a soft retreat rather than using the retreat button you can reinforce by the BG HQ, but otherwise you literally just listed the tech benefits which can obviously be obtained by placing the BG HQ in the BASE where it is NOT vulnerable. That has nothing to do with this discussion (the FRP). The issue is with placing it FORWARD, which is obviously necessary to gain any benefit from the FRP ability

    Which everyone wants less off. This 6 minute window you're worried about is really no big deal. The BG HQ is hella cheap, and it saying it gives you benefit is completely wrong, it serves as a great durable position to soft retreat to. You and your allies can park indirect fire/support weapons. Get an MG34 when the BG finishes and use your infantry to defend it. If you want to have the forward position, that's what you're gonna have to do now. You're right, I do not understand you're point. FRPs are one of the most toxic things in this game, and you're upset about them being gone? OKWs design does not "rely" on FRPs, it allows them to exceed far beyond what they're supposed to...

    You say it will deter BG HQ, but the luchs and walking stuka are both getting nerfed. The ISG is getting smoke (which OKW has essentially none of) so I disagree 100%. Core things about the faction are changing, so stop complaining about not having options when you've had barely any time to test the new ones.

  • #280
    2 years ago
    oRi0noRi0n Posts: 63

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    You're right, I do not understand you're point. FRPs are one of the most toxic things in this game, and you're upset about them being gone? OKWs design does not "rely" on FRPs, it allows them to exceed far beyond what they're supposed to...

    This is entirely false on LARGE maps. Lack of troop transport. Period. No mechanized infantry. Generally fewer squads/vehicles. Harder to maintain field presence. There's a reason it was designed as the Tier 1 tech building, including the medics AND FRP. I DISLIKE this core design - relying on the trucks for field presence, but that's how they did it. You cannot take this away without compensating. I'm not arguing with DELAYING it, as the problem I think is early game where it DOES allow a decent bit of bullying in terms of map control. I'm arguing it's so powerful you cannot just discount the significance it has in DEFENDING the BG HQ itself, not just controlling map in general, which is what all of you seem to be doing. Having to choose in the first few minutes where to place the BG HQ, then have it be FAR more vulnerable for an extended period so that you can use the FRP much later in the game is just stupid.

  • #282
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681
    edited November 2017

    @oRi0n said:

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    You're right, I do not understand you're point. FRPs are one of the most toxic things in this game, and you're upset about them being gone? OKWs design does not "rely" on FRPs, it allows them to exceed far beyond what they're supposed to...

    There's a reason it was designed as the Tier 1 tech building, including the medics AND FRP.

    That reason died the moment OKW was permitted to deploy trucks on HQ sector and economy was reverted from "you now have 1/3 income, unless you place a truck on it" to "you get as much as everyone else".

  • #283
    2 years ago
    Best patch, GJ relic. This game become playable again. Most of the buff/nerf are very appropriate. Hope more commanders be revamped to allow more strategies diversity.
  • #284
    2 years ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434
    edited November 2017

    I applaude the balance team in being able to balance out nerfs in clever ways by giving something back (of lesser value of course/indirectly). Usually to better define and support a units role. A good example of this is the line of sight for Volks remain, but only while in cover. This is a slight nerf while also improving tactical gameplay in positioning.

    So the only Axis tanks with the cool looking side skirts are the P4 and Stug? I don't like the removal of these from the JP4/Panther. But that's just personal preference of aesthetics/uniqueness. Please don't dilute the higher vet capability of OKW too much.

  • #285
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    @SquishyMuffin said:
    So the only Axis tanks with the cool looking side skirts are the P4 and Stug? I don't like the removal of these from the JP4/Panther. But that's just personal preference of aesthetics/uniqueness. Please don't dilute the higher vet capability of OKW too much.

    JP4 and Panther never had them in game.
    It was only just a stat.

  • #286
    2 years ago
    KurkinKurkin РоссияPosts: 30

    It was excellent to add Strug E ability HE barrage, like the Soviet SU 76. His gun have a short barrel with a weak speed of the projectile and allowed to fire at a hinged trajectory. This is even seen in the game. But the ability for some reason is not.

  • #287
    2 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    edited November 2017
    > @Katitof said:
    > @oRi0n said:
    >
    > @SkysTheLimit said:
    > You're right, I do not understand you're point. FRPs are one of the most toxic things in this game, and you're upset about them being gone? OKWs design does not "rely" on FRPs, it allows them to exceed far beyond what they're supposed to...
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > There's a reason it was designed as the Tier 1 tech building, including the medics AND FRP.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > That reason died the moment OKW was permitted to deploy trucks on HQ sector and economy was reverted from "you now have 1/3 income, unless you place a truck on it" to "you get as much as everyone else".

    Seeing as we are(mostly) on opposite side of each other, it's rare for me to say cudos, but in this case it's warranted.
    Your comment was on spot and well-defined... good one and +1...
  • #289
    2 years ago

    Thought I'd give some feedback seeing how this patch makes quite a decent amount of changes.

    Since I think most of the changes are good, I'll list what I find a bit concerning instead:

    For Mother Russia (Commander Ability)
    Since it's not mentioned in the patch notes I'm under the assumption that FMR still costs 100 munitions.
    Considering its performance was significantly nerfed, that is:

    • Complete removal of armor bonus, which it previously doubled.
    • Duration cut in half.

    you're getting less than half of what it previously gave for the same price, which is a bit excessive, don't you think?
    And seeing how you previously tried to compensate with other units/abilities, why not make it cost 50-70 or so?

    Counterattack Tactics
    This Commander suffers greatly from the aforementioned FMR nerf, because from what I've seen it was virtually the only thing Counterattack Tactics was picked for:

    B4 is underwhelming and hardly ever lands goods hits, and there are better doctrines that offer Recon Run or Shock Troops.
    KV-1 is good, but not good enough on its own to warrant picking this Commander.

    This seems to go against what this patch aims to do, that is make more Commanders viable and usable.

    Molotov
    I'm a bit skeptical of upping the price to 20 instead of keeping it at 15.

    Problem with the molly is that it takes a very long time to throw, which was thankfully addressed somewhat with veterancy bonuses, doesn't deal much damage and has to be researched to be usable. And unlike USF nades it's essentially a garrison clearer/forces a unit to move, and not a damage dealer.

    Would like to see it stay at 15, but it's not the end of the world.

    T-34/76
    As others have pointed out, upping fuel cost to 90 doesn't seem to be justified, especially in light of T3 buff for Wehrmacht.

    Schwerer Panzer Headquarters
    Making it completely defenseless for 60 seconds after AA mode feels like it might be a tad excessive.
    Maybe give it a slight defensive buff while it's out of action?

    Demo Charges
    As was, again, pointed out previously, what exactly are they supposed to be used for now?
    I don't see any good use for them in their current form. Its practically a vulnerable satchel.
    Could be used to detonate MGs in buildings though, although I'm not sure if a normal squad would be able to get out in time if it were activated once it starts entering, with current load/unload times.

  • #290
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    Demo charges, can we reduce the damage and squad wiping, while keeping it to detonate without timer?

    Squad wiping with demo charge is bad, demo charge with visible timer is bad too.

    I dont like now buildings are harder to destroy. Consider giving tanks and AT guns more damage against buildings and structure imo.

  • #291
    2 years ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 468
    edited November 2017

    @TheLeveler83 said:
    @eonfigure

    You think these are fine?
    The teller mine is still one shotting all lights. The bundle nade still any weapon teams bane. Twp on a at gun. The anti tank strafe wich can kill 2 tanks on the first pass. and attack when target is beyond the circle.

    ...I didnt mention any of that. I'm calling out the Writer of the patch notes for Lying. I'm not saying those mega units dont do a lot of damage....but look at the word i used. Look at it carefully..."Mega" Thats right, as in, End-Game, Ultra Powerful and Slow, No turret. Even then, they arent that effective against high level players. This "update" would cater to people who like to sit and stare at their units for 15 mins while doing nothing, and play at a below average tier.

    Oh of course its fine, having an ability that lowers a tanks health in half with an auto lock is Fine~
    Heck id say that to if i was stubbornly adamant on winning with the soviets. The damage is Way higher than any single shot mega tank, or tank destroyer...on top of that it auto locks. Topple that with the durability of penals (squad size) and you've got a easy system. Like others have said, the damage needs to come way down.

    Let me put it another way. Even if this abilities price were to cost 300munitions per use...it would actually still be worth it. That's how much guaranteed damage it does. It's too easy and the damage is ludicrously high.

    You think im favoring the axis?

    The british dont even have a SINGLE snare. And they get by just fine. The soviets have two, both of which need some nerfs.

    Mic Drop

  • #292
    2 years ago
    kflikfli Posts: 15
    edited November 2017

    Why nerf the ”For Mother Russia”?
    It is the only unique skill that is usable for the Counterattack Tactics. B-4 and KV1 are basically waste of resources, if we want to use shock troops and recon planes, there are plenty of choices.
    Counterattack Tactics is one of the revamp candidate. It doesn't have a strong tank or artillery and can only rely on infantry. But now you don't buff the commander, you nerf it......I don't see the point.

  • #293
    2 years ago
    vsrvsr Posts: 93

    Demo charges

    Why the hell do you need to nerf dynamite? It was exclusively meant to be a punishing tool for "BLOBBERS", just like **sturmtiger **(OKW) , **stuka **(WERHM) or **AVRE **(BRIT). All players can see the timer and only blind won't give his blob another direction or just click T :(

    Atleast bring down the timer to like 1.5 sec?

  • #296
    2 years ago
    vsrvsr Posts: 93
    edited November 2017

    Well, as we are talking about demo charges and its one click wipes without any warnings, what about 1 click wiping abilities of the Ost volksgrenadeir's rifle grenade, a vet 3 volks squad's grenade launch has no count down and wipes a whole squad. But hey its the allied players fault for not noticing right.

  • #297
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    Well i got plenty of squad wipes by USF hand grenades, dont even need vet 3. The AI spacing is bad, the RNG on squad wipe is troublesome.

    But demo charges are too OP because of the range and damage.
    you need mine sweepers to detect, even detected, you can still get squad wipe if you choose to disarm.

  • #298
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    edited November 2017
    First of all - its not a volks ability. Its not even OKW. Its Ostheers Grenadier - which is a huge difference. Second, there is a warning - both a grenade callout and an animation. Third you have to be *super* bunched up on yellow cover to have even a *chance* of being wiped. So yeah - it is the players fault, as opposed to something that can be literally anywhere, is invisible and requires no units to be even remotely near it to trigger.

    If you or anyone else really thinks rifle grenades are OP youre welcome to make a separate thread about it
  • #299
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    I got once MG squad wipes with rifle grens, but i believe Relic nerf the rifle gren a few patches back. No longer squad wipes i seen.

    Hand gren however....the impact animations may look a weak poof, but i got squad wipe because it has shorter reaction time than rifle gren...

  • #300
    2 years ago

    .

    @mrgame2 said:
    Well i got plenty of squad wipes by USF hand grenades, dont even need vet 3. The AI spacing is bad, the RNG on squad wipe is troublesome.

    But demo charges are too OP because of the range and damage.
    you need mine sweepers to detect, even detected, you can still get squad wipe if you choose to disarm.

    You can shoot them from a safe distance once detected. They are mostly on capture points so you can plan for that.

  • #301
    2 years ago

    @eonfigure said:

    @TheLeveler83 said:
    @eonfigure

    You think these are fine?
    The teller mine is still one shotting all lights. The bundle nade still any weapon teams bane. Twp on a at gun. The anti tank strafe wich can kill 2 tanks on the first pass. and attack when target is beyond the circle.

    ...I didnt mention any of that. I'm calling out the Writer of the patch notes for Lying. I'm not saying those mega units dont do a lot of damage....but look at the word i used. Look at it carefully..."Mega" Thats right, as in, End-Game, Ultra Powerful and Slow, No turret. Even then, they arent that effective against high level players. This "update" would cater to people who like to sit and stare at their units for 15 mins while doing nothing, and play at a below average tier.

    Oh of course its fine, having an ability that lowers a tanks health in half with an auto lock is Fine~
    Heck id say that to if i was stubbornly adamant on winning with the soviets. The damage is Way higher than any single shot mega tank, or tank destroyer...on top of that it auto locks. Topple that with the durability of penals (squad size) and you've got a easy system. Like others have said, the damage needs to come way down.

    Let me put it another way. Even if this abilities price were to cost 300munitions per use...it would actually still be worth it. That's how much guaranteed damage it does. It's too easy and the damage is ludicrously high.

    You think im favoring the axis?

    The british dont even have a SINGLE snare. And they get by just fine. The soviets have two, both of which need some nerfs.

    Mic Drop

    You can pick your mic up again. Its been to long ago for me to rember the abilities u revere to. I went back 4 pages and didnt find it and didnt want waste my time. So please elaborate.

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