DBP Balance Feedback

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Comments

  • #542
    2 years ago

    King Tiger
    Given the high lethality of the KT's main gun, we found that the squad wiping capabilities of this unit made it generally over perfrom vs late-game infantry and AT guns.

    To compensate for this...We're lowering it's potential. That's right, this ULTRA late-game unit is being nerfed...because **** you, standard troops and AT guns, should NOT have any trouble whatsoever against a player who puts all his resources into this expensive unit.

  • #543
    2 years ago
    @Baálthazor i too preferred the initial design of the okw, powerful bonuses, powerful but expensive armour ect but it was all lost because of the "well the p4 should be indestructable and shoot rockets when it blitzs because its "real cost" is 300 fuel" shit that filled the forum and the "reduced income" was interperated as "increased value per unit" incomeand everything went to shit. I LOVED the flexibility of the repair truck, the ferocity of obers, the terror of the KT. alot was poorly designed for counterplay granted (volks, cheaper than cons, but better than grens in every way! Also AT! KT stronk in front and less than 50% chance to pen its rear!) Their vision was lost to "shiney and OP and the misinterpreting community fucking with the balance of things.we gotta play with the cards we have nowand i would personallt rather the vet 5 system being something unique but balanced than unique and op or the sad mix of nerfed to shit, unobtainable and uninspired (the new rak has 12% speed for a vet 4 and 10% reload for vet 5, the flak HT while lowered, its still impossibly difficult to earn its incredibly underwhelming vet)

    Id like okw to be able to do incredible things if the player is capable of doing them- ober/fall poison smoke aint great for covering an advance but can be great for nuking attack moves when combined with a bundled nade instead we have an omw designed around being capable of winning games because they know where the attack move and retreat buttons are, or because they can creep past defensive lines under camo and instagib support units or decap cutoffs while invisible which is just cheesy (in team games ive seen triple rak creep to increase the odds of nuking Tds in enemy territory before a volks blob and armour crash in)
  • #544
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited December 2017

    @eonfigure said:
    To compensate for this...We're lowering it's potential. That's right, this ULTRA late-game unit is being nerfed...because **** you, standard troops and AT guns, should NOT have any trouble whatsoever against a player who puts all his resources into this expensive unit.

    The live KT is the one that has no trouble with AT guns and infantry. Now it won't have no trouble, but it won't be as dominant. It's amazing to me how many knee-jerk reactions people have to changes like this. Now it has the same scatter as IS2, while still dealing more damage if it connects. It's not going to unusable for crying out loud.

  • #546
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    @Baálthazor said:
    It may just be me, but am I truly the only one who thinks that one of the ABSOLUTE necessities of the OKW is the vet 5 boni?!
    The entire faction was built around keeping your shit alive, because it was very good and cost a truckload...

    Now...

    Well, now we have a vet 4-5 system that doesn't matter in the slightest, because all their boni for keeping their units alive has been nerfed to oblivion.

    So basically, OKW vet 5 equals vet 3.(give or take an inch)

    How is this anything but a straight up, in your face, balls-licking nerf?!

    I DON'T like the OKW to get abilities at vet 2/4, I don't like them to be the equivalent of vet 3 at vet 5 and I sure as hell don't like them getting reduce to a simple Ost v2..!


    What I'd like(never, ever gonna happen, but a guy can have his dreams if nothing else) is for every single, repeat.. EVERY SINGLE OKW unit to take a price hop, while increasing their effectiveness...

    600MP for an ober-squad?! Aight, since I know they will be performing as one!!

    Instead we get watered down whiskey sour, when we asked for a bourbon on the rocks...

    Would be hell to balance, but proper fun to play with AND against!!

    That is the issue i have with Relic handling of Coh2!

    Vet 5 is the play for OKW, just as the late game Wehr faction!

    Instead Relic just went ahead and drop all this asymmetrical for god know's reasoning..

  • #547
    2 years ago
    vsrvsr Posts: 93

    @thedarkarmadillo said:

    Id like okw to be able to do incredible things if the player is capable of doing them- ober/fall poison smoke aint great for covering an advance but can be great for nuking attack moves when combined with a bundled nade instead we have an omw designed around being capable of winning games because they know where the attack move and retreat buttons are, or because they can creep past defensive lines under camo and instagib support units or decap cutoffs while invisible which is just cheesy (in team games ive seen triple rak creep to increase the odds of nuking Tds in enemy territory before a volks blob and armour crash in)

    Exactly! So far in this game axis has always gotten away from stressful unit ** **management , having the superior units in hand, both OKW and wehrm have managed to come back from almost all their in-game bad micros and poor strategy skills. It was always the allies who paid the most for one single mistake, so the changes here in this balance patch looks promising and promotes the need for better unit management. I believe that no matter what faction you play if your unit management is good or better than your opponent, then you have a very solid chance of a win.

  • #549
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,674

    @mrgame2 said:

    That is the issue i have with Relic handling of Coh2!

    Vet 5 is the play for OKW, just as the late game Wehr faction!

    Instead Relic just went ahead and drop all this asymmetrical for god know's reasoning..

    Its not relic that does it, its the community modders team.
    Relic just evaluates what they did and either allows or disallows it.

  • #550
    2 years ago
    JubeyJubey Posts: 9

    After a lot of testing with the DBP change, I really think that the armor of the Elephant/ISU and and more particularly the Jagdtiger should be nerfed a little.

    A tank with such amount of damage, penetration and range should be a bit more glass canon and other tank destroyer should be able to penetrate them a bit more reliably from the front armor.

    On the majority of teamgame map these tank can't be flanked effectively, and at high level in teamgame they are to well protected by AT-gun and other tank.

    The big amount of HP of the Jagdtiger and Elephant allow to much time to their supporting tank and AT-gun to get rid off any enemy medium tank who have successfully flank the Jagdtiger/Elephant.

    Fun fact, if you add up the range of the Jagdtiger and the range of a AT-gun, you obtain the exact same range of the max range of the Katyusha, so if you want to get rid off the AT-gun who cover a Jagdtiger you have to be in range of fire of the Jagdtiger.

    For those who only play axis in teamgame and are used to use Elephant and Jagdtier, to give you an idea these tank are at the same cancer level in term of frustration and anti-fun than to fight against mortar pit spam.

  • #552
    2 years ago
    JubeyJubey Posts: 9

    Like I said previously, even if you managed to go on their rear with a couple of medium, the amount of HP of the Jagdtiger/Elephant allow to much time to their suporting AT-gun/tank to get rid of the medium tank before they could destroy the Jagdtiger/Elephant.

  • #553
    2 years ago
    Snares and Faust should make engine damage at 50% health left instad of 75%. Especially German tanks like Panthers are unable to play with that high risk of immobility. Unlike Comet etc. they can't drive as fast or faster than infanty can run.

    I am still for making Panther more expensive and give it 60 range.
  • #554
    2 years ago
    JubeyJubey Posts: 9
    edited December 2017

    I won't repeat thrice, check my message above I already explaned why your argument "you get behind It, it's dead!" is invalid.

    And yes I totaly realize the cost and timing, that's why I recommend to nerf it a little to adjust its performance to its current price.

    And i'm curious which preparation you mean to deal with a Jagdtiger/Elephant because actually there is no tool in the hand of Soviet and USF to deal with it in 3v3 and 4v4.

    Flanking only work at low rank when they don't cover their Jagdtiger/Elephant with ATgun, mines or other tank.
    And the second option, with tank-destroyer is non viable because you need at least 4 of them (SU85 for example) to have a little hope to destroy a Jagdtiger and 4 SU 85 is actually enormously more expensive than a single Jagdtiger, and extremely hard to micro.

  • #556
    2 years ago

    i hope you are going to look into soviet snipers they are just cant be countered at all with being 2 man

  • #557
    2 years ago
    MirlandMirland SpainPosts: 6
    edited December 2017

    My recommendation about the changes that seem necessary for the werh to enter the game again would be the following:

    1 º Five men per platoon: This I already said in other post but even with the reduction of population that received the survival of the peloton becomes unsustainable in late game, I would obtain an update to obtain the peloton, like the british with 5 models or introduce the model extra when you realize the t2 on main base.

    2º Increase the scope of the mortars with its ability of indirect fire with level 3 of experience: It would only be an increase of sufficient scope for the British mortars, having some possibility if you keep them alive.

    These are the main problems that have the werh, especially observed in 4v4 and 3v3 where the British emplacements can sweep your positions and you can not get left artillery until you have 8 command points or panzerwerfer 42 to t3

    This I say with 2000 hours played to this game where I am in rank 16 in 3v3, please comment that you would like these changes

    PD: Sorry to use a Google translator, my English would be very bad

    I'll edit the post as time goes on, and I'll put something on the Soviets that need to change their way of playing instead of using only criminals many times as the only infantry unit.

    Sorry if something happened I was editing and deleted or something, I'm new in this

  • #558
    2 years ago
    Schwere_PanzerSchwere_P… Berlin, GermanyPosts: 23

    In light of all the Panther-related discussions, I have a few more things to point out with regards to the logic behind the recent changes with respect to the WM/OKW Panther:

    • "Panther getting spammed in team games" is NOT Axis players' fault: Have you ever considered the possibility that the people complaining about so-called Panther spams in team games allowed this to happen? Panther spams are costly and each additional Panther the Axis player built managed to stay in the game long enough due to the skills of the player. If the Allied/Soviet team could not manage to halt this despite their huge arsenal of weapons, then I find no fault in the Panther but in the skills of these whining Allied/Soviet players.

    • Panthers also fight in 1 vs 1 too: Do you know how detrimental it is to have a 2 pop point increase? Even a single point increase can mess up the meta game of the faction since we only have 100 points. You say that these changes will help bring balance in team games but have you considered what this entails for 1 vs 1 matches?

    Overall, the Panther pop cost point increase is ABSOLUTELY unnecessary and uncalled for. Please revert this illogical change or boost the reload speed by more than a meagre 0.5 seconds. I mean seriously?! 0.5 SECONDS? You give this tiny weeny bonus and nerf the hell out of these:

    • Vet 2 Armour Bonus
    • Pop Cost increased by 2
    • Moving scatter increased from 1.7 to 2
    • Moving accuracy decreased from 0.65 to 0.5
    • OKW Panther Vet 4 and 5 bonuses nerfed
    • Combat Blitz ability nerfed

    Can you see the sheer unfairness in this? You give a tiny candy and cut off 2 limbs from the Panther. THIS is why I have serious doubts about the DBP and I implore Relic and anyone involved in the DBP process to see the light of this reasoning.

  • #559
    2 years ago

    @Mr_Smith I really like the idea of adding units that can do ambush, but one low-cost, non doctrinal unit can ruin your innovation.
    (Sdkfz 251/20 Infrared Spotlight)

  • #560
    2 years ago
    I would like to see panthers stationery accuracy go up fairly substantially. Too many times does it miss when not moving, hell even replacing blitz (which has been nerfed to sin over the years BECAUSE of the panther, to something akin to spearhead (maybe stationary range increase +accuracy + a faster ROF) to give the ost a better defensive AT option would be incredible and possibly offset the pop increase?
  • #561
    2 years ago

    @Schwere_Panzer said:

    Can you see the sheer unfairness in this? You give a tiny candy and cut off 2 limbs from the Panther. THIS is why I have serious doubts about the DBP and I implore Relic and anyone involved in the DBP process to see the light of this reasoning.

    And don't forget that massive 25% health buff for Jackson. It's an ongoing mantra especially for Ostheer. Yes, we'll buff a unit then we'll take it all away in some other way.

  • #562
    2 years ago
    ReichsgardeReichsgar… Bad Tolz, Bayern, GermanyPosts: 121

    At this stage, I strongly recommend a postponement of the DBP release and continue refining the game further. There is no need to hastily deploy a patch in which there are still things left grossly unresolved. What's the hurry anyways? I, for one, am willing to wait till March 2018 if a decent patch can "restore balance to the Force".

  • #563
    2 years ago
    @Reichsgarde i feel there is too much good in this patch to further postpone, there IS good in this patch and i think delaying it woukd be detrimental for the playerbase. At the very least a new meta would give a clearer view of what IS wrong in this patch (*cough* shitty useless demos *cough*)
  • #564
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,674

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    @Schwere_Panzer said:

    Can you see the sheer unfairness in this? You give a tiny candy and cut off 2 limbs from the Panther. THIS is why I have serious doubts about the DBP and I implore Relic and anyone involved in the DBP process to see the light of this reasoning.

    And don't forget that massive 25% health buff for Jackson. It's an ongoing mantra especially for Ostheer. Yes, we'll buff a unit then we'll take it all away in some other way.

    Of course, you're going to completely ignore massive 25% damage nerf, right?

    Sorry to disappoint you, but unless you make your very own balance patch and play on it exclusively, there won't be only axis buffs and only allied nerfs - everyone is going to be on the same level.

  • #565
    2 years ago
    > @Katitof said:
    > @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    >
    > @Schwere_Panzer said:
    >
    > Can you see the sheer unfairness in this? You give a tiny candy and cut off 2 limbs from the Panther. THIS is why I have serious doubts about the DBP and I implore Relic and anyone involved in the DBP process to see the light of this reasoning.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > And don't forget that massive 25% health buff for Jackson. It's an ongoing mantra especially for Ostheer. Yes, we'll buff a unit then we'll take it all away in some other way.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Of course, you're going to completely ignore massive 25% damage nerf, right?
    >
    > Sorry to disappoint you, but unless you make your very own balance patch and play on it exclusively, there won't be only axis buffs and only allied nerfs - everyone is going to be on the same level.

    Jackson surviving another shot is far more important than 40 less damage.
  • #566
    2 years ago

    All I'm seeing is an arbitrary bias.

    "Why do i have to deal with strategy? I want my standard units to be less expensive, quicker, and do more damage than your end-game units. I don't want a challenge bro."

    Allied units have always had price and speed in their favor, however, it seems that's wasn't good enough. Give My tank destroyers more penetration, give me a homing demo charge, I mean, "Sticky satchels" And pretend that the cost justifies it damage, When a panzerfaust costs close the same price and does about, oh i dunno, 1/20th the damage! Look at what was done to the Command panther. No indemnity or compensation, just a shut down, furthermore, you have to choose between the KT or a Panther. "yeah because those two units are identical!" And I'm still talking about the live version.

    To top it all off: "Nerf the opposition with the patch!"
    I'm not trying to be negative, it's just that seeing this is very upsetting, I'm also genuinely concerned! Who is at the helm of this "update/patch" ship?
    You thought i was joking with the otruppen comment of mine? Not at all! Is that some kind of bribe????

    "Listen, we're gonna screw your tanks over, but as show of good will, we're gonna give your ostruppen a slight buff :)"

    NOBODY ASKED FOR THAT, WHY ARE YOU FIXING SOMETHING THAT ISN'T BROKEN

    Look at the flat out buffs/upgrades penals got. These units can handle any situation, you dont even need conscripts anymore! The TD buffs! For the patch you want to nerf the KT?! Seriously? Have you forgotten how fast the IS2 heavy tank is? Or the damage both the IS2 and KV2 can dish out? Is the ostruppen suppose to be your dark bribe that silences people while TD's still have +150% penetration! No thank you, you can keep it. I know I'm mixing live and patch, but neither seem to be going in the right direction.

    Below is how the game is suppose to be, at least in my eyes. How i see balance.

    This is how the game is actually "progressing" with patches as time goes on:

    plz stop =_=

  • #568
    2 years ago

    it's strange that they think it's okay to nerf the axis tanks and buff the hell out of the allies in the same patch. These are too heavy changes to be made in this way.

    And god knows when we will have a future patch to clean this mess.

  • #569
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    Panther nerf makes no sense.
    It already has the worse accuracy and reload times and its costly.
    Spamming panthers, maybe only in 4v4 and against lower opponents.

    In 1v1 and 2v2, you dont see Panther deploy as often as P4 or Tiger.
    Because it is too weak against Allies TD. So what Relic approved is to further buff the Jackson, lol!

  • #570
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    @eonfigure said:
    All I'm seeing is an arbitrary bias.

    Below is how the game is suppose to be, at least in my eyes. How i see balance.

    This is how the game is actually "progressing" with patches as time goes on:

    plz stop =_=

    Make sense buddy!

    While i appreciate Relic still looking into this game and Mr Smith time spent.
    Somehow the updates has been rather slip-shot, felt more like a modders delight. No offense to Mr Smith, but sometimes building a game is about making things fun keeping theme consistent, and not taking the easy way around.

    Latest salvo, Relic removed deep snow and mud! Anther feature dropped! Instead of thinking how to strategically build maps around them!

  • #571
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,674
    edited December 2017

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    Jackson surviving another shot is far more important than 40 less damage.

    Jackson surviving 1 more shot is far more important then panther surviving one more shot against jackson and firefly?

    Oh please.
    In case you've yet to notice, TDs are being normalized to be less of a burst AT and more of reliable, but lower DPS.

    That means lower damage per shot, but higher durability.
    If you want to only nerf damage, then price would need to go down to match new performance, then you'd be bitching that allies got even cheaper TDs, because that's exactly what would happen with you completely ignoring the reasons for that, as you did with whining about jackson-how about instead of cherry picking changes you'll list ALL of them so there is a context to them instead of making axis look like some kind of martyr faction.

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