USF SMOKE - Which USF Squad should have access to smoke grenades?

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Comments

  • #122
    2 years ago
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented
    @SkysTheLimit nobody is saying its as bad as a decision as volks shreks (seriously WHO thought that was a good idea) but the accessibility of such a tactic changer is certainly problematic enough particularly because of how heavily ost relies on the MG42. If supression wasnt all but required for ost to fight usf it wouldnt be quite as big a deal, but grens are not WFA boosted and suffer greatly (and with 4 men always will)
  • #123
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited December 2017
    Other (leave feedback below)

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @SkysTheLimit nobody is saying its as bad as a decision as volks shreks (seriously WHO thought that was a good idea) but the accessibility of such a tactic changer is certainly problematic enough particularly because of how heavily ost relies on the MG42. If supression wasnt all but required for ost to fight usf it wouldnt be quite as big a deal, but grens are not WFA boosted and suffer greatly (and with 4 men always will)

    The guy I quoted said it was equal to always having the star available in mario. Smoke does not make them unkillable, and if you have anything else in the area, at best it pauses the fight. That's damn useful to be sure, but its not that monstrous.

    And I'm on the side of making grens more useful, I just want to be cautious about it since they still really do have the best support weapons. I still would love to see an x% explosive damage resistance (maybe 30%?) be put into their vet 2 or 3 give them SOME way to combat that vulnerability to wipes.

  • #124
    2 years ago
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    @SkysTheLimit

    Power Balance Says I, who mentions the Mario Star.

  • #125
    2 years ago
    The_CenturionThe_Centu… Posts: 12
    edited December 2017
    Riflemen (Live version)
    i voted for rifle men , we have only 3 officers in game and one or 2 is skipped , the rifle man is the one who has to lead the attacks , re s are so week and mostly use for caps and putting them in fighting positions , there are 4 or 3 riflemen in 1v1 matches and if any of them engages with the hmg u can use ur smoke rounds but about re s , i make only 2 and use them for defense most of the time not for agressive play, the smokes should stay with the rifles , just dont ruin usf , the ost will be so happy and just spam hmg . The rifle company is broken and only works for early game. There are no vet 1 rifles with flame , the flame is for re s now , wanna give re s grenades too?? Easy 8 cost 140 fuel and needs the battalion command too .
  • #126
    2 years ago

    @The_Centurion said:
    i voted for rifle man , we have only 3 officers in game and one or 2 is skipped , the rifle man is the one who has to lead the attacks , re s are so week and mostly use for caps and putting them in fighting positions , there are 4 or 3 riflemans in 1v1 matches and if any of them engages with the hmg u can use ur smoke rounds but about re s , i make only 2 and use them for defense most of the time not for agressive play, the smokes should stay with the rifles , just dont ruin usf , the ost will be so happy and just spam hmg . The rifle company is broken and only works for early game. There are no vet 1 rifles with flame , the flame is for re s now , wanna give re s grenades too?? Easy 8 cost 140 fuel and needs the battalion command too .

    The reason why USF was given their own mortar (which is t0 and insanely cheap with very low scatter) was to counter static weapons. There is absolutely no reason that Riflemen should still retain smoke grenades, as it simply enforces spam instead of forcing USF to adopt combined arms, like every other faction is.

  • #127
    2 years ago
    The_CenturionThe_Centu… Posts: 12
    edited December 2017
    Riflemen (Live version)
    Just think the rifle squad is pinned the mortar is going to smoke on the target in the moment a grenadier squad flanks u and starts attacking ur mortar and the rifle is still pinned then what? Pack up every thing and retreat? Or maybe losing the mortar and the ost use it against u ? Cuz the grenadier rifle grenade is so op .Losing the map control is terrible for any faction .
  • #128
    2 years ago
    > @The_Centurion said:
    > Just think the rifle squad is pinned the mortar is going to smoke on the target in the moment a grenadier squad flanks u and starts attacking ur mortar and the rifle is still pinned then what? Pack up every thing and retreat? Or maybe losing the mortar and the ost use it against u ? Cuz the grenadier rifle grenade is so op .Losing the map control is terrible for any faction .

    You have just described a situation that Ost has struggled with for 5 years, and OKW didn't even have a smoke prior to the last patch.
  • #129
    2 years ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 993
    Riflemen (Live version)

    My spirit animal told me in my dreams that my opinion was needed here. My spirit animal is also an 8 month old tub of potato salad, I also don't play USF as often as other factions, so take what you will.

    This new implementation is not really going to help much, REs now have smoke. Congratulations, you have put the ability to smoke out garrisons to one of the most cheapest units in the game. Now prepared to be smoked to oblivion.

    I mean, putting it on rifle wasn't any better, but atleast people have (mostly) adjusted to reefermen 420 already. Also add in smoke from mortars and various other sources from doctrines and non T0 units. It's fairly redundant.

    Also consider that rifles don't get smoke from the get go, you have to pay fuel and some manpower just to even have to ability to use them.

    That said, aside from the little block above my post, my general opinion is not fully formed, I'm just going to play the game and see what happens.

  • #130
    2 years ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 468
    edited December 2017
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    The potency of rifles comes with stomping over mg's at any point in the game, (plus their strong survivability and combined firepower) with the current test change, it gives a limitation to that steamroller. It creates a change in the way the player has to react, instead of just having a carefree attitude. Mentioning a teching delay or tactical scenario is asinine. The focus that I, and several others have pointed out, isn't anything other than how smoke negates the dangers that rifles face. Furthermore how the USF faction by default has enough smoke as it is. I will say it again, timing/time is irrelevant. Whether you get it now or later...you still have that ability, and that ability cancels out their hard counter.

    I'd still prefer it on officers, but let's see how it goes, at least they are testing it out. Now people will have more of a reason to throw RE's into the fray.

  • #131
    2 years ago
    Other (leave feedback below)

    @eonfigure said:
    Mentioning a teching delay or tactical scenario is asinine.

    What? Please explain why we should just ignore the timing and costs of things when we decide if they are fair or not? That could not make any less sense, timing is critical for just about every unit and ability in this game....

  • #132
    2 years ago
    Riflemen (Live version)

    @Noitatohtori said:
    There is absolutely no reason that Riflemen should still retain smoke grenades, as it simply enforces spam instead of forcing USF to adopt combined arms, like every other faction is.

    Every other faction can get another tier right away though OR they have more options in their HQ. Don't get how REs pretty much went unbuffed outside of getting the light AT mines and becoming the replacement smoke squad. If you want to diversify US openings how about making their engineer less pitifully useless aside from double-zooking.

  • #133
    2 years ago
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @eonfigure said:
    Mentioning a teching delay or tactical scenario is asinine.

    What? Please explain why we should just ignore the timing and costs of things when we decide if they are fair or not? That could not make any less sense, timing is critical for just about every unit and ability in this game....

    Literally my next sentence in that post. If you can't understand that concept, I dont know if there's anything I or someone else can do to explain it to you.

    But you know what? I'll try just for you, since you seem to be so locked in to my every word. It's quite flattering really.

    It's kinda like two people playing rock, paper, scissors...mentioning the weather outside or the mood of the player's is pointless. Timing: Even if the player throws a scissors, either before or after the other player has played rock; the outcome will be the same. The crucial point being the result, not factors of the result.

    I'm always willing to teach, if you need more help sky, please do not hesitate to seek me out. Oh and feel free to read the next sentence in my previous post, as i said, it has the answer you're looking for.

  • #134
    2 years ago
    Other (leave feedback below)

    @eonfigure said:
    Literally my next sentence in that post. If you can't understand that concept, I dont know if there's anything I or someone else can do to explain it to you.
    It's kinda like two people playing rock, paper, scissors...mentioning the weather outside or the mood of the player's is pointless. Timing: Even if the player throws a scissors, either before or after the other player has played rock; the outcome will be the same. The crucial point being the result, not factors of the result.

    The cost of unlocking something in company of heroes is not analogous to mentioning the weather in a game of rock paper scissors. It is far more relevant than that.

  • #135
    2 years ago
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented
    @SkysTheLimit is correct, the cost IS important. Timing? Not so much because they price is low enough that you can get it when you need it.

    I think part of the problem IS the price. You get grenades for the same price that UKF pays for grenades but also get smoke, and on some of the most potent and flexible infantry to boot. For the price soviet pay to snare tanks with cons the usf player can deal burst damage to garrisons and flush cover then they can disable armour and the can block LOS. But unlike rifles with their smoke cons snare needs use of another unit to ensure the snare on mediums+ or oorah to snare lights.

    Seems like they based the costs of allied side techs off of the soviet side techs completely forgetting the balanceing factor that cons being completely unspammable and uncustomizableand certainly undesirable brought to the table.
  • #136
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    You get grenades for the same price that UKF pays for grenades but also get smoke, and on some of the most potent and flexible infantry to boot.

    Oh no we fixed that totally unfair balance issue. UKF now has easier access to grenades. Cuz y'know... their infantry is so weak and impotent that Sturms still stand a chance in the first 5 min.

  • #137
    2 years ago
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented
    @Lazarus i must have missed that change, would you mind posting it? (For ease of others reading and also im a lazy piece of shit)
  • #138
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @Lazarus i must have missed that change, would you mind posting it? (For ease of others reading and also im a lazy piece of shit)

    Of course my friend, bask in the glory of UKF buffs

    MK II Mills Bombs

    • Upgrade cost from 150/15 to 100/10
    • No longer requires Platoon Command Post to upgrade
  • #139
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    edited December 2017
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented
    @lazarus thanks!
    Also wtf. That makes them a whooping 20mp more than molitovs to unlock if i recall proper.

    Edit: also i guess i misremebered the price of them.
  • #140
    2 years ago
    > @JackRabbit said:
    > Every other faction can get another tier right away though OR they have more options in their HQ. Don't get how REs pretty much went unbuffed outside of getting the light AT mines and becoming the replacement smoke squad. If you want to diversify US openings how about making their engineer less pitifully useless aside from double-zooking.

    No other faction has all the tools they need to survive into the later phases to the extent the UKF have, not even OKW and Brits. In their opening, they have smoke, mortar, good infantry with access to AI and AT firepower, an MG in the form of a fighting pit. "But they have to pay and delay teching to get those tools." Yed, but it is a choice, and you can just take a mortar and use that to get rid of enemy mg's, because it's a really good mortar with very good infantry to protect it. UKF don't need varying openings since their riflemen can do everything. It's an incredible advantage over, say, Ostheer, who crumble instantly if any part of their fragile lineup is disturbed. Smoke the MG42, and the Grens are too weak to keep up the fight by themselves.
  • #141
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    Other (leave feedback below)

    Smoke should be available to officers and elite infatry. That would add utility to these units making them more attractive while keep it in available from stock units but in limited numbers.

  • #142
    2 years ago
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @eonfigure said:
    Literally my next sentence in that post. If you can't understand that concept, I dont know if there's anything I or someone else can do to explain it to you.
    It's kinda like two people playing rock, paper, scissors...mentioning the weather outside or the mood of the player's is pointless. Timing: Even if the player throws a scissors, either before or after the other player has played rock; the outcome will be the same. The crucial point being the result, not factors of the result.

    The cost of unlocking something in company of heroes is not analogous to mentioning the weather in a game of rock paper scissors. It is far more relevant than that.

    I just said i'd give you an explanation/answer, the pertinence of whether you agree or not is an entirely different matter.

  • #143
    2 years ago
    Other (leave feedback below)

    @eonfigure said:
    I just said i'd give you an explanation/answer, the pertinence of whether you agree or not is an entirely different matter.

    And it made zero sense, forget about agreeing or disagreeing. Cost of units/upgrades is constantly being tweaked by the developers almost every patch. Meanwhile you are possibly the first human in history to talk about rock paper scissors and weather in the same sentence.

    Try explaining your points with actual discussion about the game instead of your usual links to memes and crappy metaphors. Or feel free to keep linking me to yu-gi-oh memes or whatever that was a few posts back...

  • #144
    2 years ago
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @eonfigure said:
    I just said i'd give you an explanation/answer, the pertinence of whether you agree or not is an entirely different matter.

    And it made zero sense, forget about agreeing or disagreeing. Cost of units/upgrades is constantly being tweaked by the developers almost every patch. Meanwhile you are possibly the first human in history to talk about rock paper scissors and weather in the same sentence.

    Try explaining your points with actual discussion about the game instead of your usual links to memes and crappy metaphors. Or feel free to keep linking me to yu-gi-oh memes or whatever that was a few posts back...

    You sound quite upset, I recommend acupuncture, couple of memes wouldn't hurt either.

  • #145
    2 years ago
    Other (leave feedback below)
    @eonfigure You're trolling on a forum for a video game? Find somewhere else man, I'm just trying to discuss the game.
  • #146
    2 years ago
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    Find somewhere else man

    I know you would like nothing more sky, unfortunately for you it's not going to happen.

  • #147
    2 years ago
    Other (leave feedback below)
    @eonfigure Still not talking about company of heroes?

    By your logic grenade tech could've been free and it wouldn't of changed anything. When the first chance you have to get other units is 50 fuel, a 25 fuel purchase coming before or after that is a significant decision.

    Meanwhile ill never hesitate at getting a conscript upgrade before getting one of their first tech options. The first 2 tiers are less fuel total than 1 US one. I'm not complaining about that asymmetry, just explaining why the cost matters. Notice how I did it by talking about the game this forum is for.
  • #148
    2 years ago
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented

    Mm, Actually I have been...that's kinda what i was mentioning in my previous post; about riflemen, and smoke.

    I'm not the one telling people to leave just because i have a difference of opinion, nor would i ever do so. No one here on the forums is above another. Everyone here is entitled to their opinion.

    Whether it's theory or logic, I hold in no regards the need to satiate another through convincing.

  • #149
    2 years ago
    WunderKatzeWunderKat… Posts: 731
    edited December 2017
    Riflemen (Live version)

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    Notice that the majority of the people that voted for riflemen have 0 posts on the forum.................. Yes, I am suggesting something.

    Yeah. I see it too. It's almost like all the people who spent more time playing the game than complaining about allies (or axis) on the forums decided to vote on this critical issue.

    OKW is completely out of control they had none of the nerfs they need to their early game, Volks are still an obscenely cost effective unit. Giving Volks incendaries without tech didn't solve garrison problems they just gave OKW complete garrison control for the first couple of minutes of the game.

    Removing smoke from rifles was a bad idea because now to have any measure of success USF is forced into trying to use either the mortar or RE which are both terrible late game units. If you are going to take smoke off Rifles the USF mortar needs a buff to make it viable throughout the game.

    You and the others who are getting your posts buried by dislikes have never (and I mean never) had opinions about balance that reflected the realities of this game. http://coh2chart.com/ This isn't my opinion, this isn't anecdotal, I'm am talking about the hard winrate statistics.

    I've tried to play this game again and reclaim my top 100 rankings but I'm done. I'm going to go play TW: WH II.

  • #151
    2 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited December 2017
    Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented
    > @WunderKatze said:
    > @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    > Notice that the majority of the people that voted for riflemen have 0 posts on the forum.................. Yes, I am suggesting something.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Yeah. I see it too. It's almost like all the people who spent more time playing the game than complaining about allies (or axis) on the forums decided to vote on this critical issue.
    >
    > OKW is completely out of control they had none of the nerfs they need to their early game, Volks are still an obscenely cost effective unit. Giving Volks incendaries without tech didn't solve garrison problems they just gave OKW complete garrison control for the first couple of minutes of the game.
    >
    > Removing smoke from rifles was a bad idea because now to have any measure of success USF is forced into trying to use either the mortar or RE which are both terrible late game units. If you are going to take smoke off Rifles the USF mortar needs a buff to make it viable throughout the game.
    >
    > You and the others who are getting your posts buried by dislikes have never (and I mean never) had opinions about balance that reflected the realities of this game. http://coh2chart.com/ This isn't my opinion, this isn't anecdotal, I'm am talking about the hard winrate statistics.
    >
    > I've tried to play this game again and reclaim my top 100 rankings but I'm done. I'm going to go play TW: WH II.

    This post is hilarious. Everyone who voted riflemen use the same silly excuse to defend people who voted riflemen when a surprising number of them don't have a single post on the forums. I recall that most of these people casted their votes within hours of this thread being created. This proves that these ghosts are very active on the forums, active in only hitting those like/dislike buttons :D , while being unable to post any constructive arguments/criticism to support their opinions. And how can anyone prove that these people somehow play the game more than others who have differing opinions of smoke? Speak for yourself for once. And if you're still looking at www.coh2chart.com you should realize that the site hasn't been updated for months due to Relic's servers being uncooperative (for some convenient reason) as the site creators have clearly stated at the top of their websites. So I know the people that dare to claim that axis or allied have higher winrates in whatever gamemode(s) are simply pulling it out of their ass since nobody actually knows unless there is some website that I have no knowledge of.

    And complaining that OKW hasn't received proper nerfs couldn't be further from the truth. It is easily the hardest nerfed faction of this patch. And you still want more. :D Please, just read the patchnotes and see for yourself which faction got the short end of the stick.

    Getting one's posts buried by dislikes mean little on this forum. This forum operates on a concept of blind democracy and inclusiveness. Not all forum members are as knowledgeable of the game as we would like to put it mildly. As I've suggested earlier, some members hit like/dislike just for the hell of it and using the # of likes/dislikes to measure the merit in one's comments is unfortunately a poor way to balance the game. I'm not saying that the likes/dislikes hold absolutely zero meaning but it should not be used as a sole measure for the quality of the comment. Many comments as well as the likes/dislikes they garner are based on feelings, but not facts and EVERYONE is guilty of it, however some are more guilty than others. Trust me, I've mentioned countless times that we should log in to the forum using our playercards as UserID. And countless times, I've been rebuffed by the moderators. So I don't mention it anymore.

    I'm not exceptionally familiar with the USF mortar veterancy but I believe that somewhere one of the vet bonuses extend the range of the smoke barrage. I'd say if the mortar needs a buff, maybe at vet 3 it should get a smoke range buff so that it gets a farther range than even the Ost mortar to help USF late game. But ONLY for the smoke barrages.

    Funny that you say, you'll quit CoH2. I said roughly the same about a month ago for the opposite reasons. So I thank you for waking me and my old post up from the dead. You may find a rather lucrative career in necromancy. I still peruse the forums occasionally if the balance team shows signs of waking up from its allied-loving fairytale of a COH2 game.
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