DBP Balance Feedback

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  • #452
    2 years ago

    @Hingie The Panther wasn't really nerfed, because it got a passive buffs. Why? Firefly now deals less damage.

  • #453
    2 years ago

    @Hingie said:
    Allied infantry will still be able to dominate Wehrmacht infantry, making mediums for allies redundant, leasing to the pooling all resources on TDs and guess what the Ostwind is...

    The TDs both have had their power against lighter tanks nerfed. The firefly through accuracy nerfs, Jackson through damage nerf. I think the Jackson is finally being rounded into the place as a true heavy armor hunter. I am surprised the moving accuracy change was reverted though, with its quicker reload now it seems like it should have slightly lower accuracy.

  • #454
    2 years ago
    @Lazarus said:
    >
    > Man you took me on a journey I was not ready for today

    And i forgot about the smaller rounds and hand AT :/
  • #455
    2 years ago
    vsrvsr Posts: 93

    What you guys think about the arty changes?? Reduced MP a good change or a gateway to arty spam?

  • #456
    2 years ago
    > @vsr said:
    > What you guys think about the arty changes?? Reduced MP a good change or a gateway to arty spam?

    Only at the cost of armour (fuel cost added)
  • #457
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,674

    @vsr said:
    What you guys think about the arty changes?? Reduced MP a good change or a gateway to arty spam?

    Better then it was as you don't have to choose between infantry or arty anymore.
    However you can't spam it either, each piece delays a tank by over 2 minutes, so you'll be overwhelmed without armor eventually and you won't afford arty and ATGs as they both pop cap heavy.

  • #459
    2 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited November 2017

    Can grens finally get sandbags? If USF is getting non-doc mines (far more gamebreaking than sandbags,) can Ost finally get sandbags on grens? Pios are the most burdened units in the game with its insane number of duties. On a side note, we should leave Ost trenches alone in ostruppen doc. Don't replace it with sandbags, if that was the intention, or give both sandbags and trenches as an option to Ostruppen doc.

  • #460
    2 years ago

    Why not give conscripts free slot weapons with vet 2 or 3 to give them better scaling in late game? What I am suggesting is something like 2 STV-40 to replace 2 mosins (SVT have better DPS, right?). Or anything similar?

  • #461
    2 years ago
    oRi0noRi0n Posts: 63

    @ImperialDane said:
    Further impresions from having played more :

    Wehrmacht Lategame overall still does not feel appreciably better. You're still suffering from units that can be easily wiped without the same potential to return that favour, in particular once the bundle grenade got nerfed which i definitely feel is a mistake.

    Wehrmacht Tier 4 still can't really turn the game around and while the panther is better it's still not good enough for a Tier 4 medium tank. You'll just get swarmed by Mediums at which point it's just a waste of resources.

    There needs to be some solid buffing of Wehrmacht lategame, especially after allied early game and late game got several buffs. Like not actually doing something good for wehrmacht lategame is going to turn into a mess.

    Similarly OKW is going to need it's mg34 buffed at the very least since otherwise without the Volksgrenadiers and Luchs, OKW is going to be overrun. They were carried by the Volksgrenadiers and luchs because that worked, the rest .. is a lot less efficient, so some sort of overhaul is going to need to happen there.

    Plus the Zis 3 barrage ability needs to be more expensive, having it cost less than a bundled grenade but having a bigger effect is.. wrong. And Penal troopers need a further nerf, the one applied is pretty much just for show and really achieves nothing.

    So i'd suggest Wehrmacht gets a Tier 4 infantry unit, a variant of the Obersoldat and i still think the Panther needs some sort of ability that has bigger impact, applying the same to the Panzer IV would not be a bad idea either.

    But right now while wehrmacht lategame has been marginally improved, it's early game has been considerably weakened, meaning the math does not add up, especially when wehrmacht lategame was already weak.

    So more work is needed there.

    This. All of this. Although I would add AA halftrack to the OKW tweaks along with mg34 - AA halftrack has been overpriced for a LONG time, hence never used. Reduce fuel cost imo, especially with it becoming much more important to get due to AA changes.

  • #462
    2 years ago

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    Can grens finally get sandbags? If USF is getting non-doc mines (far more gamebreaking than sandbags,) can Ost finally get sandbags on grens? Pios are the most burdened units in the game with its insane number of duties. On a side note, we should leave Ost trenches alone in ostruppen doc. Don't replace it with sandbags, if that was the intention, or give both sandbags and trenches as an option to Ostruppen doc.

    4 dislikes and counting........... because grens shouldn't get sandbags. LOL

  • #463
    2 years ago
    Hesky85Hesky85 Posts: 52
    edited November 2017

    Thanks @ImperialDane for your great post. I thought this patch should be a community patch, but it isnt. You get many likes for post and the suggestions are very realistic, everybody knows that. But the balance team doesn't care.

    Grens and PZGrens doesnt fit in lategame because:

    • Grens die too fast because of 4 men squads even on Vet 3
    • Pgrens have to run close into the enemy to do any damage but its impossible vs 5-men-double-weapon allies squads. On the way to get close maybe 1 model arrive the optimal range do to some damage....

    Wehrmacht needs an 400mp elite squad (like Obersoldaten) more than every other faction!!

  • #464
    2 years ago
    @1ncendiary_Rounds pios already have sandbags so grens dont need them, its bad enough grens and pios can also build bunkers and can also heal infantry.we need to step AWAY from everybody doing the same jobs, its uninspired.
  • #465
    2 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited November 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @1ncendiary_Rounds pios already have sandbags so grens dont need them, its bad enough grens and pios can also build bunkers and can also heal infantry.we need to step AWAY from everybody doing the same jobs, its uninspired.

    We can remove the sandbags on pios though. None of the other builder units have sandbags.

  • #466
    2 years ago
    So that makes pios more unique. No other builder unit can build bunkers either, nor can they see as far as pios, should we move those to grens as well?
    Like the grens bitch about when you make them build bunkers "you know we are grenadiers not pioneers" pios are supposed to be the ones setting up defences, not fully combat capable units (like tommies, building more shit than sappers cause brits)
  • #467
    2 years ago

    @Hesky85 said:

    • Pgrens have to run close into the enemy to do any damage but its impossible vs 5-men-double-weapon allies squads. On the way to get close maybe 1 model arrive the optimal range do to some damage....

    Actually pgrens simply need to run into midrange to be effective, but with double upgraded WFA infantry even that is a hazardous task many times. And these double upgraded infantry cost only 6-7 pop cap while pgrens that are disadvantaged in many scenarios are overpriced at a whopping 9 pop cap.

  • #468
    2 years ago
    MustiMusti Posts: 20

    So, here's my experience with the balance patch(es) so far:

    1. FRPs - They seem to be "balanced into non-existence" right now, I find the reinforce time penalty is completely overdone, since it heavily cuts the supposed benefit of FRB's in the first place (quicker return to combat), making the investment pointless, delaying the FRB's with tech requirement was enough IMO.

    2. Conscripts - Really good changes overall, finally it's a unit that's actually worth using, I do not understand the 1-slot limit though. The fact that they can get Vickers K drops from UKF doesn't really justify that change in my eyes.
      I mean cooperation between 2 players, one of which is locked to a single commander choice, and has to spend a lot of munitions on someone elses infantry with the result being quite-powerful infantry really a big enough issue to warrant a limitation like that? There are much worse team-game combos in this game.

    3. British emplacements - Overnerfed and not worth the investment anymore, the compound effect of all the changes (reduced repair rate, reduced emplacement performance, changes to brace, and emplacement-focused commanders, etc.) is way too much. The biggest problem is with the mortar emplacement, since both Bofors and the 17-pdr have their team-weapon "equivalents" (in the form of Vickers HMG and 6-pdr AT gun). It's a shame that UKF doesn't have some sort of regular mortar/support gun.

    The rest of the changes are nice, or at least agreeable :)
    There's a few things though:
    Will the M1 Pack Howitzer get a look at, like it did in the previous patch? I really liked how it turned out.
    And since we are patching the game, can we finally get rid of the death-loop on all MG's? The fact that some units still suffer from that is beyond comprehesion to me.
    Moreover here's a thing: will UK inf. squads get their RA reduction from vet. compensated for lower base RA or is it intentional to make them weaker late-game?

  • #469
    2 years ago
    ReichsgardeReichsgar… Bad Tolz, Bayern, GermanyPosts: 121

    I am quite glad that Imperial Dane has summarized many of the points that I wanted to make. When I purchased CoH 2, they advertised Wehrmacht and OKW as late-game factions but now both of these factions do not have late-game advantages that give them an upper hand and a reward for having survived that long.

    As I have been voicing these concerns for a long time, Relic seems to have a strange understanding that Axis forces are overperforming in any tangible regard. Now that you have nerfed the Volksgrenadiers and the Luchs (oh the Luchs has fallen a long way from where it was) but without significantly buffing other combat elements, OKW is now almost a dead faction. Wehrmacht Infantry, Light Vehicles, Support Weapons (remove Sprint ability? Was that really necessary Relic?), and Tanks need to be significantly buffed so that they can handle the considerable advantage that Allies/Soviets enjoy towards the late-game. People say that "Oh OKW has the King Tiger, what is he complaining about?" and "Wehrmacht Panthers can take on any Allied medium armour". For these people, I recommend playing the Axis factions several times to see how incredibly difficult it is to even acquire enough resources to produce a King Tiger (while staying alive) and how easily overwhelmed the Panther is if two Cromwells start charging straight towards it. Supporting infantry and PaK guns? Well they can be insta-wiped with double-Bren wielding Tommies and mortar emplacements.

    Here are the suggestions that I would make to Relic so that they can make Wehrmacht have some saving grace:

    • Reinstate the WM Panther Vet 2 Armour Bonus.
    • Reinstate the WM Ostwind penetration boost.
    • Reduce received accuracy for WM Grenadiers so that they can survive longer.
    • Reinstate Wehrmacht support weapons Sprint ability.
    • Give PaK 40s the ability of an HE barrage and better rate of fire.
    • Give StuG IIIs the ability of an HE barrage and restore the original TWP ability.
    • Further increase WM Panther's rate of fire.
    • Improve the Blitzkrieg Tactics ability so that it boosts speed, rate of fire, and on-the-move accuracy.
    • Give WM Panzer IV a better penetration boost (not just a meagre 5) and better stationary accuracy.
    • Allow WM Grenadiers to have a second MG 42 LMG via upgrade.
    • Improve WM Grenadiers long-range dps so that they can actually stay competitive at range.
    • Restore original damage output of Bundled Grenades and keep the recent AOE buff.
    • Give suppression ability to Vet 3 WM Grenadiers equipped with double MG 42 LMGs.
    • Boost repair speed of Pioneers when upgraded with Hazard Removal Kit.
    • Boost sandbags building speed of Pioneers.
    • Allow Pioneers to have both mine detectors and flamethrowers.

    These improvements should allow Wehrmacht to stay competitive throughout the game. Too much you say? I think not because it is high time that these units performed the way they were supposed to.

  • #470
    2 years ago
    Schwere_PanzerSchwere_P… Berlin, GermanyPosts: 23

    These changes seem very justified as far as I can see. Allies have very powerful TDs and very strong infantry units that scale well throughout the game.

  • #471
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,674

    @Schwere_Panzer said:
    These changes seem very justified as far as I can see. Allies have very powerful TDs and very strong infantry units that scale well throughout the game.

    In case you've yet to noticed for last couple of patches, allied TDs are being toned down constantly, patch to patch.
    That means axis armor needs to take a dive as well, otherwise it would end up overpowered, like panther with armor buff at vet2.

    Infantry balance changed a lot as well.

    There is no such thing as strong allies early game and strong axis late game as goal of all the patches we had over last 18 months or more was to equalize all factions at all stages of the game.

    Sorry, but special snowflaking of certain factions being strong at certain time is era of the past and it does not matter how relic advertised them 5 years ago.

  • #472
    2 years ago

    @Reichsgarde said:
    I am quite glad that Imperial Dane has summarized many of the points that I wanted to make. When I purchased CoH 2, they advertised Wehrmacht and OKW as late-game factions but now both of these factions do not have late-game advantages that give them an upper hand and a reward for having survived that long.

    As I have been voicing these concerns for a long time, Relic seems to have a strange understanding that Axis forces are overperforming in any tangible regard. Now that you have nerfed the Volksgrenadiers and the Luchs (oh the Luchs has fallen a long way from where it was) but without significantly buffing other combat elements, OKW is now almost a dead faction. Wehrmacht Infantry, Light Vehicles, Support Weapons (remove Sprint ability? Was that really necessary Relic?), and Tanks need to be significantly buffed so that they can handle the considerable advantage that Allies/Soviets enjoy towards the late-game. People say that "Oh OKW has the King Tiger, what is he complaining about?" and "Wehrmacht Panthers can take on any Allied medium armour". For these people, I recommend playing the Axis factions several times to see how incredibly difficult it is to even acquire enough resources to produce a King Tiger (while staying alive) and how easily overwhelmed the Panther is if two Cromwells start charging straight towards it. Supporting infantry and PaK guns? Well they can be insta-wiped with double-Bren wielding Tommies and mortar emplacements.

    Here are the suggestions that I would make to Relic so that they can make Wehrmacht have some saving grace:

    • Reinstate the WM Panther Vet 2 Armour Bonus.
    • Reinstate the WM Ostwind penetration boost.
    • Reduce received accuracy for WM Grenadiers so that they can survive longer.
    • Reinstate Wehrmacht support weapons Sprint ability.
    • Give PaK 40s the ability of an HE barrage and better rate of fire.
    • Give StuG IIIs the ability of an HE barrage and restore the original TWP ability.
    • Further increase WM Panther's rate of fire.
    • Improve the Blitzkrieg Tactics ability so that it boosts speed, rate of fire, and on-the-move accuracy.
    • Give WM Panzer IV a better penetration boost (not just a meagre 5) and better stationary accuracy.
    • Allow WM Grenadiers to have a second MG 42 LMG via upgrade.
    • Improve WM Grenadiers long-range dps so that they can actually stay competitive at range.
    • Restore original damage output of Bundled Grenades and keep the recent AOE buff.
    • Give suppression ability to Vet 3 WM Grenadiers equipped with double MG 42 LMGs.
    • Boost repair speed of Pioneers when upgraded with Hazard Removal Kit.
    • Boost sandbags building speed of Pioneers.
    • Allow Pioneers to have both mine detectors and flamethrowers.

    These improvements should allow Wehrmacht to stay competitive throughout the game. Too much you say? I think not because it is high time that these units performed the way they were supposed to.

    As much as I want Ostheer to be competitive again, yeah I do think you're going overboard with quite a few things. Grens don't need double upgrades after the nerf to IS. Penals and cons however need to be refined as some are saying that cons are still too good. If you suggest a single AOE buff to the live bundle nade, it will be as powerful as a satchel without the long timer. Pak 40 don't need an HE barrage nor does stug. Giving flamers to pios simply breaks the balance on repair units. Combat engis don't get that. A lot of what you're suggesting will make gren spam viable again. Just think about it. First you want reduced RA, then you want better long range dps, then suppression ability, then double upgrade, there will be no point of getting pgrens.

  • #473
    2 years ago

    I think the best way to make minesweeper squads fair is that if a squad is upgraded with a sweeper, it cannot be upgraded with another weapon, unless you find one on the battlefield. This was SkysTheLimit's idea. So if you're gonna disagree, you're disagreeing with him.

  • #474
    2 years ago

    I completely disagree with the bundle grenade changes. I think the bundle grenade is in a great spot in the live game. Perhaps the muni cost can be increased to 50 but the changes to the grenade make it easier to use but harder to dodge cleanly. This change punishes players with good micro and rewards those with poor micro. Good players can no longer maximize damage/dodge completely and bad players will be guaranteed to get some damage in/survive the grenade.

  • #475
    2 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited November 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    So that makes pios more unique. No other builder unit can build bunkers either, nor can they see as far as pios, should we move those to grens as well?
    Like the grens bitch about when you make them build bunkers "you know we are grenadiers not pioneers" pios are supposed to be the ones setting up defences, not fully combat capable units (like tommies, building more shit than sappers cause brits)

    That's quite a poor excuse to force pios to build sandbags. Pios are already overburdened. Only combat engies come close to the duties of pios. As well, pios need to lay down mines more than combat engis due to Ostheer's defensive nature and poor ability to hold a decent chunk of map earlygame. And combat engi have less duties when a third of docs have cons repair kits. Usually early game, you only have one pio compared to 2-4 grens. That means only ONE unit making sandbags whereas the other factions have SEVERAL units capable of building it. I NEVER said to move the extra sight to grens. Extra sight is not a burden as 222 can also provide LoS. I don't see what would be wrong with grens building sandbags and bunkers when IS can build trenches and sandbags so as I repeat the infinite time, "grens already have bunkers" is another very poor excuse.

  • #476
    2 years ago
    moremegamoremega REDWOOD CITY CA USAPosts: 229

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Demo change is awful, and it now has no use at all. At the VERY least it should have ots damage GREATLY boosted and be able to take out bridges in one again, else remove it all together for all the use it will get.

    P4 buff is a nice change, being the most expensive standard medium its performance should now reflect that.

    The t34 change is not so good considerimg the p4 buff, however that can be mitigated by relieving the manpower cost slightly.

    I don't agree. Demo charges are very unfair to new players that don't know how to counter them properly, and this will relieve a lot of frustration with that. Also this will incentivize Russian mine spammers to use trip wire flares in combination with a demo to catch blobs of inf.

  • #477
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,674

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    So that makes pios more unique. No other builder unit can build bunkers either, nor can they see as far as pios, should we move those to grens as well?
    Like the grens bitch about when you make them build bunkers "you know we are grenadiers not pioneers" pios are supposed to be the ones setting up defences, not fully combat capable units (like tommies, building more shit than sappers cause brits)

    That's quite a poor excuse to force pios to build sandbags. Pios are already overburdened. Only combat engies come close to the duties of pios. As well, pios need to lay down mines more than combat engis due to Ostheer's defensive nature and poor ability to hold a decent chunk of map earlygame.

    Then get more of them.
    2 builders for any faction but OKW is the bare minimum.

    And combat engi have less duties when a third of docs have cons repair kits. Usually early game, you only have one pio compared to 2-4 grens.

    Please, save that argument for then any of these doctrines and at least a single con based BO becomes meta.
    Con based strats were DEAD for past 2 years and any argument with cons in them deserves only a laughter, hopefully this patch will change it, but until then, you're grasping at really thin straws.

    That means only ONE unit making sandbags whereas the other factions have SEVERAL units capable of building it. I NEVER said to move the extra sight to grens. Extra sight is not a burden as 222 can also provide LoS. I don't see what would be wrong with grens building sandbags and bunkers when IS can build trenches and sandbags so as I repeat the infinite time, "grens already have bunkers" is another very poor excuse.

    Oh?
    Which soviet unit can build sandbags except for cons?

    USF can do so exclusively when using a doctrine, non meta doctrine.

    UKF infantry is designed to use cover and them not being able to build it would be imbalanced.

    I also don't remember anything else but volks being able to raise sandbags for OKW.

    Other factions also have only one unit for sandbags and its not always main infantry one.

    And speaking of not seeing anything wrong with something, well, I don't see anything wrong with cons getting non doctrinal weapon upgrades, but look at that? Even osttruppen got one, the literal meatshield infantry, and cons aren't getting anything.

    Just because you don't see anything wrong with giving something to X or Y unit does not mean it wouldn't be wrong.

  • #478
    2 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited November 2017

    @Katitof said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    So that makes pios more unique. No other builder unit can build bunkers either, nor can they see as far as pios, should we move those to grens as well?
    Like the grens bitch about when you make them build bunkers "you know we are grenadiers not pioneers" pios are supposed to be the ones setting up defences, not fully combat capable units (like tommies, building more shit than sappers cause brits)

    That's quite a poor excuse to force pios to build sandbags. Pios are already overburdened. Only combat engies come close to the duties of pios. As well, pios need to lay down mines more than combat engis due to Ostheer's defensive nature and poor ability to hold a decent chunk of map earlygame.

    Then get more of them.
    2 builders for any faction but OKW is the bare minimum.

    And combat engi have less duties when a third of docs have cons repair kits. Usually early game, you only have one pio compared to 2-4 grens.

    Please, save that argument for then any of these doctrines and at least a single con based BO becomes meta.
    Con based strats were DEAD for past 2 years and any argument with cons in them deserves only a laughter, hopefully this patch will change it, but until then, you're grasping at really thin straws.

    That means only ONE unit making sandbags whereas the other factions have SEVERAL units capable of building it. I NEVER said to move the extra sight to grens. Extra sight is not a burden as 222 can also provide LoS. I don't see what would be wrong with grens building sandbags and bunkers when IS can build trenches and sandbags so as I repeat the infinite time, "grens already have bunkers" is another very poor excuse.

    Oh?
    Which soviet unit can build sandbags except for cons?

    USF can do so exclusively when using a doctrine, non meta doctrine.

    UKF infantry is designed to use cover and them not being able to build it would be imbalanced.

    I also don't remember anything else but volks being able to raise sandbags for OKW.

    Other factions also have only one unit for sandbags and its not always main infantry one.

    And speaking of not seeing anything wrong with something, well, I don't see anything wrong with cons getting non doctrinal weapon upgrades, but look at that? Even osttruppen got one, the literal meatshield infantry, and cons aren't getting anything.

    Just because you don't see anything wrong with giving something to X or Y unit does not mean it wouldn't be wrong.

    In the early game, most Ost players will only have one pio. Most Ost will get another only into the mid game. When does USF get another RE?
    Never. Cons will become meta again so SU will have plenty of sandbag builders. And cons were always decent vs Ost in 1v1. I'm talking from a 1v1 perspective when you don't have allies that can build for you. USF shouldn't get non-doc sandbags. They basically have everything else the other factions have plus a shitload of unique perks that USF doesn't want to share. When USf gets non-doc sandbags, that is the day when this game dies. And I wouldn't be surprised if that day is near due to the amount of units/abilities being added to USF, first the persh, then mortar, now mines, and in the future, sandbags. You don't remember anything else other than volks getting sandbags for OKW? That's fine since that is basically the only unit OKW makes in the early game anyways! And why Ostruppen get upgrades and cons don't is because Ostruppen are DOCTRINAL TO BEGIN WITH. Only 2 of the docs with Ostruppen are meta out of the sea of Ostheer doctrines. So what's the big deal since at least a quarter of SU docs give ppsh?

  • #480
    2 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited November 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Just make bunkers cheaper and add the reduction to the upgrade costs and call it a day.
    Then bunkers have use as garrisonable structures instead of just soft retreat/ no pop map control.

    I'd completely agree as someone else already pointed out this idea but most people were against it.

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