DBP Balance Feedback

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  • #513
    2 years ago
    WhamykablamyWhamykabl… Posts: 9
    edited November 2017

    @Schwere_Panzer said:
    Relic either seems to be misunderstanding the current state of the game (mistaking superior WM/OKW player skills as evidence of the factions' OPness) or just dislikes Axis factions and wants to make a mockery out of them.

    Didn't bother proofreading, beware. Not entirely serious either.

    A bit off topic, but it is kind of funny to see a post like that being someone who's played this game since beta.
    Back then, if memory serves, Soviets had it real great. T-70 dealt no damage, IS-2 had such bad stats it would lose to a P4 frontally, SU-85 fired fast sure, but had little penetration, meaning most shots bounced, SU-76 dealt as much damage as a peashooter, and somehow didn't get buffs for years.

    It was such a hilarious contrast playing the campaign first(which is a whole nother topic) and then jumping into multiplayer. Suddenly most units sucked and you just got steamrolled by the ubermensch with their immortal MLG tanks.

    There was clowncar/sniper meta I remember, since everything else was fairly ineffective, quickly removed, and fair enough, it was pretty cheesy.
    Guards were popular then too, used to stun vehicles instead of just slowing them down, for which Wehr had not only Blitz(which costed less than the snare) but also doctrinal smoke(also cheaper), overnerfed to the point where it did nothing at all, just a "throw away 60 munis" button. Buffed since then though. But it still took a great deal of skill to speed up your tank, even with a broken engine, with the press of a button.

    Oh and then OKW got released, with pSchREK_N0Sc0p3_Volk blobs and a bloody game ending TD that could shoot through terrain, Carl, with longest range in the game to top it off. Not to mention their arty, which certainly required(and still does!) superior player skills. You need to be a savant to use that one, it has a line you need to aim and all, and you'd need to figure out if you wanted to wipe 3 squads in one go somehow, or be satisfied with just 2. If you were really lazy you could just try to snipe one, too. Kubels that could shut the opponent down right from the get go were great too, when they used to suppress. Oh and Luchs. That took skill to use too.

    And the fact that Allied players have had notably lower % win rates is just a coincidence I'm sure. Or they were just bad at the game, I mean, it's Germans they had to play against, historical accuracy and all.

    And it's just a coincidence that I somehow ended up getting into top 10 a couple times after switching to Axis.

    But all that being said, I did feel like Axis was on the receiving end around the time Brits got released, so I'm not that biased, just felt like reminiscing for a bit.

  • #515
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited November 2017
    @thedarkarmadillo I'm all with new bonuses for eastern front teching. Just don't know if mainline buffs are the way to go. But something more than a redecorated base sector for sure.

    Afterthought: What about cost decreases littered throughout Battle phases and Tier buildings? This is a SMALL step, not saying more couldn't be done. But like a 25% decrease on munitions costs for the abilities of different units? Things like medkits, rifle-nades, TWP, incin. ap rounds, mollys, maxims sustained fire, zis barrage (after reverting the cost change they added) would get cheaper as you went through later game tech. Like BP2 for wher makes rifle-nade and ap rounds cheaper or something.
  • #516
    2 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    @SkysTheLimit

    Hmm, that's not a bad suggestion. Could be quite interesting to explore further idd.

    Though if the boni becomes too great, I fear it would be too powerful. So careful thought/testing would have to be done obviously.
  • #517
    2 years ago

    I think the new Jackson is good. While not dealing massive with damage, and get higher cost it makes up for it with its great mobility now. It works great to flank with and take a bit more of a punch. While costing 140 fuel u can't really spam them either. If you have 3 and do a flank, it hurts pretty hard to loos 2 of them, but at least it could be worth it now. Good change.

  • #518
    2 years ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 468
    edited December 2017

    Ostruppen
    Can now upgrade to LMG42’s when Battle Phase 3 is researched (All variants)

    Balance patch. "Balance patch"..........................Who said ostruppen were unbalanced?!
    I'll keep this simple and short. Ostruppen do not need any modifications. The units are supposed to be fodder. The doctrine, needs some changes, but not the unit itself. In our history, have we ever had a heated debate where we're flipping tables screaming at each other at how ostruppen need a buff? No......No we haven't.
    Leave the units stats alone, just make the rest of the doctrine more flexible/useful.

    Honestly, it feels like a holiday mod buff...like an event, not a serious update.

    :star: "This December! All ostruppen units with receive a holiday buff! This month only! Get in on the action!" :star:
    (Premium members only, also available on steam!)

  • #519
    2 years ago
    @SkysTheLimit i made a thread a ways back about something like that, and the idea for small con buffs was based around live cons (like say, t3 would improve their base RA from 1.07 to a flat 1, and t4 would let give a small supression resistance or speed increase to oorah, stuff like that)
    As making them a little better (not massivly) as the game goes on makes them slightly more attractive to replace/risk (like if t4 reduced their price/reinforcment cost you could use conscripts to help stem bleed...which is supposed to be their role...)

    For ost i like where you are going, id like to see a role reinforcment for pgrens in there somewhere (slight buff when near armour to their STGs?) But nonetheless i really think reinforcing the Battle Phase system is the key to OST, making bp3 more attractive would in part make t4 more attractive as well, vs paying for a tech just so you can pay more later for some units
  • #520
    2 years ago

    Grenadiers and tier 4 are simply just not worth building .

  • #522
    2 years ago
    Schwere_PanzerSchwere_P… Berlin, GermanyPosts: 23

    Well said. What we need is not some map revamp but a revamp of the Axis forces.

  • #523
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited November 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo I remember that thread actually, and I liked your ideas for cons. However now that they've been completely reworked to compete in the post WFA era, I feel like that might push them over the top at this point.

    I think we had talked about an idea that is similarly present in the EFA mod for coh1, where cons can get upgraded to have 2 more models but still with 6 rifles to share between the 8 infantrymen. When the notion of cons getting their baseline stats reworked was a distant dream, I was all for twists like that.

  • #524
    2 years ago
    @SkysTheLimit i agree, would be too much with them actually not trash anymore, but i still long for them to be properly expendable and replaceablein the late game (well, relative to other factions mainline)... Even if rapid conscription was a passive that reduced build speed/build cost...after all they ARE just cons... A lad can dream...

    Iirc the argument against larger than 6 man squads was pathing related(?) But id be down for that none the less!
  • #525
    2 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited November 2017

    I completely agree with Dane about how the panther's buffs are completely overshadowed by the Jackson's buff. It's quite silly. Everytime allies get a buff, it's a significant one and Axis (especially Ostheer) have been getting fake buffs (or bug fixes that Relic calls a buff) for years. It's an ongoing mantra. Finally, Ostheer is getting some REAL buffs to units like the Ostwind and smaller but still impactful buffs to the p4 and panther but then the Jackson tells all of them to stfu because it just received the largest buff of all of them. A whopping 25% more health. Did p4 get 25% more pen? Did panther get 25% higher RoF? So much for Ostheer buffs.

    Also agree that other than volk, kubel and luchs, the rest of OKW is a bit weak. Especially doctrinal infantry. Jaegers are an abomination. Falls are overpriced but have finally received a bit of a buff. Fusiliers are getting overnerfed in this patch. Big accuracy nerf and pop cap should be 7 not 8. They are a hair better than riflemen and certainly not better than 5man IS.

  • #526
    2 years ago
    oRi0noRi0n Posts: 63

    Unfortunately, I will probably not have time to test 1.6 this weekend (I've been traveling for work this week and am behind on many things at home). That said, I'm concerned that the vet requirement reduction for the OKW AAHT (something I've been saying needed a buff or cost reduction) may not be enough.

    Based on the thread thedarkness posted a few days ago, he only managed to hit vet 3 with one that survived the entire game and reached 886% efficiency (obviously quite difficult not so much due to offensive deficiencies, but because the thing is just so vulnerable to any form of anti-tank fire). It seems to me that should have been a vet 5 achievement. Comparing the new requirements to the old ones, if he did not reach vet 4 before, he would not reach vet 5 now.

    It may be that hitting the lower vets earlier will boost its combat ability enough to reach vet 5 now in that amount of time, but I'd like to see some feedback from some of you who are able to test it.

    Totally unrelated: we get a list of units the new Opel Blitz Reinforce Truck can carry in the Feuersturm Doctrine revamp, but which if any (or all) of these units are capable of FIRING from the truck? I don't see that specified.

  • #528
    2 years ago
    > @oRi0n said:
    >
    > Based on the thread thedarkness posted a few days ago
    >thedarkness

    Why you gotta do me like that :'(
  • #529
    2 years ago
    sugmarsugmar Posts: 109

    OKW needs to be reinstalled units and features:

    • Folksgrenadery - should not be as cheap assault troops. They are, in fact, linear infantry. Therefore, instead of the STG-44 should be give 1 mg-42.as the heavy weapons: - may be lost. - Don't shoot on the move. This will force more attentive to these orders, the total DPS will be saved. Panzerfaust needs to be replaced by a grenade with a smaller radius alternatively, the engineers Panzerschreck.
    • Themselves storm troopers will increase the squad to 5 people will move into the building mechanized headquarters.as before, they are powerful assault troops - but in its place. Give them the opportunity to throw a smoke grenade + to set the explosives (demolitions).
    • Remove Wolframin-40 and anti-aircraft gun flak -they are now the modernization of armored personnel carriers. The APC is based in the medical staff placed inside and allows the infantry to fire from your weapon on the go.Armored vehicles will give new tactical flexibility of the squad of infantry OKW: - Numerous upgrades: - Wolframin-40/ owl/Antiaircraft gun-37 mm/ renovation and a medical armoured personnel carrier.
    • Medical staff similar to British improvement 1) support the infantry - allows you to build tank Beam 2) light anti-tank support - allows you to build armored Puma
    • Тank, Panzer 4 and Jagdpanzer 4 to move in the mechanized building of the headquarters. And in T3, the RCC will remain available for the construction of the Panther, king tiger, chief of the soldiers.
    • Tank, Panzer 4 and Jagdpanzer 4 to move in the mechanized building of the headquarters. And in T3, the RCC will remain available for the construction of the Panther, king tiger, chief of the soldiers.

    With this approach, the OKW there is some serious variability,and too strong squads balanced for the time of appearance on the battlefield.
    Early game: Falschlunger with the support jeeps / cannons hold territory. In T1 they can flexibly move to the APC and, if necessary: 1) to Improve the APC in any modification. 2) Select the build a tank Luchs 3) Select the construction of the Armored Puma.

    In the middle game Tanks with Panzer 4 + engineers can receive early and fight with similar - which increases their effectiveness at this stage. Or OKW could go to heavy machinery due to the bonus provided medetsinskim staff.

    You may want to consider the possibility of building a Tiger out of the limit on heavy equipment? (still a separate limit for him in the army - 1)

  • #530
    2 years ago

    Cant believe the changes in 1.6. Finally RIP Axis.

    If this patch goes live, im going to deinstall COH 2.

  • #531
    2 years ago
    ReichsgardeReichsgar… Bad Tolz, Bayern, GermanyPosts: 121

    This once again proves that Relic does not listen to anything from the Axis side. Have you changed the Wehrmacht Panzer IV Pop Cost error? Please fix ASAP.

    • Remove the bonuses from Raketenwerfer???!!!! My God... This already-nerfed-to-bits-easily-wipable AT gun is now even more useless. Requiescat in Pace Raketenwerfer 43. Again, Relic commits the same mistake of making OKW veterancy 5 system a mediocre and completely pointless system. Why even have 5 veterancy levels? Why do you advertise OKW as an elite faction as in the trailer?

    • Let's look at the MG34 changes closely because it makes little logical sense. You found that MG34 struggled at achieving veterancy. So you increased the damage from 2 to 3. Good. But practically everything has been nerfed. Cost has increased, pop cost has increased, vet 4 and 5 bonuses have become mediocre. MG34s do not need a nerf.

    • Reduced the veterancy requirements for SdKfz 251... hmm... not bad but not good enough to justify using this super fragile vehicle that gets dominated by every other Allied vehicle.

    • King Tiger has been nerfed once again ... Pop cap increased from 21 to 23, ruining the army mix and reducing flexibility for OKW meta game. Made a pure mockery out of King Tiger's highly accurate gun by bombing its accuracy. Wipes out infantry squads and AT guns too well, you say? That's the whole point! King Tiger is the ultimate reward for the OKW player for having survived that long. Can't you see this?!

    And in the meantime, USF, UKF and Soviets get a ton of buffs e.g. Universal Carriers getting buffed, AEC getting Treadshot at Vet 0 (I am literally speechless here), Captain AND Major getting smoke grenades...

    I agree with Hesky85. As much as I hate to say this, Relic seems quite bent on creating an Allies/Soviets-biased game here.

  • #532
    2 years ago

    Shocked at 1.6 update,

    How they can nerf the rakenten is beyond insane.

    Considering in 90% of games allies build SU85 and M36 and render the King Tiger helpless and taking into account its ultra slow speed . Taking away its reliable AI for the sheer cost of this unit it will not be worth building any more.

    Unbelievable.

  • #533
    2 years ago
    GlitshyGlitshy Posts: 22
    edited December 2017

    @Kyle_RE said:
    Demo Charge
    We are removing the defuse option on demo charges to prevent engineers from automatically attempting to defuse the charge, leaving them extremely vulnerable to detonation.

    Detection radius increased from 7 to 13
    Can no longer be defused

    Or maybe make it so that the demo charge can't be detonated when detected? Remove detection from every unit and make it detectable only by minesweepers. When it is detected by a minesweeper, it can't be detonated.

  • #534
    2 years ago
    sugmarsugmar Posts: 109

    OKW needs to rebalance and the rise of possibilities of use of their units: especially light vehicles. Therefore, it is advisable to postpone the construction of tank armored car Lynx and Cougars in the medical staff. For OKW player chooses what he needs - between anti-personnel or anti-tank vehicle.
    I do not think that OKW actually need to play defensively. This strategic style of the Wehrmacht. OKW is a mobile, mechanized army. Part of the tiger - to give the chance to build it together with the Sturm tiger or YAG-tiger.

    And game through throwing the dice to hit with artillery - you need to stop. Or seriously reduce the characteristics of fire in fog of war or the limit for artillery units.
    In the end - where did the idea of dividing the British fortifications on the lungs and upgraded?

  • #535
    2 years ago
    DanielM36DanielM36 Posts: 12
    edited December 2017

    I can not understand Relic's willingness to destroy the unique system of veterancy system for the OKW. It was to be one of OKW's advantages in return for some disadvantages.

    The KT nerf will make it useless to help against blobs or infantary in general. There is no point for the existence of the KT anymore. If it is to be only AT function i am better of with jag.

    These OKW changes are too many and too severe to be done in this way.

  • #537
    2 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited December 2017

    I'm starting to feel like OKW's 5 veterancy level system is also another fake advantage of OKW. The vet 4 and 5 bonuses of many units are being made increasingly worthless or insignificant.

    Someone pointed out a good idea is that OKW vet should be 1,3,5 are vet bonuses and 2,4 are abilities.

  • #538
    2 years ago
    I think an interesting way to approach okw vet would be vet 5= vet 3 of other factions in total but vets 2 and 4 acting as ".5" of a vet: where other factions get say 20% accuracy at vet 2, okw would get +10% at vet 2 and the other +10% at vet 3 (so at their half way mark both units are getting the same buffs, but okw started benefiting a bit sooner) this would grant a smoother and more consistent vet experience for OKW units and the feeling of them steadily improving, maybe this in combination of abilities at 2 and 4 just to feel more value out of the vet.

    The end vets would be just as balanced and as attainable as any other faction (vs almost never getting the coveted vet 5 in units like the kuble, flak track, kt, sturmtiger, sturms ect)

    Active abilities ans toggles also increase the skill cap instead of easy mode passives that simply make the units easier to use compared to their counterparts. I would like to see more abilities like king tiger spearhead mode that offer advantages with trade offs to promote a "stance" change when appropriate but leaving an exploitable weakness for counterplay.
  • #539
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,093
    edited December 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Im sad to see the raks good vet disappear but the cheese tactic of stealth hunting->retreat still there (if not reinforced by the nerfs)

    When trying to increase strategic diversity, removing the option to use vet'd Raketens as actual AT guns so the only thing you have left is stealth volley creep cheese is confusing to me as well. I think the idea might be to inspire more people to build JagdPanzers?

    Also yes - Dark and I have been saying for... at least a year now vets 2/4 should be abilities because it puts a resource strain on OKW, it requires extra micro, but it will also give them an edge if you deploy them correctly.

  • #540
    2 years ago
    Id rather camo function like a hulldown esq thing where they cant move but increases range and reduces damage taken and improves their aimtime and what not, make them defensive like they should be instead of cheesy with a lack of alternative...
  • #541
    2 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    edited December 2017
    It may just be me, but am I truly the only one who thinks that one of the ABSOLUTE necessities of the OKW is the vet 5 boni?!
    The entire faction was built around keeping your shit alive, because it was very good and cost a truckload...

    Now...

    Well, now we have a vet 4-5 system that doesn't matter in the slightest, because all their boni for keeping their units alive has been nerfed to oblivion.

    So basically, OKW vet 5 equals vet 3.(give or take an inch)

    How is this anything but a straight up, in your face, balls-licking nerf?!

    I DON'T like the OKW to get abilities at vet 2/4, I don't like them to be the equivalent of vet 3 at vet 5 and I sure as hell don't like them getting reduce to a simple Ost v2..!


    What I'd like(never, ever gonna happen, but a guy can have his dreams if nothing else) is for every single, repeat.. EVERY SINGLE OKW unit to take a price hop, while increasing their effectiveness...

    600MP for an ober-squad?! Aight, since I know they will be performing as one!!

    Instead we get watered down whiskey sour, when we asked for a bourbon on the rocks...

    Would be hell to balance, but proper fun to play with AND against!!
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