USF SMOKE - Which USF Squad should have access to smoke grenades?

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  • #62
    3 years ago
    EsxileEsxile Posts: 15
    Other (leave feedback below)

    @Lazarus said:

    It also shows the majority are wrong. Still waiting for that magical faction that has more or quicker smoke than T0 no fuel. Thats all it takes for me to say you're right. A single solitary fact.

    Let me spell it out for you. Riflemen as a unit need their smoke the least out of anything ever in the existence of CoH, including CoH1. Having a horde of people who like easy blobs voting doesnt change that.

    In Coh1, USF has an effective close range Engineer squad with Flamethrower and jeep.

    I don't really follow your point about predominant USF smoke access, it is like asking to remove the Oshteer sniper, Ostwind or stug because USF have none of them or only doctrinal version. Smoke is a main feature of USF, They are at the same time powerful and expensive. Expensive to unlock and expensive to use but rewarding if correctly managed. On the same time Dave already explained the main factor of USF blob has been nerfed in the patch so I repeat myself but I can't really follow your point.

    Now if 3 or 4 squads are starting firing at your HMG alone, hit the retreat button because of course your HMG isn't going to sustain the amount of fire for long. You are supposed to have other units to support it, where are they, what are they doing is the kind of question you should ask yourself facing such situation. Maybe next time build a bunker, maybe a second HMG, maybe rush T3 Ostwind... I don't know its all depend on the situation but stop blaming the other player for using a strategy that is counterable today and will be even more counterable tomorrow with the patch.

  • #63
    3 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    edited November 2017
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    @Esxile said:
    I don't really follow your point about predominant USF smoke access, it is like asking to remove the Oshteer sniper, Ostwind or stug because USF have none of them or only doctrinal version.

    The reason you don't follow is because it's absolutely nothing like what I'm saying at all. I'm not saying remove it because nobody else has it. I'm saying remove it because their mainline infantry does not need it because they have it in literally every single tier building bar none and even if you exclude rifle smoke from the equation, they still have the most smoke options, including the earliest and cheapest. Give me an excuse for why RM need smoke when they are literally surrounded by it and will still have the most smoke out of all factions when RM smoke is gone.

    I dunno what that second paragraph is about but it's got nothing to do with me, so here's this little thing to help you along.

    @Lazarus said:

    Heres a thought experiment. Remove RM smoke (leave it on LT). Now list all the factions that have more smoke OR easier to access smoke then the USF. I'll accept either. Take your time, and if you come back with anything that isnt nonsense, I will concede you are correct.

  • #64
    3 years ago

    I think this survey is fundamentally flawed. It should be broken into two surveys. One - "Live version" vs "Change" and the second one with possible solutions/changes. The way it is constructed, it is not suprising that the option "live version" is winning, as people who are in favor of a change have their votes divided into several categories. The way I see it all the "change" options should be summed up and then compared with "live option" votes, to see if more people support change. Then it should be decided what kind of change should be implemented.

  • #65
    3 years ago
    EsxileEsxile Posts: 15
    Other (leave feedback below)

    @Lazarus said:
    Heres a thought experiment. Remove RM smoke (leave it on LT). Now list all the factions that have more smoke OR easier to access smoke then the USF. I'll accept either. Take your time, and if you come back with anything that isnt nonsense, I will concede you are correct.

    Sounds to me what I said before, list all factions having sniper, Stuglike or Ostwindlike and remove them as an experiment. And I already debunk your "earliest smoke option" comment. USF as any other factions need tools to work, you can't simply remove some and say it is still balance because you have some other tools left over.
    It is sad to see that your idea is all about doing a straight nerf to USF because that's what you want and the end. The smoke poll is just a way to do it.

    Note that I'm not against removing smoke from riflemen, if you see my vote and my comment about it but it is all about re-balancing the faction with other tools in exchange, so the faction get some more diversity and the game stay competitive.

  • #66
    3 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    @Esxile said:

    Sounds to me what I said before,

    Then read it again because it sounds nothing like it. You can't remove the sniper and not impact Ost, because Ost has nothing to replace the sniper with - nothing else that does the snipers job. You can't remove the Ostwind, because Ost has nothing else that does the Ostwinds job. You can't remove the StuG, because Ost definitely has nothing else that does the StuGs job. You CAN remove smoke from RM, because the USF has mortars, pack howitzers, LT, Scott, Sherman, 105mm, EZ8, ranger doc, M21 mortar HT, Rifle Co. There. Your really bad example has been so thoroughly debunked that if you bring it up again I'll ignore it.

    @Esxile said:
    And I already debunk your "earliest smoke option" comment.

    You did no such thing. You typed words and strung a sentence together, but unsurprisingly you're objectively and factually wrong on a basic level that cannot be argued. You also never told me what exactly Ostheer needed to smoke or what they'd assault with in that early period.

    @Esxile said:
    USF as any other factions need tools to work, you can't simply remove some and say it is still balance because you have some other tools left over.

    No - but you CAN remove some and say it's still balanced because you have THE SAME tools left over. It's literally why the 60mm was added to the roster - the specific reason, as an alternative to smoke grenades.

    @Esxile said:
    It is sad to see that your idea is all about doing a straight nerf to USF because that's what you want and the end. The smoke poll is just a way to do it.

    It is sad to see that your idea is all about doing a straight buff to USF because that's what you want and the end. The smoke poll is just a way to do it.

    @Esxile said:

    Note that I'm not against removing smoke from riflemen, if you see my vote and my comment about it but it is all about re-balancing the faction with other tools in exchange, so the faction get some more diversity and the game stay competitive.

    Funny thing is - if you saw my vote you'd have seen the same thing :D

  • #67
    3 years ago
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    @ClassyDavid said:

    When I play OST I'm more fearful of a USF player who splits up his army and strikes multiple directions with smoke allowing him to move up and engage. Sadly that's a rare USF player to find as that's taxing on one's micro to do such a attack.

    This is EXACTLY how USF players should play. By splitting up and not letting all of the units get suppressed if they encounter an mg. Like you said most USF don't play like you because they can simply get away with brute force by 1) smoking the mg after getting suppressed and then spreading out a bit or 2) kill the mg gunner with their bar blob so fast the gunner didn't even know what happened. You can't expect another squad to cover the FRONT of the mg at ALL times. Usually if you're thin on infantry you use them to cover the mg flanks, not the front where the mg is pointed at. Yes, if the mg gets flanked, it's Ostheer's fault, but getting the mg killed from a brute force frontal attack, from getting the gunner killed is one of the biggest problems Ostheer faces in the early and mid game.

    I find it amusing people argue USF takes no skill to micro yet defending a position, moving back a mg, and moving up Grens is the epitome of skill? Not saying OST doesn't need a good amount of micro against a good USF player it's just absurd to read. Both factions require a good amount of micro to function well with attacking as USF and defending as OST.

    Of course every faction requires skill but some factions require MORE skill than others. When you're playing a reactive faction like Ost vs a proactive faction like USF, USF has the upper hand in ease of micro. Spreading out your troops is far easier to do than reacting to a player that spreads out his troops. Blobbing and throwing smoke is far easier than backpedaling grens and mgs AND finding decent cover to fall back on AND keeping track of potential flanking squads that the mg may not suppress in time.

    If you have a MG alone and a Rifle squad moves up and grenades, flanks it, etc. why the hell would you leave a lone MG squad in the first place?

    Who said anything about leaving mgs on their own? If the USF player was able to flank it without smoke or gettting suppressed, then it means that the USF player already had intel on the mg position or the Ost player failed to position it properly to anticipate the direction of the attack. Full marks to the USF player here.

    With the rework of On Me! USF blobs have lost their power.

    There's a replay I believe Dane casted where a USF player blobbed his infantry up and was hard to keep down simply due to On Me! I used layered MGs and kept my forces spread out to keep him suppressed and the only reason it didn't work as well was due to On Me! If he tried it on DBP he would've lost far sooner simple as that.

    Or the reason that you succeeded is the fact that you're top ten in both USF and OST and have intricate knowledge of both factions. 99.99% of players are inferior to you. And you just said that the USF blobbed up his infantry. What if he spread out his infantry? That would be tough to defend even for a top ten Ost player like you.

  • #68
    3 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited November 2017
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    The thing about Ost is that when you defend, you rely a lot on suppression. All the other factions rely on raw dps. If a squad is able to even slightly get past the arc of the mg and you can't get infantry to intercept the flanker in time, the mg has to retreat. For other factions, lets say OKW has a volk waiting in green cover defending a position. Along comes some riflemen and they attempt to close in. Let's say the RNG gods hate those volks and they miss a lot of the shots while the rifles were closing in. Now the engagement is stacked against the volks. However, they don't have to retreat right away because 1) they can still do decent damage 2) They can move further back into another piece of cover to try to get support from other squads 3) they don't have a setup time to fire k98 and 4) they don't have a ridiculous 1.25 RA penalty on their men. This logic applies to all other factions as well except Ostheer which have grens that can't even defend a position even when they are in green cover because rifle/penal can afford to close in and still win while IS can duke it out if they can find similar cover. WHICH MEANS DEFENDING FOR THE OTHER FACTIONS ARE A LOT LESS MICRO INTENSIVE.

    I'm sick of people who think that the micro skill required for all factions are equal.

    Hence whether or not rifles have smoke is a BIG DEAL.

  • #69
    3 years ago
    Lnk003Lnk003 Posts: 420
    edited December 2017
    Other (leave feedback below)

    I voted other but since we need to comment:
    Smoke on RM but maybe change the nature of the smoke grenade to restrict it's usage. As ex make it short range and defensive oriented like shock troops smoke grenades but with less range. Right now since the throw can cover significant ground you can effectively use them for pretty much everything. That way you could break suppression (and work to counter it) or lower the sniper bleed either that way or with the mortar witch would have for benefit to cover more range/ a bigger area.
    Another solution could be to make usf tech more linear, lower the fu cost of lt and make m20 more accessible (cost like what you did in the abandonned update), lock aa ht behind an upgrade like the aec. That way you could remove smoke from RM.

    I think smoke on RE doesn't really achieve anything, they are the least valuable engi since they don't shine in combat like sturm, or don't complete the RM like Royal E complete IS. So for combat they are just redundant with rm but less effective.
    Crews can repair their vehicules and the new mines is imo not that attractive. Lss they need to become something else and even then, imo, like in any other factions most of the time you won't build more than 2 of those at best -witch still gives you plenty of smoke-.
    Same for only on officers. The smoke is locked behind an upgrade that would benefit for 3 squads only if you happen to build all 3. Imo the RM grenade is not that interesting in live and even less interesting now squads will be more spaced out.
    So lss for both cases it would become a waste of time to go for that upgrade and you might as well just build a mortar so i guess my first suggestion is to not change from live game that much (even if countering mgs would require more work) or have a choice between mortar or try to get m20 (m20 for smoke + counter on sniper + -real- mines).

  • #70
    3 years ago
    Other (leave feedback below)

    I think removing the smoke but giving usf a willies jeep would be the best option. However, infantry should not be able to get inside or shoot out the back of it. It would be simply be used for scouting ahead.

  • #71
    3 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    edited November 2017
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented
    @ClassyDavid

    As much respect as I have for your skills at this game(I've watched more than a few of your replays), there a few of your points that I do not agree with.
    Likewise @1ncendiary_Rounds, I do believe you hit the nail pretty much dead on.

    The Ost may be just another faction in this game same USF, brits and all the others.
    And personally I guess I am biased towards the Ost, since it's my main by far.
    But as I've stated numerous times before, I certainly don't wont to simply stomp my opponent due to balancing. I play the game because it's fun and that would simply suck all the joy out of it.

    But with that being said...

    The Ost vs USF line-up is perhaps the one where smoke on RM become the most troublesome.
    Ost is, as @1ncendiary_Rounds pointed out, by and large a reactionary army. It's starting strength is, up to and including early midgame, generally speaking too underwhelming to actively pursue an aggressive approach against an allied opponent of equal prowess. Of course exceptions do exists for exceptional players in the very highest tiers of play, but for the rest of us average players that's the sad truth.

    Now, being a reactionary force means two things;

    First, it means that Intel on your opponents it very important, since you can't react to what you don't know about.

    Second, it means that you have very, if not extremely specialized units, designed to counter very specific circumstances, very effectively.
    Case in point, the Hmg42.
    It's an mg tailormade to deny area to your opponent via high suppression and large firing arc.
    With it, the Ost can(reasonably well) defend an area against a slightly(obviously not hugely,that would be broken af) superior force, thus allowing the Ost to do what it does best; counter-attack.

    This is COMPLETELY negated against the USF because of RM smoke! Even a below average USF player can win an early'ish engagement against a superior dug in Ost opponent, because all it takes are a smoke or two from your STARTING infantry squad, and the entire Ost line needs to reposition. This more often than not results in an all-out collapse and retreat, because the overwhelming firepower of RM would otherwise threaten to wipe several squads. HMG42's takes time to setup again and grens are abysmal on the move.

    For those of you who made it through this wall of text;

    TL;DR:

    Smoke on RM against Ost simply negates the very thing it's supposed to do best, and tilts almost every early-early/midgame engagement in the USF favor.
    USF has smoke on the mortar which available early on as well.

    Why the hell can't they just use that instead like every other faction?!(Bar the Brits, but they are "spee-zi-all" in many ways, axis or allied...
    Wasent that more or less the whole point of the USF getting that damn mortar to begin with? To "divisify" their opening build instead of just relying on RM for everything? And now that USF has gotten the mortar;
    "Well screw that shit!! We're keeping it AND the smoke on RM, because it's just a hoot turning every single battleground into a marijuana dispensary with all that smoke! Oh, and fuck you, that's why.!!"
  • #72
    3 years ago
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    @Baálthazor said:

    USF has smoke on the mortar which available early on as well.

    Why the hell can't they just use that instead like every other faction?!(Bar the Brits, but they are "spee-zi-all" in many ways, axis or allied...
    Wasent that more or less the whole point of the USF getting that damn mortar to begin with? To "divisify" their opening build instead of just relying on RM for everything? And now that USF has gotten the mortar;
    "Well screw that shit!! We're keeping it AND the smoke on RM, because it's just a hoot turning every single battleground into a marijuana dispensary with all that smoke! Oh, and fuck you, that's why.!!"

    My thoughts exactly. USF were already given more than enough tools to deal with Ost. USF players simply need to adapt and stop blobbing. Instead of just pushing around some riflemen, the USF need to now micro a mortar (to keep it in supporting range for smoke) or include a RE/officer in their attacks to throw smoke. Is that too much to ask for USF players? Ost needs to manage far more in the early game. A faction that requires direction dependant support weapons to have any chance of survival needs far more micro than a faction that only needs general infantry and maybe a mortar.

  • #73
    3 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited November 2017
    Other (leave feedback below)

    @Lazarus said:
    Riflemen as a unit need their smoke the least out of anything ever in the existence of CoH, including CoH1.

    Maybe the unit itself in vacuum doesn't need it, but with the lack of options they have surrounding that unit in the early game, they absolutely do. And US need riflemen to do so much at so many different points in the game too that I think its better to keep it on the squad, but make it less brainless.

    I see a lot of people here saying riflemen losing their smoke is a must for this patch. I would love more feedback on my weapon slot idea with the equip delay that both reduces the potency of smoke AND double equipping; it becomes one or the other. The smoke launcher would become an native upgrade to the squad (like lmg42, dps, flamethrower, etc.), and now they are limited to 1 thing from the racks (regardless if the launcher is stowed or not obviously). Still needs the tech from the hq too.

  • #74
    3 years ago
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    @Lazarus said:

    @Cpt. Blitz said:
    I voted to leave smoke on Riflemen.

    Until you fix more USF commanders and give abilities like "Smoke Run" on Recon commander, and "Smoke Mortars" on mechanized commander, kinda like Heavy Cav has, there is not enough utility/manueverability to counter the MGs and building play.

    The unholy hell are you talking about? USF is literally the only faction that has T0 MP only smoke access. The only one. Not including RM, they also have it on their officer units, on the Pack, on the mortar, the M20 can be used to pop a smoke screen vs MGs (though we won't count it purely because it's "hard"), the Scott has both pop smoke AND barrage smoke, Every single Sherman variant, and they have a drop call in on 2 of their extremely meta commanders, being Rifle Company and Heavy Cav. They have, hands down - bar none, no argument no discussion no question the MOST ready access to smoke of ALL factions NOT including Riflemen! If you are having trouble with MGs as USF, please post in the strategy section because USF is absolutely not the faction that is weak vs MGs.

    I agree with this not only because it's true, but because before the USF was released i feel as if the dev team forgot to check on how many units in the USF had access in smoke...Yes that's right, i feel like they forgot. In their hype of releasing this new faction they forgot the balance aspect. I'm all for having a versatile faction, (i really am, especially with usf's grab-n-go guns, and each-tank-comes-with-a-free-engineer) but it's flat out broken how many of their units have access to such a powerful ability, that can be used almost to the point of exploiting variables of the game.

  • #75
    3 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @Lazarus said:
    Riflemen as a unit need their smoke the least out of anything ever in the existence of CoH, including CoH1.

    Maybe the unit itself in vacuum doesn't need it, but with the lack of options they have surrounding that unit in the early game, they absolutely do. And US need riflemen to do so much at so many different points in the game too that I think its better to keep it on the squad, but make it less brainless.

    I see a lot of people here saying riflemen losing their smoke is a must for this patch. I would love more feedback on my weapon slot idea with the equip delay that both reduces the potency of smoke AND double equipping; it becomes one or the other. The smoke launcher would become an native upgrade to the squad (like lmg42, dps, flamethrower, etc.), and now they are limited to 1 thing from the racks (regardless if the launcher is stowed or not obviously). Still needs the tech from the hq too.

    I like that it's outside the box - but here's the thing. This is truly a core issue of USF vs Ostheer, easily and while double equip'd bars are just... awful vs Ost, even single equipped BARs on a handful of RM is still easily enough to roll over Osts infantry, barring vetted PGrens. A massive amount of Osts capacity to fight Western infantry lives and dies on their ability to use support weapons to tip the fight in their favor, and realistically no matter how you divvy it up - having your main fighting force carrying smoke which invalidates Osts primary method of stalling Western Inf so PGrens can move is just always going to be a problem. Again, given that without Riflemen, USF still has a smoke dispenser in literally every tier I can not for the life of me figure out why it needs to be on their infantry as well.

  • #76
    3 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited November 2017
    Other (leave feedback below)

    @Lazarus said:
    Again, given that without Riflemen, USF still has a smoke dispenser in literally every tier I can not for the life of me figure out why it needs to be on their infantry as well.

    I mean the biggest reason for me is the lateness of the first tech-up, especially if you choose to unlock smoke/nades. I don't disagree with your point on Ost's reliance on support weapons, but my point is that making it an equip-able launcher with a delay reduces how potent it is against them. You wouldn't be able to panic smoke your way out of an MGs ARC unless you equipped the launcher say like 7 seconds before you got there.

    Also smoke is not THAT widely available in the LT and Cap tier. It's really only on the Pak Howy's vet 1 WP, and it's on the LT officer IF you get the nade tech. The Scot and Sherman give you fantastic smoke abilities, no dispute their, but that's awfully late and US need riflemen to carry them to that point.

  • #77
    3 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited December 2017
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    @Lazarus said:
    > @Cpt. Blitz said:
    >
    > The Poll shows that the majority agree.

    It also shows the majority are wrong. Still waiting for that magical faction that has more or quicker smoke than T0 no fuel. Thats all it takes for me to say you're right. A single solitary fact.

    Let me spell it out for you. Riflemen as a unit need their smoke the least out of anything ever in the existence of CoH, including CoH1. Having a horde of people who like easy blobs voting doesnt change that.

    I agree with this point 200%. Of course the USF players are going to want to keep their faction OP hence most of them will vote riflemen. Their reason? Oh, it's because we're entitled to it and riflemen are supposed to be jack-of-all-trades and flexible and what not and what are we gonna do against mgs? Funny, if riflemen were so flexible why did the same group of USF players cry for a mortar? They already had rifle smoke? But it's a mortar and I don't wanna micro something that needs to be kept in supporting range. I just wanna push my riflemen blob around and smash everything in my way with brute force and American machismo.

  • #79
    3 years ago
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    @le12ro said:
    (moderator input) this poll allows you to give the developers a bit of feedback about this particular ability. Please don't turn this thread into a segmented 'us vs them' type of discussion. There are people out there who do care about fun abilities in a balanced game!

    There in lies the problem, the overall problem, to much of an ability.
    Every usf unit does not need a smoke canister in their pocket, especially not their already potent core infantry.

  • #80
    3 years ago
    Riflemen (Live version)

    @Lazarus said:

    I like that it's outside the box - but here's the thing. This is truly a core issue of USF vs Ostheer, easily and while double equip'd bars are just... awful vs Ost, even single equipped BARs on a handful of RM is still easily enough to roll over Osts infantry, barring vetted PGrens. A massive amount of Osts capacity to fight Western infantry lives and dies on their ability to use support weapons to tip the fight in their favor, and realistically no matter how you divvy it up - having your main fighting force carrying smoke which invalidates Osts primary method of stalling Western Inf so PGrens can move is just always going to be a problem. Again, given that without Riflemen, USF still has a smoke dispenser in literally every tier I can not for the life of me figure out why it needs to be on their infantry as well.

    For the first part that is simply untrue. Grens still do very well with single BAR Rifles even with them both being veterancy 3. Only when duel BARs are equipped (Which only equal a LMG42 at max sight range for both squads) do Rifles start to easily handle Grens. Not to mention if a Rifle squad even with duel BARs and vet 3 (same with Grens) they'll win which Rifles are suppose to very well due given the design of USF but wounded and losing at least two models. Grens are seemingly underestimated when playing against USF apparently as they can bleed USF quite well if used correctly due to Rifles reinforcement cost and purpose of being the mainstay of the faction compared to OST who rely on support weapons. Rifles NEED smoke grenades to prevent bleed USF suffers from so much. It allow USF to engage a assault from multiple angles to gain that close range advantage.

    The issue of smoke for USF is when it comes and how it's delivered. USF mortar can't be everywhere at any time. (Not including the fact smoke barrage bugs out so damn much which is why I forgo it so often) The USF mortar also sets back USF early game which is a risky thing due to how powerful OST late game is. Slowing down USF early map control is critical decision and so is the grenade package which costs 25(!) fuel to unlock further slowing down USF tech. This includes how much USF spends in munitions if they keep using smoke grenades and other abilities which starts to add up startling quickly. Every smoke they use is another 15 munitions which can be negated through pulling back and having secondary defenses.

    USF other forms of smoke such as Sherman's comes late and at a hefty 30 munitions, Scott is also late and shares it smoke barrage cool down with its normal barrage which is quite important, Pack howitzer WP isn't considered a smoke barrage due to hurting friendly troops as well, LT is locked via tech so it's up to the player to go CPT or LT.

    The only free smoke USF has is the mortar and Scotts. Everything else comes at a cost and the USF player goes for BARs then they'll have no munitions for grenades and vice versa unless USF is prevented from gaining munition points.

  • #81
    3 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    edited December 2017
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    @ClassyDavid said:

    The issue of smoke for USF is when it comes and how it's delivered. USF mortar can't be everywhere at any time.

    That's exactly the bloody point though - is it not? That you need to have the foresight to bring the right tool to the right place and if you don't you get punished? God forbid USF build something other than riflemen - like the mortar that was added specifically because USF players insisted they wanted to build something other than riflemen. Again, it's in T0 because the powers that be decided there should be an alternative to smoke grenades. If it's not filling that role clearly it can be removed again.

    @ClassyDavid said:
    The USF mortar also sets back USF early game which is a risky thing due to how powerful OST late game is.

    No it doesn't. I'm not even going to entertain this so don't bring it up again. It's fuel free and you can easily get it after your 3rd Rifleman without suffering map control issues. Also, Osts "powerful" lategame? Are you perhaps forgetting USFs biggest change in the DBP is a pretty tremendously buffed Jackson, allowing USF to join the other Allied factions in the meta of "AI inf, TD spam, win"? Unless you bring out an Elefant doctrine Ost easily has the weakest late game because their armor just gets zoned by TDs and bullied completely out of the fight. Hell, T4 is only just now usable in things less than 4 v 4.

    @ClassyDavid said:
    Every smoke they use is another 15 munitions which can be negated through pulling back and having secondary defenses.

    Exactly. Because the USF might have 15 munitions, every single one of Osts defenses needs to have an entire other defensive line right behind it. Ost doesn't have double pop cap or double MP income. Spreading them thin as USF is one of the easiest things in the world unless you're on a select few maps.

    @ClassyDavid said:

    Pack howitzer WP isn't considered a smoke barrage due to hurting friendly troops as well

    Not having any of that. With Obers and Falls, that point makes sense because they have the throwing range of an arthritic 70 year old. Pack Howitzers are flinging that stuff at mortar range - you can easily obscure a target (or hell, just poison it) without having to get right next to it.

    @ClassyDavid said:
    LT is locked via tech so it's up to the player to go CPT or LT.

    Yes. It is up to the player to go Cpt or LT, but it doesn't matter which one you pick, you still unlock a new form of smoke and still have your T0 smoke available.

    If you people were talking about... say the Soviets - who have very few smoke options available (it would be a terrible idea because sprint, but whatever) you'd have a point. They need smoke for assaults, they don't have it and in fact can outright screw themselves out of smoke altogether. Fine. But this is the USF. You literally can not pick a single tech without getting smoke and more smoke. This is the faction that has the most smoke options. Nobody has given me anything that looks like a convincing reason why the faction with the most smoke, needs it on their core infantry too.

  • #82
    3 years ago
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented
    Im inclined to agree with @Lazarus. While USF lacks infantry diversity (officers could be key here if made more unique) they certainly do not lack options for smoke. While OST is supposed tonbe built around using an army to support team weapons usf should be using their army to support their rifles instead of just using rifles to support more rifles. There will never be any diversity as long as there is no cause for it and live rifles leave little cause for it.
  • #83
    3 years ago
    Riflemen (Live version)

    @Lazarus said:

    @ClassyDavid said:

    The issue of smoke for USF is when it comes and how it's delivered. USF mortar can't be everywhere at any time.

    That's exactly the bloody point though - is it not? That you need to have the foresight to bring the right tool to the right place and if you don't you get punished? God forbid USF build something other than riflemen - like the mortar that was added specifically because USF players insisted they wanted to build something other than riflemen. Again, it's in T0 because the powers that be decided there should be an alternative to smoke grenades. If it's not filling that role clearly it can be removed again.

    I agree USF mortar SHOULDN'T be a smoke dispenser given the whole reason it is used is to dislodge buildings. USF builds Rifles due to RE lacking combat power and with the DPB there will be more RE's thanks to their increased utility via improved Volley Fire. Also it is more due to timing of elite troops, cp and mp costs, and need of upgrades is why Rangers or Paratroopers aren't seen often and Rifles are so used. Other mainline infantry have abilities to win a engagement. Grens with rifle grenade, Volks flame grenade (which is strong due to denial of cover and instant detonation), Conscripts sprint with potential SMGs (and much improved Molotov with DBP), and IS sheer durability and long range power. All other squads have a ability to engage a position. Rifles have smoke grenades.

    @ClassyDavid said:
    The USF mortar also sets back USF early game which is a risky thing due to how powerful OST late game is.

    No it doesn't. I'm not even going to entertain this so don't bring it up again. It's fuel free and you can easily get it after your 3rd Rifleman without suffering map control issues. Also, Osts "powerful" lategame? Are you perhaps forgetting USFs biggest change in the DBP is a pretty tremendously buffed Jackson, allowing USF to join the other Allied factions in the meta of "AI inf, TD spam, win"? Unless you bring out an Elefant doctrine Ost easily has the weakest late game because their armor just gets zoned by TDs and bullied completely out of the fight. Hell, T4 is only just now usable in things less than 4 v 4.

    I should've added all my opinions are based on 1s which is my fault for mentioning. I even do agree with Jackson becoming too powerful in 1s with the new changes in a hands of skilled player. Saying that to say OST has a weaker late game than USF is, can't put it any other terms, ludicrous. OST has heavy armor which if the game drags on will turn the game into their favor. They have all the tools without need to turn to doctrines. PGs out scaled any USF unit outside of Paratroopers & Rangers. They have superior support weapons and still very competent mainline infantry. They have superior armor as well with Panzer 4's, Stugs, and Ostwind (okay is it a bit meh glad to see that buffed).

    Back to mortar it actually does in 1s due to having to slow down tech when every minute counts early game and mid game for USF and that extra 240 MP means a delay in tech, light vehicles, etc. Which is huge in a highly skilled match. If you delay USF ambulance or tech even a few minutes longer is a win as they'll suffer bleed longer with wounded squads and more preparation for that inevitable light vehicle.

    @ClassyDavid said:
    Every smoke they use is another 15 munitions which can be negated through pulling back and having secondary defenses.

    Exactly. Because the USF might have 15 munitions, every single one of Osts defenses needs to have an entire other defensive line right behind it. Ost doesn't have double pop cap or double MP income. Spreading them thin as USF is one of the easiest things in the world unless you're on a select few maps.

    Should've clarified better but the USF smoke grenade covers a smaller point compared to smoke barrage. There is no issue for a Grenadier squad to simply pull back as the Rifle have to stop and fire a smoke grenade which gives time for OST to pull back and simply set up again. If USF spends munitions every engagement that they "might" win is a small victory for Axis. I shouldn't also say another defensive line like bunkers, mines, etc but even just pulling back a squad or a few squads and resetting up.

    @ClassyDavid said:

    Pack howitzer WP isn't considered a smoke barrage due to hurting friendly troops as well

    Not having any of that. With Obers and Falls, that point makes sense because they have the throwing range of an arthritic 70 year old. Pack Howitzers are flinging that stuff at mortar range - you can easily obscure a target (or hell, just poison it) without having to get right next to it.

    Two different units with different abilities. Obers and Falls WP grenade is meant to be a defensive action while the Packs howitzer is absurdly expensive and quite frankly not worth the 380 MP cost. PH WP limits the ability for USF to flank which is pivotal as it negates a area USF can attack as well. Yes it can use be used to obscure a target but not in the same application a smoke barrage is used in terms of allowing a attack through it (covering a attack group as they have to avoid it). Same reason why USF never use tank traps as it limits their tanks ability to maneuver.

    @ClassyDavid said:
    LT is locked via tech so it's up to the player to go CPT or LT.

    Yes. It is up to the player to go Cpt or LT, but it doesn't matter which one you pick, you still unlock a new form of smoke and still have your T0 smoke available.

    PH WP isn't the same as a smoke barrage as explained above. LT is simply another squad with a smoke grenade so don't know how it is the same as Rifles having smoke grenades.

    If you people were talking about... say the Soviets - who have very few smoke options available (it would be a terrible idea because sprint, but whatever) you'd have a point. They need smoke for assaults, they don't have it and in fact can outright screw themselves out of smoke altogether. Fine. But this is the USF. You literally can not pick a single tech without getting smoke and more smoke. This is the faction that has the most smoke options. Nobody has given me anything that looks like a convincing reason why the faction with the most smoke, needs it on their core infantry too.

    Because of USF bleed mate. Seriously out of all the faction people say USF bleeds the most and for good reason due to Rifles & Officer squads bearing the brunt of fighting and being the main stain of fighting. That's fine as USF was made for that in mind. Rifles NEED smoke grenades as a way to reduce bleed as much as possible. I wouldn't complain if the USF mortar got removed or re worked. USF shouldn't be forced to get a mortar every time they smoke as they're meant to be the most mobile faction and smoke grenades represent that quite well.

  • #84
    3 years ago
    Riflemen (Live version)

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    @ClassyDavid said:

    When I play OST I'm more fearful of a USF player who splits up his army and strikes multiple directions with smoke allowing him to move up and engage. Sadly that's a rare USF player to find as that's taxing on one's micro to do such a attack.

    This is EXACTLY how USF players should play. By splitting up and not letting all of the units get suppressed if they encounter an mg. Like you said most USF don't play like you because they can simply get away with brute force by 1) smoking the mg after getting suppressed and then spreading out a bit or 2) kill the mg gunner with their bar blob so fast the gunner didn't even know what happened. You can't expect another squad to cover the FRONT of the mg at ALL times. Usually if you're thin on infantry you use them to cover the mg flanks, not the front where the mg is pointed at. Yes, if the mg gets flanked, it's Ostheer's fault, but getting the mg killed from a brute force frontal attack, from getting the gunner killed is one of the biggest problems Ostheer faces in the early and mid game.

    Yes at times a HMG42 isn't able to engage a blob and suppress quick enough before suppressing them but that is a rare occurrence and more due to the MG positioning. Use yellow cover if green cover isn't available to make it where the crew men are in front as a HMG will win every time if the gunner is one in the back. If they do blob and get suppress then smoke then it is up to the OST player to re set up and allow other forces to stay engaged due to smoke grenades smaller cone compared to a smoke barrage. Like I said in the replay that USF wouldn't have been able to blob if On Me! wasn't the way it is in live. I let my HMG suppress him then either moved up my other squads to keep them suppressed or have another MG placed further back.

    I find it amusing people argue USF takes no skill to micro yet defending a position, moving back a mg, and moving up Grens is the epitome of skill? Not saying OST doesn't need a good amount of micro against a good USF player it's just absurd to read. Both factions require a good amount of micro to function well with attacking as USF and defending as OST.

    Of course every faction requires skill but some factions require MORE skill than others. When you're playing a reactive faction like Ost vs a proactive faction like USF, USF has the upper hand in ease of micro. Spreading out your troops is far easier to do than reacting to a player that spreads out his troops. Blobbing and throwing smoke is far easier than backpedaling grens and mgs AND finding decent cover to fall back on AND keeping track of potential flanking squads that the mg may not suppress in time.

    That's more due to player skill as some are better at defending than attacking or vice versa. Blobbing and throwing smoke is easier but then they aren't spreading out their squads. Yes you have to deal with the occasional flanking squads but that is why you have support troops in form of Grens and PGs to deal with such threats.

    If you have a MG alone and a Rifle squad moves up and grenades, flanks it, etc. why the hell would you leave a lone MG squad in the first place?

    Who said anything about leaving mgs on their own? If the USF player was able to flank it without smoke or gettting suppressed, then it means that the USF player already had intel on the mg position or the Ost player failed to position it properly to anticipate the direction of the attack. Full marks to the USF player here.

    That was more due to some players complaining their lone MG was smoked and grenade.

    With the rework of On Me! USF blobs have lost their power.

    There's a replay I believe Dane casted where a USF player blobbed his infantry up and was hard to keep down simply due to On Me! I used layered MGs and kept my forces spread out to keep him suppressed and the only reason it didn't work as well was due to On Me! If he tried it on DBP he would've lost far sooner simple as that.

    Or the reason that you succeeded is the fact that you're top ten in both USF and OST and have intricate knowledge of both factions. 99.99% of players are inferior to you. And you just said that the USF blobbed up his infantry. What if he spread out his infantry? That would be tough to defend even for a top ten Ost player like you.

    Thing is if you base balance around the majority than it skewers balance at the top level. Starcraft has always balanced around the competitive scene and it's balance is great (though yes having three factions only is easier to balance around then five and they're are very different RTS games)

    Yes as it should be. OST shouldn't be too easy to defend and having to defend a assault like that is meant to test both players. Is isn't easy to engage a large assault with a spread out force as that is micro heavy and why it isn't seen often.
    Honestly even a lower skilled player would've beat that USF player if that On Me! wasn't such a pain in the arse.

  • #85
    3 years ago
    Riflemen (Live version)

    @Baálthazor said:
    @ClassyDavid

    As much respect as I have for your skills at this game(I've watched more than a few of your replays), there a few of your points that I do not agree with.
    Likewise @1ncendiary_Rounds, I do believe you hit the nail pretty much dead on.

    The Ost may be just another faction in this game same USF, brits and all the others.
    And personally I guess I am biased towards the Ost, since it's my main by far.
    But as I've stated numerous times before, I certainly don't wont to simply stomp my opponent due to balancing. I play the game because it's fun and that would simply suck all the joy out of it.

    But with that being said...

    The Ost vs USF line-up is perhaps the one where smoke on RM become the most troublesome.
    Ost is, as @1ncendiary_Rounds pointed out, by and large a reactionary army. It's starting strength is, up to and including early midgame, generally speaking too underwhelming to actively pursue an aggressive approach against an allied opponent of equal prowess. Of course exceptions do exists for exceptional players in the very highest tiers of play, but for the rest of us average players that's the sad truth.

    Now, being a reactionary force means two things;

    First, it means that Intel on your opponents it very important, since you can't react to what you don't know about.

    Second, it means that you have very, if not extremely specialized units, designed to counter very specific circumstances, very effectively.
    Case in point, the Hmg42.
    It's an mg tailormade to deny area to your opponent via high suppression and large firing arc.
    With it, the Ost can(reasonably well) defend an area against a slightly(obviously not hugely,that would be broken af) superior force, thus allowing the Ost to do what it does best; counter-attack.

    This is COMPLETELY negated against the USF because of RM smoke! Even a below average USF player can win an early'ish engagement against a superior dug in Ost opponent, because all it takes are a smoke or two from your STARTING infantry squad, and the entire Ost line needs to reposition. This more often than not results in an all-out collapse and retreat, because the overwhelming firepower of RM would otherwise threaten to wipe several squads. HMG42's takes time to setup again and grens are abysmal on the move.

    For those of you who made it through this wall of text;

    TL;DR:

    Smoke on RM against Ost simply negates the very thing it's supposed to do best, and tilts almost every early-early/midgame engagement in the USF favor.
    USF has smoke on the mortar which available early on as well.

    Why the hell can't they just use that instead like every other faction?!(Bar the Brits, but they are "spee-zi-all" in many ways, axis or allied...
    Wasent that more or less the whole point of the USF getting that damn mortar to begin with? To "divisify" their opening build instead of just relying on RM for everything? And now that USF has gotten the mortar;
    "Well screw that shit!! We're keeping it AND the smoke on RM, because it's just a hoot turning every single battleground into a marijuana dispensary with all that smoke! Oh, and fuck you, that's why.!!"

    I do think USF mortar needs more work as it was actually first used as a anti garrison and I don't know why they made it into a smoke dispenser.
    Saying that USF have to spend a hefty price for the grenade package and it delays tech by 25 fuel which is no small cost. That means delayed light vehicle, healing, etc. I've already stated in other posts replaying smoke grenades covering a smaller point than smoke barrage, etc. Isn't it necessary for OST to have a weaker early to mid game to compensate for their more powerful late game?

  • #86
    3 years ago
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented
    If the reason for rifles having smoke is bleed why not give them the light smoke grenade currently on commandos, they get the ability to increase their durability without negating the heart of an entire faction for a small sidegrade and a token munitions cost (less than a DBP molitov) they can still use their arsenal of smoke at their disposal and pretend WFA is about combined arms and maybe MAYBE build more than just rifles and jacksons for a game, or if we are lucky...maybe 2
  • #87
    3 years ago
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    @ClassyDavid said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    @ClassyDavid said:

    When I play OST I'm more fearful of a USF player who splits up his army and strikes multiple directions with smoke allowing him to move up and engage. Sadly that's a rare USF player to find as that's taxing on one's micro to do such a attack.

    This is EXACTLY how USF players should play. By splitting up and not letting all of the units get suppressed if they encounter an mg. Like you said most USF don't play like you because they can simply get away with brute force by 1) smoking the mg after getting suppressed and then spreading out a bit or 2) kill the mg gunner with their bar blob so fast the gunner didn't even know what happened. You can't expect another squad to cover the FRONT of the mg at ALL times. Usually if you're thin on infantry you use them to cover the mg flanks, not the front where the mg is pointed at. Yes, if the mg gets flanked, it's Ostheer's fault, but getting the mg killed from a brute force frontal attack, from getting the gunner killed is one of the biggest problems Ostheer faces in the early and mid game.

    Yes at times a HMG42 isn't able to engage a blob and suppress quick enough before suppressing them but that is a rare occurrence and more due to the MG positioning. Use yellow cover if green cover isn't available to make it where the crew men are in front as a HMG will win every time if the gunner is one in the back. If they do blob and get suppress then smoke then it is up to the OST player to re set up and allow other forces to stay engaged due to smoke grenades smaller cone compared to a smoke barrage. Like I said in the replay that USF wouldn't have been able to blob if On Me! wasn't the way it is in live. I let my HMG suppress him then either moved up my other squads to keep them suppressed or have another MG placed further back.

    I find it amusing people argue USF takes no skill to micro yet defending a position, moving back a mg, and moving up Grens is the epitome of skill? Not saying OST doesn't need a good amount of micro against a good USF player it's just absurd to read. Both factions require a good amount of micro to function well with attacking as USF and defending as OST.

    Of course every faction requires skill but some factions require MORE skill than others. When you're playing a reactive faction like Ost vs a proactive faction like USF, USF has the upper hand in ease of micro. Spreading out your troops is far easier to do than reacting to a player that spreads out his troops. Blobbing and throwing smoke is far easier than backpedaling grens and mgs AND finding decent cover to fall back on AND keeping track of potential flanking squads that the mg may not suppress in time.

    That's more due to player skill as some are better at defending than attacking or vice versa. Blobbing and throwing smoke is easier but then they aren't spreading out their squads. Yes you have to deal with the occasional flanking squads but that is why you have support troops in form of Grens and PGs to deal with such threats.

    If you have a MG alone and a Rifle squad moves up and grenades, flanks it, etc. why the hell would you leave a lone MG squad in the first place?

    Who said anything about leaving mgs on their own? If the USF player was able to flank it without smoke or gettting suppressed, then it means that the USF player already had intel on the mg position or the Ost player failed to position it properly to anticipate the direction of the attack. Full marks to the USF player here.

    That was more due to some players complaining their lone MG was smoked and grenade.

    With the rework of On Me! USF blobs have lost their power.

    There's a replay I believe Dane casted where a USF player blobbed his infantry up and was hard to keep down simply due to On Me! I used layered MGs and kept my forces spread out to keep him suppressed and the only reason it didn't work as well was due to On Me! If he tried it on DBP he would've lost far sooner simple as that.

    Or the reason that you succeeded is the fact that you're top ten in both USF and OST and have intricate knowledge of both factions. 99.99% of players are inferior to you. And you just said that the USF blobbed up his infantry. What if he spread out his infantry? That would be tough to defend even for a top ten Ost player like you.

    Thing is if you base balance around the majority than it skewers balance at the top level. Starcraft has always balanced around the competitive scene and it's balance is great (though yes having three factions only is easier to balance around then five and they're are very different RTS games)

    Yes as it should be. OST shouldn't be too easy to defend and having to defend a assault like that is meant to test both players. Is isn't easy to engage a large assault with a spread out force as that is micro heavy and why it isn't seen often.
    Honestly even a lower skilled player would've beat that USF player if that On Me! wasn't such a pain in the arse.

    The mg failing to suppress a blob quick enough is a very common occurrence. If it was a rare malfunction, USF players would not be known for their infamous blob tactics. They'd be afraid to get their blob suppressed. But USF players know that their rifle blob can easily kill the gunner faster than the mg can suppress. This is why its so easy to attack Ostheer due to their reliance on support weapons. I'm mainly an Ostheer player in the top 150 and in my experience the mg crew are behind the gunner 80% of the time if you set it up in the open. Setting up mgs in yellow cover is asking for it to be wiped by a grenade or mortar. And while your point about some players being better at attack while others defend better may be true, it's still easier to attack. Just think about how many clicks you need to micro an mg vs # of clicks for riflemen. Mgs are much more microintensive. I agree with the game being optimized for top players. Though I'm obviously not the best, I still consider myself a top Ostheer player with my other factions between rank 150-250. however, only with Ost do I still struggle against opponents 100 ranks below me due to the mg not doing it's job half the time.

  • #88
    3 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited December 2017
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    @ClassyDavid said:

    For the first part that is simply untrue. Grens still do very well with single BAR Rifles even with them both being veterancy 3. Only when duel BARs are equipped (Which only equal a LMG42 at max sight range for both squads) do Rifles start to easily handle Grens. Not to mention if a Rifle squad even with duel BARs and vet 3 (same with Grens) they'll win which Rifles are suppose to very well due given the design of USF but wounded and losing at least two models. Grens are seemingly underestimated when playing against USF apparently as they can bleed USF quite well if used correctly due to Rifles reinforcement cost and purpose of being the mainstay of the faction compared to OST who rely on support weapons. Rifles NEED smoke grenades to prevent bleed USF suffers from so much. It allow USF to engage a assault from multiple angles to gain that close range advantage.

    Pay attention to the keywords: AT MAX RANGE. Last time I checked, Ostheer doesn't have double the manpower rate of USF, hence Ost cannot afford to pair every gren with an mg. Any USF player will know to close in on the grens. And a massive advantage of the bar is the decent dps it does on the move, something the lmg42 lacks. The primary objective of smoke is to negate the usefulness of mgs. It has nothing to do with reducing the bleed that you claim that grens inflict on riflemen. In fact in most cases, where grens are without support, the riflemen inflict a lot of bleed on grens. Stock riflemen have TWICE the dps of stock grens at point blank. So you can say that mgs exist to reduce the amount of bleed that rifles inflict on grens.

    The issue of smoke for USF is when it comes and how it's delivered. USF mortar can't be everywhere at any time. (Not including the fact smoke barrage bugs out so damn much which is why I forgo it so often) The USF mortar also sets back USF early game which is a risky thing due to how powerful OST late game is. Slowing down USF early map control is critical decision and so is the grenade package which costs 25(!) fuel to unlock further slowing down USF tech. This includes how much USF spends in munitions if they keep using smoke grenades and other abilities which starts to add up startling quickly. Every smoke they use is another 15 munitions which can be negated through pulling back and having secondary defenses.

    And same goes for mgs. Ostheer's mgs can't be everywhere at any time to support grens. You can't win every engagement. Imagine if USF can consistantly win every engagement vs Ost in the early game. How will Ost's map control look like? Ost will have zero map control due to being completely pushed off the field. USF will have all the resources it could dream of and have more than enough munis to spam smoke nades. The more smoke you throw leads to more map control and resources which in turn allows you to afford to keep on throwing that dirt cheap smoke.

    And you mention that Ost's late game is very powerful?! You're a 1v1 player, you should realize that Tier 4 is non-existant in 1v1. :D Yes a few docs have a Tiger, but it is the worst heavy tank call-in in the game. It is neither a good damage sponge like the IS2 nor is it the accurate tank sniper squad wiping machine that is the pershing. That is why the Tiger is actually receiving a small buff in the patch. Though the panther has received a small buff, Tier 4 is still easily overshadowed by the massive Jackson buff. I agree the USF has the worst late game. But Ost is almost tied with USF for having a pathetic late game in 1v1. It only has a late game in teamgames.

    USF other forms of smoke such as Sherman's comes late and at a hefty 30 munitions, Scott is also late and shares it smoke barrage cool down with its normal barrage which is quite important, Pack howitzer WP isn't considered a smoke barrage due to hurting friendly troops as well, LT is locked via tech so it's up to the player to go CPT or LT.

    The only free smoke USF has is the mortar and Scotts. Everything else comes at a cost and the USF player goes for BARs then they'll have no munitions for grenades and vice versa unless USF is prevented from gaining munition points.

    And the sources of smoke for the other factions are only one: the mortar. And OKW never had smoke until this patch.

  • #89
    3 years ago
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    A point just as important is that Relic has still not fixed the problem that they claimed to have fixed which is the mg gunner always gets killed first. 80% of the time when I setup an mg42 in the open, the gunner is at the front. I certainly see the crew members occasionally at the front, I'm just not sure why this is so unreliable. If this is such a hassle to fix, perhaps it would be easier to give the mg42 a +5 vision at vet 2. This would allow the mg to have a crucial extra second to start firing to increase the chance of suppressing a blob on time before the gunner dies.

    Also, I find extremely annoying the fact that if there are two targets in the firing arc and you manage to suppress one squad while the other is trying to get past the cone,and you try to click on the other squad but misclick due to the fact that the squad was moving, the mg packs up. I'm sure everyone has had this infuriating experience and I'd say a good way to change it is to allow a secondary method of target selection for mgs. Borrow the directional tulip shooting mechanic from the Firefly. This will no longer require you to click on a moving squad.

  • #90
    3 years ago
    Cpt. BlitzCpt. Blitz Posts: 729
    edited December 2017
    Riflemen (Live version)

    @Lazarus said:
    > @Cpt. Blitz said:
    >
    > The Poll shows that the majority agree.

    It also shows the majority are wrong. Still waiting for that magical faction that has more or quicker smoke than T0 no fuel. Thats all it takes for me to say you're right. A single solitary fact.

    Let me spell it out for you. Riflemen as a unit need their smoke the least out of anything ever in the existence of CoH, including CoH1. Having a horde of people who like easy blobs voting doesnt change that.

    The majority will rule, sorry.

    Enjoy the smoke from Riflemen for years to come Ol' chap.

    They have it for a reason. USF was built around smoke, their whole faction, so no matter what scenario, you'll almost always have a unit to use smoke to escape/assault/flank the more powerful/HP Heavy axis units. So of course their main unit "Versatility and Individual Firepower", will have smoke.

    Keep smoke on Riflemen, you had it right the first time on this one Relic. Let's discuss more important things like Late game balance, and differences in 1v1-4v4 games.

  • #91
    3 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented
    @Cpt. Blitz

    "The majority will rule, sorry."

    "Enjoy the smoke on riflemen for years to come, Ol' chap."

    "Lets discuss other things."(snip)

    Truly spoken like someone who's conceded, because he ran out of strawman arguments and weak points.
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