[All][Ost] Grenadier Scaling

135678

Comments

  • #62
    1 year ago
    MustiMusti Posts: 20

    I'm liking those ideas people, very cool indeed.

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    I have no idea what %number would be good for explosive resistance in a flak jacket, but I do know I like dark's idea of tossing it a late tier since so many are calling for more teching incentives for Ost.

    I'm thinking like a 0.95 modifier tied to BP2-3 would be a great idea. Having your squad be literally impossible to OHK with mortars/grenades is huge, and it would be compounded with influence it would have on other AOE damage (artillery, tank cannons etc.). I really dig this idea, if it's not overdone (as I feel it's easy with such a "experimental" buff).
    Question is if it actually can be done.

    As for RA bonus, how about a happy medium and just split it into Vet 2-3 rather than 1-2? It would still be earlier, but it would also upset the con-gren balance less.

    As for other ideas here's a wild one: allow buying both G43s and MG42s after BP3. Don't know if it actually a good idea,
    (probably not maybe with sufficent tweaks?) but you know, something to think about.

    But the magical trio of RA split/Explo. resist./ better accuracy against suppressed targets I like very much. With sufficient tweaks to cons (so that they're not left behind again) we could have something interesting, assuming that grens won't become too bloated.

  • #64
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,817
    @Lazarus or more cons to support your cons!
  • #65
    1 year ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,020

    Well - ideally conspam shouldn't be long-term viable, in the same way that gren spam shouldn't be long-term viable (cough lock out rifle grenade after lmg42 so they can't smack around inf and support weapons cough). But hey, that's just like - my opinion.

  • #66
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,605
    edited January 2018

    @Lazarus said:

    @Katitof said:

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    Post-patch, every mainline squad has RA bonus at 2 different vet levels besides Grens and Tommies, and the latter as we all know has much better starting RA. Getting like -10% at vet 1 would be huge, and then give -15% at vet 3. That would be an overall buff of just -2% but the split would be really helpful.

    I have no idea what %number would be good for explosive resistance in a flak jacket, but I do know I like dark's idea of tossing it a late tier since so many are calling for more teching incentives for Ost.

    You need to look at all unit relations as well.
    Grens scale with DPS spike thanks to LMG, if they got 10% RA at vet1, we'd be at starting point with cons against them, where cons are once more up and how do you make up for that now without messing the relation to volks?

    Its not domino piece you want to switch, its a card on the foundation of house of cards that will have consequences in all match ups.

    Ugh. I know, it's so hard to balance. If only we gave the Soviets a unit other than cons before T3...

    Yeah - 240 MP unit with 60 muni investment handily beats 240 MP unit. What a shocker. You want something to always beat Grens always buy Penals. Or a sniper to support your cons. Or a maxim to support your cons. Or a mortar, to support your cons. Or a clown car to support your cons.

    Lets extend that logic to ost then, shall we?
    If we only could add HMGs or snipers to support grens... or some kind of early game, cheap transport vehicle that would allow you constant on field reinforcement.

    Gee, its ALMOST as if cheapest infantries in game are supposed to be supported by support weapon or early game light vehicles.

    Woah! What a revelation!

  • #67
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,817
    @Katitof the point with grens isnt that they need support, its that they can melt away in a blink despite it. All the best support wont save your vet from a lucky mortar shell, sherman HE, a matress barrage or just focus fire from infantry. They are glass without the cannon. That said Grens ARE beautifully designed, they really are... A small long ranged squad designed to lose minimal DPS with loses but BUT enter WFA and all the changes after that have made them simply out matched and out gunned. Look at rifle vet for example- already a nasty match up rifles get the same bonus level of REC ACC that grens get at vet 3 at vet 2, and then half again more at vet 3. Giving them more models, more durability, better on the move and you can slap double bars on them.
    Look at tommies- same squad initially, but more durable. They ALSO get the same -23% rec acc *gasp* a whole level sooner. They may not be as accurate but thats EASILY made up by being able to add another target and rifle for a 1 time cost, and them 5 models can ALSO double arm with lmgs... And for less bleed to boot!

    And the soviet have penals to thrash with their incredible accuracy (6 very accurate men shooting at 4 slightly SLIGHTLY harder to hit guys)

    Needing support, even if its top tier is a huge drawback when it forces you static to engage when the enemy does not need to be. It makes you a target and it makes you vulnerable and opeing yourself up to such vulnerabilities when you are already outmatched and squishy as all hell you have a massive problem.

    ANYWAYS TLDR, everything out matches grens from the word go which just compounds with the designed weakness of grens and the ost faction. This is why i suggest some updateing, QOL and realigning of grens.

    These suggestions span acrpss the entire game not giving much of a leg up across the whole of it but stabilizing the rickity foundation

    -realign vet distribution: almost every other unit gets some rec acc reduction at vet 2 (partisans get it for christ sake... PARTISANS! And the god damned major too) but not the one that arguably needs it most..

    - flak jacket type improvment for the latest stages of the game, this is 2 fold. Improving the durability of the squishies mainline when they are most likely to get wiped AND provide more incentive to unlock BP3

    -replace med kits with an ability, active or passive o dont care, that grants bonus accuracy/damage to suppressed and pinned troops (maybe called something sweet like "put them down"?)

    This will not make grens blobable, they will still perform best with support, but be less likley to be simply walked over if caught out of position or simply evaporated if unlucky...
  • #68
    1 year ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    I STILL dislike grens getting a 5th man. They were designed around 4 men and should stay as such imho.

    A LOT of nice ideas here, but I still prefer to up their dps(I know I'm alone on this).

    But how about we gave them the possibility to add another lmg42, BUT at an increased price point; say 160-200 munis?

    This would make them a lot more viable AND keep their frail nature intact; "Omg, they are ripping with those two lmgs!"
    Two seconds later; "Oh, never mind. I just wiped them with a hand grenade..."
  • #69
    1 year ago
    Mr_RuinMr_Ruin Posts: 92
    edited January 2018
    Yes, sink more munitions into a unit which is wiped by a slight breeze. Seems like a great idea.

    I think that current squad is a good representation of real Grenadier squad which consisted of 1 sargeant with MP40, one LMG gunner with Mg42, one munitions carrier for the mg (with a pistol) and 7 Kar98 armed men. If you add more mg's you take that historical accuracy away.

    Also what is that you achieve? More burst DPS which will keep the grens as shoot and scoot unit cause it will remain afraid of wipes and soviet players will say that yet again Cons are useless.

    In my opinion Grens need survivability, DPS is ok. How it is done I don't care much. One model more but less accuracy, less received accuracy from vet, anti wipe upgrades ... As long as it does the trick.
  • #70
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    @Katitof Cons were well balanced with grens before the patch, then we decided it was okay to give Cons a complete rework while only giving grens a popcap reduction. For you to suggest we can't buff grens without doing the same for cons is incredibly short-sighted, because we literally just did the reverse of that.

    Conscripts were worse than grens pre-patch sure, but both were out of place performance wise vs wfa infantry, and only one of them was properly adressed.
  • #71
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,605
    edited January 2018

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    @Katitof Cons were well balanced with grens before the patch, then we decided it was okay to give Cons a complete rework while only giving grens a popcap reduction. For you to suggest we can't buff grens without doing the same for cons is incredibly short-sighted, because we literally just did the reverse of that.

    Conscripts were worse than grens pre-patch sure, but both were out of place performance wise vs wfa infantry, and only one of them was properly adressed.

    Buff suggests giving something more to the unit.

    If you're talking about vet3 additional 10% accuracy vet, then that was a buff.

    Lower damage and higher accuracy was not a buff, but adjustment, relative squad DPS remained pretty much the same with ~1dps difference, the unit simply does not rely on massive RNG for large damage, but is more reliable in dealing lower damage now.

    Moving part of vet3 rec acc to vet1 is also adjustment, not raw buff, because the unit doesn't get larger vet.

    You want to adjust grens vet in similar fashion? Sure thing.
    But the unit doesn't really deserve nor need raw stat buff, not without increasing its cost further.

    Stop comparing grens on 1v1 basis against other inf, ost got much more support options then other factions and you're supposed to use that support.

    If nade/mortar OHKs are the concern, then do NOT clump up behind tiniest of yellow cover and you'll be fine.

  • #72
    1 year ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    edited January 2018
    @Mr_Ruin
    (removed)

    Adding a large muni cost for the second lmg would NOT be muni sink. It would be a viable option to keep your grens doing real damage even in the late game, while still keeping them susceptible to damage due to their small squad size...
  • #73
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,605
    edited January 2018

    @Baálthazor said:
    Adding a large muni cost for the second lmg would NOT be muni sink. It would be a viable option to keep your grens doing real damage even in the late game, while still keeping them susceptible to damage due to their small squad size...

    But sure, go ahead, shower me with your superlatives like there is no tomorrow, while avoiding the issue at hand all together..!!!

    So you're up for a nerf of LMG to get 2nd one?
    Because if you expect cheapest mainline infantry in game to get almost 30 DPS long range(and a lot more then 30 with vet), you're beyond delusional.

  • #74
    1 year ago
    Mr_RuinMr_Ruin Posts: 92

    As I already stated, I don't see there is absolutely anything wrong with Grens damage potential. I only see that they suffer more than any other frontline squad from mortars, arty, snipers, HE shells, grenades and mines cause of small squad size.

  • #75
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    @Katitof You can word it however you want, the result is simple. cons are much better now, grens barely changed. The "adjustments" made their performance significantly more reliable.

    You are fighting against some very small scale changes awfully hard. And if you could get your head out of your *** you would not be telling me to stop treating grens in 1v1 scenarios. I pushed back against that exact idea several posts back before you graced us with your presence. One of the buffs I proposed would come with bp3/t4, so you're going overboard by saying the cost clearly needs to increase.
  • #76
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,605

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    @Katitof You can word it however you want, the result is simple. cons are much better now, grens barely changed. The "adjustments" made their performance significantly more reliable.

    And reliable is the keyword here.
    They perform like they always did, its simply steady DPS instead of lucky spikes that might not happen.

    You are fighting against some very small scale changes awfully hard. And if you could get your head out of your *** you would not be telling me to stop treating grens in 1v1 scenarios. I pushed back against that exact idea several posts back before you graced us with your presence. One of the buffs I proposed would come with bp3/t4, so you're going overboard by saying the cost clearly needs to increase.

    I'm fighting against 5th man, because there would be no difference at all between OKW and ost(and that's even before your previous argument of additional firepower, which is legit as well).
    I'm fighting against dual LMG, because we weren't bashing down all LMGs in the past only to introduce another blob friendly option for already strong long range squad on top of what you already said.
    I'm fighting against more then 80 hp, because depending on who is it against, its 10 to 20% boost to EHP against infantry and its simply op against any kind of nades and mortars(as models are supposed to die against certain stuff) and against latter, explosive resistance would equal to 81hp.

    I'm all for moving current vet bonuses to different levels in split however.

  • #77
    1 year ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,020
    > @Katitof said:
    > @Lazarus said:
    >
    > @Katitof said:
    >
    > @SkysTheLimit said:
    > Post-patch, every mainline squad has RA bonus at 2 different vet levels besides Grens and Tommies, and the latter as we all know has much better starting RA. Getting like -10% at vet 1 would be huge, and then give -15% at vet 3. That would be an overall buff of just -2% but the split would be really helpful.
    >
    > I have no idea what %number would be good for explosive resistance in a flak jacket, but I do know I like dark's idea of tossing it a late tier since so many are calling for more teching incentives for Ost.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > You need to look at all unit relations as well.
    > Grens scale with DPS spike thanks to LMG, if they got 10% RA at vet1, we'd be at starting point with cons against them, where cons are once more up and how do you make up for that now without messing the relation to volks?
    >
    > Its not domino piece you want to switch, its a card on the foundation of house of cards that will have consequences in all match ups.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Ugh. I know, it's so hard to balance. If only we gave the Soviets a unit other than cons before T3...
    >
    > Yeah - 240 MP unit with 60 muni investment handily beats 240 MP unit. What a shocker. You want something to always beat Grens always buy Penals. Or a sniper to support your cons. Or a maxim to support your cons. Or a mortar, to support your cons. Or a clown car to support your cons.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Lets extend that logic to ost then, shall we?
    > If we only could add HMGs or snipers to support grens... or some kind of early game, cheap transport vehicle that would allow you constant on field reinforcement.
    >
    > Gee, its ALMOST as if cheapest infantries in game are supposed to be supported by support weapon or early game light vehicles.
    >
    > Woah! What a revelation!

    Nice try kit kat, but swing and a miss, given your complaint listed lmg grens and 240 MP + 60 muni is definitely not one of the cheapest mainline units in the game. Take another crack?
  • #78
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    Cheap infantry should not have access to 2 or more powerful AI weapons, but that includes R.E. and Ro. E. that are actually cheaper than Grenadiers and even become 5 men squads.

  • #79
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,817
    @vipper and RE get the same rec acc grens get at 3 when they get 2 (then 5th man at 3) and sappers while being cheaper and more durable already get to become even cheaper and have an even larger rec acc buff of 33% which if memory serves is one of the largest there is making them nearly as durable as vet 4 sturmpios (who cost 50% more and will never get 5 models or armour or vickers or brens for those keeping track back home)
  • #80
    1 year ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    My previous words may have been poorly chosen and over the top, to the point where I don't think I can push it much further without getting a ban, so I'll try to ease up on the hostile rhetoric...

    @Katitof
    Why do you feel that the grens getting a 2nd lmg at perhaps 200 munis(which is a diffinate premium!) Would put them over the top? With that as their sole "buff", they would certainly out-dps some allies squads, but with their insane squishy nature intact, getting a wipe on such a squad would cost the Ost-player 240MP + 260 munis..! How is that not a decent trade-off?!

    Again, the price point for the 2nd lmg can be debated and discussed, but remember, we are talking about a buff here, not a "you get some if you lose some" situation...
  • #81
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,605
    edited January 2018

    @Baálthazor said:
    My previous words may have been poorly chosen and over the top, to the point where I don't think I can push it much further without getting a ban, so I'll try to ease up on the hostile rhetoric...

    @Katitof
    Why do you feel that the grens getting a 2nd lmg at perhaps 200 munis(which is a diffinate premium!) Would put them over the top? With that as their sole "buff", they would certainly out-dps some allies squads, but with their insane squishy nature intact, getting a wipe on such a squad would cost the Ost-player 240MP + 260 munis..! How is that not a decent trade-off?!

    Again, the price point for the 2nd lmg can be debated and discussed, but remember, we are talking about a buff here, not a "you get some if you lose some" situation...

    The sole fact of you saying it would be 200 muni (perhaps) is all there needs to be said on how silly the idea is.

    I don't even have to add anything.

  • #82
    1 year ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    Then don't add anything else and let the rest of us discuss our bit in peace.
    Simply saying, "horrible suggestion, I prefer the status quo where grens are getting wiped by a light breeze", oozes of you trying to preserve the newly buffed con's, while not letting the grens get their rightly deserved buff(s)...
  • #83
    1 year ago
    Mr_RuinMr_Ruin Posts: 92

    Grens do need a buff, but a buff at the cost of a SCAS for a single unit upgrade?

    If I am ever asked do I want a SCAS or one more mg42, I believe I would take a SCAS.

  • #84
    1 year ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    @Mr_Ruin
    I'm fairly certain I would take the lmg as that would allow me to scale my glass-infantry into the late game...
    Though 200munis was merely an upper price point... it could be lower and still be realistic for all I care...

    I'm merely saying I DISLIKE the grens getting a fifth man, always has and always will..!!

    Ah yes, let's dislike the dude who are actually trying to discuss thing seriously...
    Seriously, so am I getting multiple dislikes IMMIDIATELY on a post which simply proposes a different way of going..?! I'm starting to feel a bit like @1ncendiary_Rounds here... If only This forum could have him back..! Hopefully his ban lifts soon....
  • #85
    1 year ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,058
    edited January 2018

    +1 Gren is great idea. It will fix durability problem. 4 Grens can't stand to US and UK core infantry. And there is no problem with their damage. They just get wiped to random and quikly.

    Yos, i habe no posted a year.

  • #86
    1 year ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,058

    And +1 to pioneers, so they could be like sappers.

  • #87
    1 year ago
    > @Pastulio said:
    > And +1 to pioneers, so they could be like sappers.

    But still significantly worse, because even 210mp units need the target size of panzer grens
  • #88
    1 year ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,058

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > @Pastulio said:
    > And +1 to pioneers, so they could be like sappers.

    But still significantly worse, because even 210mp units need the target size of panzer grens

    Something needs to be done to Ost durability.

  • #90
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited February 2018

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @vipper and RE get the same rec acc grens get at 3 when they get 2 (then 5th man at 3)

    They get the same % bonus number, but REs start at 1 and grens at .91 so grens still end up lower (REs final RA is .77, grens are about .7). If we lived in a world where that were true the 5th man idea would not be getting as much opposition from yours truly.

    On a side note anyone know if its even possible to apply explosive resistance to a squad? Do they have damage modifiers that differ depending on the type of weapon being used? Given that the KV-1 is the first unit (that I know of) with any kind of received damage modifier, I don't know if the flak jacket thing is even feasible.

Sign In or Register to comment.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

  • © SEGA. SEGA, the SEGA logo, Relic Entertainment, the Relic Entertainment logo, Company of Heroes and the Company of Heroes logo are either trademarks or registered trademarks of SEGA Holdings Co., Ltd. or its affiliates. All rights reserved. SEGA is registered in the US Patent and Trademark Office. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.