USF SMOKE - Which USF Squad should have access to smoke grenades?

245

Comments

  • #32
    1 year ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017
    edited November 2017
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented
    > @Esxile said:
    > It is all about early game so you can discard Doctrinal abilities and Sherman/Scott.

    Then USF still wins because theyre the only ones with T0 smoke. It doesnt matter how you slice it or what arbitrary rules you put up. USF has the most smoke and the easiest access to smoke. Bar none. Not even debatable. The post im responding to also explicitly says USF needs more doctrinal smoke - so no discarding doctrinal abilities, thanks all the same.

    They do have an effective mortar. Use the barrage and shift move and use it on MGs instead of trying to arty party vs Ost mortars and itll easily carry you to the mid game where the mountain of smoke options "counts"
  • #34
    1 year ago
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    When it comes to USF early game it performs too well vs Ostheer. They added the mortar to counter the MG 42 and the grenade smoke allows even their starting infantry to counter the MG 42. Ostheer does not have any other non-doctrinal openers. They must build an MG 42 but even then their field presence is much lacking in comparison to other factions. My solution to this is to buff the Pioneer to be an actual fighting squad along with the Soviet's Combat Engineer. Ostheer's pioneer and the Soviet's Combat Engineer are the weakest units in the game. The Soviet's Combat Engineers is a four man pre-rework Conscript squad. The Ostheer's Pioneer has trouble fighting even with absolute perfect engagements. They will tie with the reworked conscripts and uncovered Infantry Sections. They still straight up lose vs Riflemen, Penals, and covered Infantry Sections. Of course, absolute perfect engagements never happen so pioneers never have any fighting power apart from the flamer. Ostheer is always munitions starved since their units are generally the weakest vs their counterpart. If pioneers where to receive a buff then openers such as a duel pioneers would be mean the MG 42 would be less common and then the Riflemen smoke would not be all that strong.

  • #35
    1 year ago
    Riflemen (Live version)

    USF needs Smoke Riflemen DONT NEED ANOTHER NERF i mean jackson taking 1 mroe hit is nto even enough and 160 damamge nerf KEEP THE SMOKE

  • #36
    1 year ago
    Riflemen (Live version)
    A lot of good opinions came up while I was working. But I wish I knew that. I hope that you do not reveal the respect and aggressiveness of your opponent in order to have a healthy discussion.

    Most of the comments, I have some wrong opinions and I want to say. The US military does not have a very good basic tier configuration.

    Cuz of that configuration, most US military users are accustomed to battle with Rifle men. This may seem like a blob, but if you talk backwards, you might think the tier is strange enough that there is no answer other than breaking one point.

    Of course, we knew this and added mortars, but it did not fully offset the weaknesses of the US military.

    In fact, the range of the US military bombardment was more problematic than the mortgage of the Osteer. If you want to solve the problem of smoke grenade.

    However, I think there are some Axis users who feel unfair to this opinion. My opinion is not always right, but at least I think it's important to balance the game with the basic personality of both sides. All successful RTS games have personality. I think it is not a difficult choice if you think about it.
  • #37
    1 year ago
    EsxileEsxile Posts: 15
    Other (leave feedback below)

    @Ægion said:
    When it comes to USF early game it performs too well vs Ostheer. They added the mortar to counter the MG 42 and the grenade smoke allows even their starting infantry to counter the MG 42. Ostheer does not have any other non-doctrinal openers. They must build an MG 42 but even then their field presence is much lacking in comparison to other factions. My solution to this is to buff the Pioneer to be an actual fighting squad along with the Soviet's Combat Engineer. Ostheer's pioneer and the Soviet's Combat Engineer are the weakest units in the game. The Soviet's Combat Engineers is a four man pre-rework Conscript squad. The Ostheer's Pioneer has trouble fighting even with absolute perfect engagements. They will tie with the reworked conscripts and uncovered Infantry Sections. They still straight up lose vs Riflemen, Penals, and covered Infantry Sections. Of course, absolute perfect engagements never happen so pioneers never have any fighting power apart from the flamer. Ostheer is always munitions starved since their units are generally the weakest vs their counterpart. If pioneers where to receive a buff then openers such as a duel pioneers would be mean the MG 42 would be less common and then the Riflemen smoke would not be all that strong.

    I haven't play Ostheer for a while in 1vs1, I was more active with them last patch when USF was over dominating with the mortar and Stuart rush but already during that time when Ostheer was in a worst position it was possible to do different build with Sniper or Gren with the mortar.
    So no I'm not agreeing with you, There is no evidence in need to build a HMG42 as first unit as Ostheer. It is completely possible to start with more grenadiers and mortar, of course depending on the map.
    As I mentioned earlier, Rifle smoke comes with a downside = later T1/T2, later ambulance, later BARs/Zooks, later first vehicle.

    You make me remember a game where my competitor call me Mortar spammer because he had 3 HMG and me 2 mortars.

  • #38
    1 year ago
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    Is there any info on when we will be getting the revamp for USF?

  • #39
    1 year ago
    Reach Echelon & Officers (Lieutenant, Captain, & Major) - not yet implemented

    I don't know why soo many people vote for the Live version.
    But maybe have a look about this here. I think its worth it to think about the whole smoke thing.

    https://www.coh2.org/topic/66117/okw-smoke made bye Gb Hooligan

  • #40
    1 year ago
    vsrvsr Posts: 90
    Reach Echelon & Officers (Lieutenant, Captain, & Major) - not yet implemented

    First of all, smoke has to go from Rifle men units since a blob with smoke ability is killing the diversity of the gameplay, so to force the player to have a diverse gameplay it has to be moved to other units.

    I believe that giving Reach Echelon the smoke enable USF players to have access early in the game, like for countering MG42 spam but at the same time forcing the USF player to build more Reach Echelon units thus diversifying the early gameplay. And, in the late game, Lieutenant, Captain and Major could benefit the player with some special smoke ability like arty smoke, etc.

  • #41
    1 year ago
    Reach Echelon & Officers (Lieutenant, Captain, & Major) - not yet implemented

    @SoESturmpanther написал:
    I don't know why soo many people vote for the Live version.
    But maybe have a look about this here. I think its worth it to think about the whole smoke thing.

    https://www.coh2.org/topic/66117/okw-smoke made bye Gb Hooligan

    Ofc, need remember taht he early lose to 1 50 cal at crossroads ? And he forget about taht OKW have legal maphack in med to see position of units ? Its just rage post from him. So he blame taht OKW dont have smoke, but use arguments like soviet have smoke from mortar adn thay can use sniper. So i can write, use camo raketen or smoke from obers.

  • #42
    1 year ago
    Other (leave feedback below)

    I don't get why we aren't discussing the nature of the launcher itself, and just the units that we can place them on. Look at all the infantry based smoke; any squad that's capable of near-instantly casting smoke has to throw a grenade. Rifles are the only ones who can cast it at great distance, but with similar responsiveness.

    I think making the smoke launcher a stowable weapon with a delay for equipping will do a lot more for reducing the potency of US smoke than moving it to any other infantry. Especially REs, it's easy as hell to buy and replace them, and all you gotta do is keep 1 relatively near your riflemen.

  • #43
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,587
    Rear Echelon (December Balance Preview)

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    I don't get why we aren't discussing the nature of the launcher itself, and just the units that we can place them on. Look at all the infantry based smoke; any squad that's capable of near-instantly casting smoke has to throw a grenade. Rifles are the only ones who can cast it at great distance, but with similar responsiveness.

    If you're going to be that picky, remember that rifles are the only infantry that needs to pay menpower and fuel for upgrade first and don't have smoke from the get go.

    I think making the smoke launcher a stowable weapon with a delay for equipping will do a lot more for reducing the potency of US smoke than moving it to any other infantry. Especially REs, it's easy as hell to buy and replace them, and all you gotta do is keep 1 relatively near your riflemen.

    That argument can be made for literally any alternative.
    That's why I think putting it on RETs AND further adjusting them to be a viable and wanted unit instead of smoke/zooka bot will help a lot.

  • #44
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited November 2017
    Other (leave feedback below)

    @Katitof said:
    If you're going to be that picky, remember that rifles are the only infantry that needs to pay menpower and fuel for upgrade first and don't have smoke from the get go.

    Well all of the other infantry that have smoke aren't even buildable from the get go, and cost significantly more than riflemen anyway so not sure what you're point there is. IMO the most overpowered thing about Rifle smoke is being able to cast it at the MG that you just walked into the cone of.

    Requiring a toggle for it, and making it take up a weapon slot seems very fair for how much better the smoke is. Let's not forget its ability to slow vehicles, which I've been using a hell of lot more recently and is very valuable in the right situation.

  • #45
    1 year ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    @Esxile said:

    Doesn't make any sense, USF can't build its T1 before 5 minutes while Ostheer can and OKW has almost everything in T0. After 30 seconds, Ostheer have access to Mortar/Sniper/HMGs/Gren and around 2 minutes later Flamethrowers are available.

    Yes - and of all those things there's only one (count 'em, 1) that can stop a Rifleman from just walking forward and meming, and that's the MG - which is countered by the mortar smoke. I don't care how long it takes USF to get T1/2. The argument made was USF has no access to smoke. The reality is USF has the earliest access to smoke, hands down bar none. This isn't a discussion, this is reality vs people who think USF doesn't have enough smoke.

    @Esxile said:
    On the mean time, USF has access to RM and Mortar. I'm discouting RE and Pioner. So according to the fact no one is going to build a mortar before 30 seconds as USF, USF mortar and Ostheer mortar are hitting the field around the same time

    Bad argument is bad and terrible and awful and makes no sense. It's available is the point. That's what I was responding to. Availability. There's also the entire goddamned faction surrounding the units. But lets assume Ostheer and USF have (hilariously) "equal" smoke access at 5 min. USF smokes Ostheers MGs, a-moves forward in to the cloud, Ostheer is forced from the field. What's Ostheer gonna smoke? Volley firing Rear Echelons? The multiplying force it has on the armies is WORLDS apart and that you aren't even addressing that is a joke.

  • #46
    1 year ago
    WhamykablamyWhamykabl… Posts: 9
    edited November 2017

    Would like to pipe in with some "consider the following", some of this has been brought up already:

    For Rear Echelon:

    • It is somewhat redundant as a repair unit because of built in crews for most tanks.
    • It is only combat viable with dual Zooks/BARs, or doctrinal flamethrower.
    • Flamethrower apparently removes smoke.
    • If it is to be buffed, other builder units might need buffs as well to be able to compete/for consistency.

    Officers only:

    • Tying smoke to these will delay it.
    • You will have to tech in order to get more units(infantry) that can use smoke, which might be undesirable.
    • Major will be unable to function as a retreat point if you want him for smoke.
    • Major is not combat effective and is vulnerable to wipes because of small squad size.
    • You may be limited to just one unit(infantry) that can use smoke at all, that is Lieutenant/Captain, unless double tech.

    Also, just to chime in on the Officer option, I think Major could use a bit of a rework to actually be able to fight if this option is implemented.

  • #47
    1 year ago
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    "I rather enjoyed officers being 1 man squads that merged into existing rifles to create a 6 man officer squad."

    So you can merge officers with rifleman squads and than use smokes. 3 solutions in one.

    • Smoke only with officers squads
    • No more MP bleed or "free squads"
    • Will reduce the blobs.
  • #48
    1 year ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    edited November 2017
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented
    @Whamykablamy
    @Bizrock

    Then cast your vote?

    Not voting and still making suggestions is pretty meaningless, since Relic will first and foremost be looking at said votes and THEN the reasons behind them.

    It's the equivalent of standing in the street yelling that(insert random politicians name) is an asshole, but when asked who you then voted for, the answer is; "Oh no one, I just like to be heard anyways..."

    My own vote for the officers is twofold:
    Firstly it would remove the smoke from the RM which is absolutely mandatory imo! RM is already capable of dealing with any, ANY threat on the battlefield; they can steamroll infantry, they can snare vehicles, they can throw frags at opportune targets AND they can double down, because why the fuck not, right! The ONE counter to this is the hmg, which they are currently able to negate as well... this has to go, plain and simple..!

    Secondly, moving the smoke to the officers would give them a specific usage, instead of simply being the non-descript, but still very potent additions to the army they currently are.
  • #49
    1 year ago

    @Bizrock
    Not voting and still making suggestions is pretty meaningless, since Relic will first and foremost be looking at said votes and THEN the reasons behind them.

    It's the equivalent of standing in the street yelling that(insert random politicians name) is an asshole, but when asked who you then voted for, the answer is; "Oh no one, I just like to be heard anyways..."

    No need to make condescending comparisons man.
    Bringing up things to consider will probably have a greater effect(if anyone cares that is) on votes than just mine on its own, and I'm not calling anyone an asshole. Besides, if this trend continues it's either Riflemen or Officers Only anyhow.

    Also, plot twist, what if all politicians suck? Voting isn't going to solve your problem then. Unless you start your own through "other", which, if it is going to be considered at all, will be read by Relic anyways. So there you go.

  • #50
    1 year ago
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented
    Nothing wrong with being indecisive. Sometimes it takes discussion to make up a mind, thats why we have them.
  • #52
    1 year ago
    Cpt. BlitzCpt. Blitz Posts: 729
    edited November 2017
    Riflemen (Live version)

    @Lazarus said:

    @Cpt. Blitz said:
    I voted to leave smoke on Riflemen.

    Until you fix more USF commanders and give abilities like "Smoke Run" on Recon commander, and "Smoke Mortars" on mechanized commander, kinda like Heavy Cav has, there is not enough utility/manueverability to counter the MGs and building play.

    The unholy hell are you talking about? USF is literally the only faction that has T0 MP only smoke access. The only one. Not including RM, they also have it on their officer units, on the Pack, on the mortar, the M20 can be used to pop a smoke screen vs MGs (though we won't count it purely because it's "hard"), the Scott has both pop smoke AND barrage smoke, Every single Sherman variant, and they have a drop call in on 2 of their extremely meta commanders, being Rifle Company and Heavy Cav. They have, hands down - bar none, no argument no discussion no question the MOST ready access to smoke of ALL factions NOT including Riflemen! If you are having trouble with MGs as USF, please post in the strategy section because USF is absolutely not the faction that is weak vs MGs.

    They aren't BECAUSE Riflemen have access to smoke early. The off-map call ins take a while and all the methods u suggested except the Mortar are not readily available at the beginning of the game while the MG42 comes out literally first thing. Also their indirect fire units are weak AF. I said UNTIL they make more smoke accessible then they cant take it off Riflemen. USF is built around Riflemen smoke and utility. Reread, rinse, repeat, before spouting your nonsense.

  • #53
    1 year ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    To make it unique to other officers.

    Lt
    Rifle smoke grenades
    slow wind up and long range

    Capt
    hand smoke grenade
    fast wind up short range almost instant

    Major
    Arty Smoke
    Extreme range
    Long duration of smoke

  • #54
    1 year ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    I don't know but as i know USF uses grenades, smoke, satchel charges and arty as part of their offensive tactics during the WW2.
    So i don't know why is it a problem that us having smoke.

    Sherman jumbo is one of their breakthrough tanks but still its not here in COH2

  • #55
    1 year ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017
    edited November 2017
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented
    > @Cpt. Blitz said:
    > The off-map call ins take a while

    So why then did you suggest MORE offmap call ins? "Off map smoke takes too long to get to be useful, therefore we need more of them" is a terrible suggestion.

    > @Cpt. Blitz said:
    > UNTIL they make more smoke accessible then they cant take it off Riflemen

    Cool - and then *I* said they have THE MOST ACCESIBLE smoke already so how much more do you need? Its clear one of us that isnt me and is you definitely didnt read your post before you posted it, talking about nonsense.


    Heres a thought experiment. Remove RM smoke (leave it on LT). Now list all the factions that have more smoke OR easier to access smoke then the USF. I'll accept either. Take your time, and if you come back with anything that isnt nonsense, I will concede you are correct.
  • #56
    1 year ago
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented
    Soviet: mortar
    Doctrinal: shocks(6), 120mm(3)
    Total:3
    Ost:mortar
    Doctrinal:mortar HT(2), smoke pots(2) literally any vehicle(6)
    Total:4
    Brits: mortar pit vet, cromwell vet, comet, churchill, aec
    Doctrinal: smoke raid, mortar cover (sorta), vehicle cover (3),arty cover, land mattress, commandos (sorta, yes in DBP)
    total:9.5
    Okw: ober vet self damaging poison smoke, leig eventually flak trak, puma
    Doctrinal: fall vet SDPS, sector assault?
    Total: 6.5?
    USF: mortar, pak howi, m20, scott, sherman (not counting rifles on this but we all know..)
    Doctrinal: MHT, E8, 105 sherman (iirc?) Rifle co WP, M8(?) Ranger co smoke shells
    Total 9(maybe up to 11)+1 for rifles

    This is from memory so please dont shoot me if i missed some/counted omes that didnt

    (#) is how many doctrines its in if more than 1
    (?) Means im not certain
  • #57
    1 year ago
    Cpt. BlitzCpt. Blitz Posts: 729
    edited November 2017
    Riflemen (Live version)

    @Lazarus said:
    > @Cpt. Blitz said:
    > The off-map call ins take a while

    So why then did you suggest MORE offmap call ins? "Off map smoke takes too long to get to be useful, therefore we need more of them" is a terrible suggestion.

    > @Cpt. Blitz said:
    > UNTIL they make more smoke accessible then they cant take it off Riflemen

    Cool - and then I said they have THE MOST ACCESIBLE smoke already so how much more do you need? Its clear one of us that isnt me and is you definitely didnt read your post before you posted it, talking about nonsense.


    Heres a thought experiment. Remove RM smoke (leave it on LT). Now list all the factions that have more smoke OR easier to access smoke then the USF. I'll accept either. Take your time, and if you come back with anything that isnt nonsense, I will concede you are correct.

    I'm not going to try and reason with a rock. You've voted so you're going to die clinging to your vote.

    I said it's the Riflemen that need the smoke most, they've had it for 7 years? For good reason. Has it really been a balance issue? No, it's just a chance for ppl to complain about something.

    If you take it away you need to add smoke to other commanders/officers/etc early on to counter the enemy. CP 0, 1 or 2? You also said USF is the only faction with access to free smoke unit right away. That's wrong too (if you're gonna count tier 0 and 1, which you shoudn't in Whermacts case but you probably will)
    Whermact have smoke from their mortar same as USF.

  • #58
    1 year ago
    Riflemen (Live version)

    @Xloss said:
    I don't know but as i know USF uses grenades, smoke, satchel charges and arty as part of their offensive tactics during the WW2.
    So i don't know why is it a problem that us having smoke.

    Sherman jumbo is one of their breakthrough tanks but still its not here in COH2

    YES.

    Where the Hell is the Sherman Jumbo and the Hellcat? Two iconic and important tanks of the war?

  • #59
    1 year ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017
    edited November 2017
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented
    > @Cpt. Blitz said:
    > You also said USF is the only faction with access to free smoke unit right away. That's wrong too, Whermact have smoke from their mortar.

    BRRRT OH! We have a new challenger for most wrong in one sentence! No, what I said was USF are the only ones with access to MP only smoke. For those of you playing at home the Infantry Company (Ostheers T1 building) costs fuel, which means they DONT get fuel free smoke. Unfortunately we dont do consolation prizes so youll be going home empty handed.


    You can go ahead and try to prove me wrong - but if you read Darkarmadillos post you'll see the facts pointedly disagree with you
  • #60
    1 year ago
    Cpt. BlitzCpt. Blitz Posts: 729
    edited November 2017
    Riflemen (Live version)

    @Lazarus said:
    > @Cpt. Blitz said:
    > You also said USF is the only faction with access to free smoke unit right away. That's wrong too, Whermact have smoke from their mortar.

    BRRRT OH! We have a new challenger for most wrong in one sentence! No, what I said was USF are the only ones with access to MP only smoke. For those of you playing at home the Infantry Company (Ostheers T1 building) costs fuel, which means they DONT get fuel free smoke. Unfortunately we dont do consolation prizes so youll be going home empty handed.


    You can go ahead and try to prove me wrong - but if you read Darkarmadillos post you'll see the facts pointedly disagree with you

    You like to think ppl are trying to prove a point to you but you just suck them in to your own fantasy of a challenge? hahahahah. It doesn't matter what the specifics are...

    Let me spell it out for you.

    ~ Riflemen have their smoke, they need their smoke, and they'll keep their smoke ~

    The Poll shows that the majority agree.

    Bye Felicia

  • #61
    1 year ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017
    edited November 2017
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented
    > @Cpt. Blitz said:
    >
    > The Poll shows that the majority agree.

    It also shows the majority are wrong. Still waiting for that magical faction that has more or quicker smoke than T0 no fuel. Thats all it takes for me to say you're right. A single solitary fact.

    Let me spell it out for *you*. Riflemen as a unit need their smoke the least out of anything ever in the existence of CoH, including CoH1. Having a horde of people who like easy blobs voting doesnt change that.
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