DBP Balance Feedback

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  • #782
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited December 2017

    Esxile, you are so wrong.
    I play Wehr because its the faction i used since vcoh, i love its play style. Wehr in fact is the weakest faction now, people dont play germans because they are OP these days, just a matter of habit.

    As Riech put it best in this image
    https://us.v-cdn.net/6026685/uploads/editor/n5/he6dibhkfpqw.png

    Coh was built on asymmetrical factions! vCoh and the beginning of Coh2. Forward to today, Relic and the modders are hell bent to destroy the basics of Coh! DBP killing off OKW 5 levels vet is the last straw! OKW play style is supposed to reward unit preservation long term, after their slow/low resource start!

    Perhaps Relic thinks by standardising all factions, Coh2 can become more attractive for "competitive" but you guys do realise those highly broadcasted competitive RTS are down to APM and luck of scissors-paper-stone?

    I just watched the lasted AEcoh cast with DBP, and it is pathetic how a Panther got rekt by a Jackson, out ranged, out accurate and out penetrated! Panther is a joke for Axis mbt...

    Now dont get me wrong, im not asking for a return to old days, whereby if you allow Axis to stay in T4, its pretty GG. However we should have some clear advantages at T4, like what Allies have at T0-T3. You want to change the Jackson, sure. But is there a need to nerf the Panther? When it is expensive and have terrible accuracy? The reason about spamming panthers dont make sense!

  • #783
    2 years ago

    I think the best feedback we can give Relic is with win/loss rates for the factions. A lot of balance changes seem to be based on that, since that's sort of the goal of balance- giving two equally skilled players an equal chance of winning as different factions.
    However, there's a limitation there- if, let's say, some players are better, and they only play as one faction, it starts to look like that faction is too powerful. Then, if that faction is nerfed, and you keep trying really hard and winning, everything still seems ok on the win/loss front.

    An important question to ask yourself is what's more important to you for your enjoyment of the game- playing as your favorite faction, or having a higher win rate. If you choose win rate, switch sides so you can statistically demonstrate that you have a higher win rate as the opposing faction. If playing as a certain faction is more important to you, you'll have to lose to send that same statistical message, but it's your choice if that's what you value more. The more one side dominates, the more important it becomes to fix the problem so players are willing to stick with the game.

    I guess what I'm saying is it's important to give feedback through both words and statistics, and we should keep it up. Balance is a moving target when a game is updated over time, but that's still better than not bothering to change it at all.

  • #784
    2 years ago
    Win/loss rates isnt enough and its dangerous.
    "Ah soviet are up 3% so we opted to further nerf the maxim supression (supressing 1 squad before it getting a grenade off 1/2 the time offers too little counterplay) and the demo is now visible into the fog of war, it will also self detonate when in sight to ensure that blobs remain as safe as can be"
    Or "ost players must now re-research BP3 for every panther they build, also its scatter will vary from all available values as building a final tier weapon and expecting any sort of reliability are intended to be mutually exclusive"
  • #785
    2 years ago

    I totally agree that it's not enough to balance around win/loss rates. It can definitely add to balance problems since it assumes that players are of equal skill level and doesn't show what is or isn't fair within the game.

    It's just that objectively balancing a game like this is very difficult, so my suggestion was that we could try and use the statistic as a tool to demonstrate that unfairness exists in the game.

  • #786
    2 years ago
    ReichsgardeReichsgar… Bad Tolz, Bayern, GermanyPosts: 121

    All right. Currently, the Jackson is too strong with its 60 range, high rate of fire, and most of all, its crazy damage output. The Panther stands absolutely no chance with its 50 range, low rate of fire, and mediocre damage.

    Panther's range needs to be buffed to 60.

  • #787
    2 years ago

    The problem is that they destroyed the base of OKW, nerfing the VET system, nerfing the infantry and the armor, and did not give anything back. And all this while buffing the allies. Making so many changes of this importance together and not expecting the game to get unbalanced is naive.

    I'm not complaining about a specific change here, even if I do not agree with many of the proposed changes, if the team really thought it necessary, but nerf the early, mid and late game in the same patch in several units is wrong.

  • #788
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited December 2017

    @Hingie said:
    Whether trough incompetence or malignous intent, this patch is in line with a long, long series of others to absolutely fail at its intended purpose. Metas weren't changed, only reinforced.

    How were metas reinforced? Dshk, penals, luchs, volks, etc. recieved nerfs. Several call-in tanks were tied to tech. I agree there's some questionable changes, but I think there's more good than bad overall. But to say metas were reinforced makes no sense to me, especially with some of the commander buffs we got.

  • #789
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681
    edited December 2017

    I agree with the above-pretty much all stale and firm meta aspects were nerfed, which should open some new possibilities.
    I hope new meta will be a bit more diverse then 1 BO for every faction.

  • #790
    2 years ago

    @mrgame2 said:never
    Esxile, you are so wrong.
    I play Wehr because its the faction i used since vcoh, i love its play style. Wehr in fact is the weakest faction now, people dont play germans because they are OP these days, just a matter of habit.

    As Riech put it best in this image
    https://us.v-cdn.net/6026685/uploads/editor/n5/he6dibhkfpqw.png

    Coh was built on asymmetrical factions! vCoh and the beginning of Coh2. Forward to today, Relic and the modders are hell bent to destroy the basics of Coh! DBP killing off OKW 5 levels vet is the last straw! OKW play style is supposed to reward unit preservation long term, after their slow/low resource start!

    I just watched the lasted AEcoh cast with DBP, and it is pathetic how a Panther got rekt by a Jackson, out ranged, out accurate and out penetrated! Panther is a joke for Axis mbt...

    Now dont get me wrong, im not asking for a return to old days, whereby if you allow Axis to stay in T4, its pretty GG. However we should have some clear advantages at T4, like what Allies have at T0-T3. You want to change the Jackson, sure. But is there a need to nerf the Panther? When it is expensive and have terrible accuracy? The reason about spamming panthers dont make sense!

    Owk at first had minimal investments in terms of manpower. they had a very cheap and effective early game wich scaled so well into the late game allowing them litteraly to float in manpower. they had a stable mid game and a OP late game to top it off. (okw early aggresive faction LOL) This included the vet 5 shreck blob wich just sniped inf and tanks alike and made flanking a KT or panther near impossible to pull off. They were even able to fight off upgraded inf with vet 5 when their ai took a hit from upgrading to shrecks. The suppressing kubbel (with next to no setup time) and speed off light made that even worse.
    In team games this was even worse with the ost economy backin okw. Panthers were spammed and replaced easely in these bigger modes. and no allied AT source or tank for that matter could counter that effectively until the AT buff a while back.

    Back then if any allied player dared to speak up in the forums about these isseus the axis crowd opend their mouths and only spouted: L2P, get gud, omg noob etc. But if anything soviet/usf actualy worked vs ost or okw for that matter it was cheese and OP and only nerf request left their mouths. And it never stopped until it was finaly nerfed.

    This thank god this is a lot less on this forum. good job guys keep it up.

    Sorry for my little rant. now to my point.

    Dont get me wrong i like the a-symatry and rng but not to the extent it was before.
    There was just to much a-symitry to be able to balance the game. for axis getting to the late game was not impossible it happend quite often and in bigger modes it happend every time. for allies winning in the late game was near impossible at this time. wrong doctrine meant gg from the start of the match. that is just bad a-symatry. Axis really had a redicoules amount off AT power vs mostly paper tanks and allied AT was no real threat to them. nice a-symatry there massively in favor off axis. the AI power off allies was nowere near as powerfull by comparison. arty was nerfed quite hard so its compensation for the allied lacking AT and decent at best AI was next to none from that moment on.

    Right now in the december path there is still asymatry but not as redicolus as before. the only glaring issues i see now are T4 for ost not being efficient. And ost late game grens/pgrens wich cant really compete with western allied inf late game.

  • #791
    2 years ago

    Well, one thing which I really looked forward to would be repairing WM, and they did some changes but Grens are still bad.
    I mean they are ok with accuracy and DPS but being only 4 man squad late game is a big problem. Arty, snipers and everything else just makes them into a burst weapon. Come in, try to kill something, retreat as fast as possible before somehing wipes you.

    I understand that Pgrens and other ''elite''units need to stay 4 man or they would wreck, but WM does not have a true elite. All their infantry units are meh when compared to units like Obers and Rangers. And I would be ok with that if Grens were at least usable in a big match endgame. But IMHO they are not that usefull cause at that point there is a lot of AoE flying around.

  • #792
    2 years ago
    ReichsgardeReichsgar… Bad Tolz, Bayern, GermanyPosts: 121

    @Widerstreit Du denkst nicht dass der Panther an einem schlechten ort ist?

    I sincerely believe that WM has no long-range weaponry (i.e. with 60 range) that can reliably compete with Jacksons or any other Allied/Soviet TD. PaK 40s have 60 range you say? What gives every other faction the right to have a 60-range self-propelled unit whereas WM does not? I thought about suggesting 60 range for StuG III but I know that USF/UKF/SU players will complain how OP StuGs are when they're clearly not. So give 60 range to the Panther and I think it's justified.

    @Mr_Smith I don't know anyone else in the DBP team so I address this to you. Do you really think the current DBP patch will bring balance to the game? What faction do you normally play as? Have you tried the DBP WM and OKW against a decent Allied/Soviet player? Also, if possible, I would greatly appreciate it if you could share your opinion and that of the DBP team with us here in this thread so that we know you are listening to us.

    As of now, in my opinion, DBP places too many handicaps on both WM and OKW. I recall an in-game unit quote from CoH 1, when a German infantryman yells, "A******s! Just wait till you face our tanks!" Unfortunately, this quote is no longer applicable. Both WM and OKW should be fielding great late-armor units that ARE SUPPOSED TO make Allied/Soviet players sweat, not have an easy time with them with out-ranging Jacksons and SU-85s. Sometimes, I think CoH 2 just makes a mockery out of the historical German tanks as well as infantry units.

    I bet if I showed this game to an Allied/Soviet war veteran, he would say, "If the German army had been this incompetent and their weapons this ineffective, we would have taken Berlin 2 years earlier."

  • #793
    2 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    edited December 2017
    > I recall an in-game unit quote from CoH 1, when a German infantryman yells, "A******s! Just wait till you face our tanks!"
    Unfortunately, this quote is no longer applicable.

    No, but the quote from when you stick a gren squad inside a 251 HT and move it around a bit does.
    "Hey driver, I'll give you another reichmark if you drive this thing back to Berlin!"
    Should have been "back to Relic", but meh...


    > I bet if I showed this game to an Allied/Soviet war veteran, he would say, "If the German army had been this incompetent and their weapons this ineffective, we would have taken Berlin 2 years earlier."

    Actually the war wouldn't even have started in proper then, since Poland would have kicked their asses and invaded Berlin themselves...
  • #795
    2 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    edited December 2017

    My last changes would be:

    Ost:

    • Tiger 1 range from 45 to 50 -> Vet2 from 50 to 55. (to compensate new hp of Jackson and ISU152)
    • PaK40 range 60 to 62,5 like hull-down Panther. (to out-range tank-hunters, to compensate lack of range-untis)
    • Remove Scope-ability -> improve sight of 222 non-doc.
    • StuG3 G. nerf Vet3 only -15% relaod (from -30%) and price to 100fuel. (makes Panther more attractive)
    • Panther same accuracy like Comet. (makes Panther more attractive)

    OKW:

    • Luchs old Building time (Brits can now counter it)

    Brits:

    • Piat non-doc to get early light AT to compensate lack of nade.
      [I am working on a Slot_item_ability that allowes every troup with piat to shoot an explosive round, like aef bunker-rifle-nade -> so we can nerf Bren a little bit and brits become more fun to play]

    • 6pounder remove the extra 25% accuracy versus vehicle damage from 160 to 140. (to give German light-vehicle a Chance, still good enough for all other tanks to counter)

    Soviet:

    • SU67 range from 60 to 55. (to bring it in line with its high pen and low price)
    • SU85 nerf +sight-ability to 60 (like it's range)

    US:

    • /
  • #796
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    Panther nerf came out of nowhere! Was there a dominant panther meta needing a nerf? If anything, most axis players rather skipped panther because how cost ineffective it was. The funny thing, Relic modders decided to nerf the panther first, and only later make it slighter cheaper to compensate the nerf!

    Right now Panther is crap despite lower build cost. Accuracy was already bad, so they make it worse. smh.

    As for OKW, instead of nerfing vet5 like making higher XP requirements and low stats gains, Relic just gutted the whole thing! That is my biggest unhappiness with how Relic approach balancing the game, just get rid of everything!

  • #797
    2 years ago
    Lnk003Lnk003 Posts: 420

    @Mr_Smith Will there be new patches ? This one is pretty huge so i was wondering.

  • #798
    2 years ago

    The Luchs build time increase is insane. Pls revert or make less severe.

  • #799
    2 years ago
    vsrvsr Posts: 93
    edited December 2017

    OMG so many axis fan players complaining without any hard proof like gameplays videos. PLEASE STOP you are not going to achieve anything.

  • #800
    2 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    @vsr
    Then where are YOUR replays that show that everything is just fine? Where are your "hard proof"? Sticks and stones, dude...
  • #802
    2 years ago
    vsrvsr Posts: 93

    I am not the one who is complaining about this patch, i am satisfied with how the things are atm. :/

  • #803
    2 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    @vsr
    So turn the tables.
    How would YOU feel if we nerfed the Jackson the same way the Panther are being nerfed? How would YOU feel if RM got destroyed 15 secs into a fight with virtually ANY other infantry unit? The goddamn Combat Engineers can beat the grens under the right circumstances,for Christ sake..!

    Do yourself a favour and try thinking in a broader context for once...
  • #804
    2 years ago
    @LazarUs i agree with your assessment. Alot of good is coming from this patch, but much makes me scratch my head. I know ive bitched about it enough already but as an example: the demo. Was it too potent? Yes. Will ANYONE ever build it now? Absolutely not. One step forward, one step back. ..
    I think my biggest disappointment is the shortness of the cycle. Setting up to finish in a finite amount of versions instead of a set amount of time is annoying (especially seeing the last couple with mostly bug fixes like other things cant be adressed)

    It will be good to shake up the meta and see what settles but there is much undone (as you said east and west Germany are different in tactic only, less and less by design..)
  • #806
    2 years ago
    ReichsgardeReichsgar… Bad Tolz, Bayern, GermanyPosts: 121
    edited December 2017

    @Widerstreit You speak sound logic. However, I still think a buff for the Panther is required in the following way:

    • Panther gains range +5 at Vet 2.
    • Panther gains reload time -0.5 sec at Vet 2.
    • Panther gains stationary accuracy boost at Vet 3.

    And I fully agree with changing the skin on the Tiger Ace tank with the other cosmetic changes you mentioned. However, I also think the pop cost on the Tiger Ace is a little too high at 26. Maybe 25 or 24 is more in line with its performance.

  • #807
    2 years ago

    but the comet is crap... its a more expensive t3485

  • #808
    2 years ago
    The reload buff to the panther is easily the most noticeable of all the changes they did to it. I still think they should've replaced the armor bonus with an accuracy bonus at vet 2, but the panther is being tweaked, not nerfed.
  • #809
    2 years ago
    vsrvsr Posts: 93
    edited December 2017

    @Reichsgarde You speak sound logic. However, I think a buff for the SU-85 is required in the following way:

    SU-85 gains range +5 at Vet 2.
    SU-85 gains reload time -0.5 sec at Vet 2.
    SU-85 gains stationary accuracy boost at Vet 3.

    However, I also think the pop cost on the IS-2 is a little too high at 12. Maybe 5 or 4 is more in line with its performance.

  • #810
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681
    edited December 2017

    So, after playing EXTENSIVELY with conscripts against top 50 players, got to say they still underperform.

    They aren't able to stand up to grens, even if you oorah into CQC, they still get shredded, LMGs do not even have to be involved.

    I've tried cons and their vanila state without doctrinal kick is so sorry its not funny.

    While all other changes I do believe did achieved their goal, conscripts were shit, are shit and will continue to be shit without doctrinal upgrades as it stands now.

    Molotovs are still terrible and on top of that, now cost 20mun instead of 15, which only puts huge ammo strain on con play and you still get little reward out of it, oorah increased muni cost isn't helping here either as you're forced for huge muni dumps for no reward out of that commitment.

    I don't see shift from penal meta at all, because cons remain backbone that breaks under any breeze.

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