Spring Update Balance Discussion

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Comments

  • #32
    2 years ago
    Last point to avoid spam but what about evaluating some vet requirements on a lot of units for both factions. Hello Kubelwagon for example.
  • #33
    2 years ago

    very intresting changes although 50 cal nerf worries me a little but thats all i can tell

    damage increase to garrions by mortars is good atleast inexperienced players will have additional options to displacing units in garrisons

  • #35
    2 years ago

    Soviet sniper should receive a harder nerf because it has to be about 66% to 75% as efficient as the ostheer sniper for the same price, because of the axis few models/squad

  • #36
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    @ImperialDane said:
    This just seems like another tonedeaf patch that will be pushed through no matter what feedback actually says to be honest, so not sure why we are even getting a discussion post on this.

    That actually is something I can agree on.

    That being said, turbomortars WERE a cancer, regardless of who owned them.

  • #37
    2 years ago
    FelinewolfieFelinewol… Posts: 682
    edited April 2018

    The point of this patch... as far as I can tell... is Axis demanded allied nerfs, nerfs, nerfs.
    What they got was Allied nerf, axis nerf. With Relic/Dev's vision that game was balanced previously.
    (Win rates seemed about equal across the board)(But people demand... and so it went).

    • Mortar rebalance.

      • Apparently 1) Wehr mortar seen as overperforming. 2) Wehr complain USF mortar too mobile 3) USF
        complain pack howi was never used. 4) Mortars could wipe Sov sniper too easily.

      So they were all moved about, to sort of address everyone's concerns. Also, in 4vs4 glorious mortar
      spam is huge meta. So this approach does make sense.

      Note : I've noticed the Wehr mortar keeps the 30 min range.
      While everyone else's mortar (as far as I can tell) got their min
      range upped to 40. This should be interesting.

    • Sniper recalibrating : Homogeneisation.

      • Germans demanded nerf to Soviet sniper defensive (which was due to soviets having no on-field heals)
      • To compensate for nerf to durability, Soviet got buff to it's offense.
      • Making soviet sniper into a Wehr sniper clone would have been OP vs Wehr smaller squads.
      • So Wehr and Sov sniper ROF could normalized towards a middle ground. Improved sov ROF, but not
        so much that Wehr squads are decapitated.

      • UT and Kubel lost their anti-sniper roles, I think

      • Wehr sniper still comes out the winner in this reshuffle. However Sov sniper will now vet quicker.
        Remark : German demanded Sov sniper nerf, but had to give something in return.

    @Maximizer said:
    Soviet sniper should receive a harder nerf because it has to be about 66% to 75% as efficient as the ostheer sniper for the same price, because of the axis few models/squad

    If Soviet sniper was made any harder nerfed, it would get a strong
    discount, which would mean more snipers, which would make
    countersnipe and axis squad wipes even more of an issue.
    If no discount, then it would no longer be used, and removed.
    which would probably lead to all snipers removed.
    The trend is to homogeneisation. If you insist soviet sniper
    disappear, what do you think the homogeneisation of that is?

    • General TD nerfs :

      • Germans demanding allied TD nerfs. They got it, but all TDs got nerfed.
      • No point making Panther, StuG too good : Nerf StuG.
      • FF/Jackson too good : +2 Pop / StuG also gets +2 Pop.
      • Panther dies too fast to Allied TD fire : Beef up Panther health.
      • Reduce SU76 pen : Reduce Panther armor. Reduce Pz4Com armor aura.
      • Reducing Jackson's range : Removing Hull Down offensive bonuses.
        (Mind you, Jackson is only ranged nimble, turreted TD and it did get health buffs)

      • On nerfing the SU-85's sight being not needed. All TDs got nerfed. Except Puma
        who actually got a pop decrease and an anti sniper buff. So SU-85 may have not
        "needed a nerf" but as all TDs got a nerf, then it too needed a nerf. It did not get
        ROF, Armor, range, or pen nerfs. As such, please. Do consider yourself lucky.
        All it got is a QoL nerf.
        ****** CORRECTION! SU-85 got a pop nerf. From 12 to 15 +3 !!!!!! ***
        Just ouch, really ouch. Earlier got ROF nerf, and now this. Owww.

      • Remark : German demanded allied TD nerf, but had to give something in return.

      • 2nd Note : People say Jackson has 640 health. Doesn't it have 600 health ?

      Note on Panther armor Nerf :
      Real life Panther has 90' good armor, 270' paper armor. COH2 mechanics give only
      2 armors : Front and Rear. As a result, it makes sense to have it's armor, including it's
      rear armor to be reduced. People want it to be 100% invulnerable all the time, but
      that just wouldn't be balanced. It shedding some armor, at least, is actually historical
      and I will always be for that. The health buff more than makes up for it.
      It's more of a Premium tank than a TD now. Notice it got a ROF buff.

    OKW Panther reload from 6.1 - 6.4 to 5.2 - 5.6 (ROF BUFF!)

    • Someone said Wehr should just get 5x men Gren Squads.

      • Then you'd have 2 choices : Every faction gets +1 man for free also (ie: You gained nothing)
        or you lose bunker, early MG42, and so forth. ie: Welcome to OKW.

      • Or OKW and Wehr get melted into 1 single faction. You've now lost flag upgrades.

      Basically the rule is as follows : 2 choices : Big Infantry squads with no early MG.
      or Early MG, but smaller squads with bolt action rifles.

      Brits : 4 men, vickers (Like wehr). Bolt rifles
      Wehr: 4 men, MG42. Bolt rifles
      SOV : 6 men (weak. equiv of 4 men), Maxim (weakest MG)

      USF: 5 men (Garand), no early MG
      OKW: 5 men (STG44), no early MG

      If you want 5x men grenadier squads early on, you upset entire balance dynamic
      of strong support, weak infantry at start. And honestly, a lot of players are happy to
      spam bands of Grens

      Note : Grenadier 240/4 = 60/man reinforce 30. Reinforce from 1 30x3 = 90 manpower.
      Conscripts 240/6 = 40/man reinforce 20. Reinforce from 1 20x5 = 100 manpower.

      Grenadiers are actually most cost-efficient than conscripts.
      Also, 5x men grenadier squads would cost you more, which denies you the advantage you seek.
      (Also soviets have larger squads but no heal on field. Wehr has insane heals on field).

      • On British infantry nerfs and British Tank hunters :
    • British Tank Hunters : Make them like other factions : Strong AT, weak AI. They were a little of
      both (decent AI, good AT). PzGren-PShrek, Penal-AT have same issue. So this is homogeneisation.
    • On British infantry going 7-8 pop from 6-7 pop. Notice Gren and Cons also got pop up.
      German demanded something, they got it, but at a cost. Again. Which is fine. But worth mentioning.
    • Fuel up on squad bolster, racks, and UT. Ouch.
    • Bren now cost less, which is nice. But fine, esp in keeping with range acc nerf and rack up-cost.
      UT costing fuel AND losing half it's armor : Ouch. Really, ouch.

      What hurts me MOST is that British infantry lost it's + cap % speed bonus.
      That hurts BADLY. In contest that they have so little units to do anything.

      IL-2 loiter nerf... P47 loiter also nerfed. That... hurts. Especially in context that Axis
      have equivalent abilities which were - not - nerfed. But. We shall see.

      PzGrenadier buff : really nice. They feel more like USF Riflemen now (when they had the smoke 'nade)
      Pak40 : pop 8 to 7. Interesting.
      222 armor buffed and it FINALLY getting it's anti sniper buff.
      Overall, it looks like T2 was nicely buffed. Expect to see it more.

    @SquishyMuffin said:
    Last point to avoid spam but what about evaluating some vet requirements on a lot of units for both factions. Hello Kubelwagon for example.

    Kubel wagon seems to have lost it's anti sniper bonus.
    Same as UT. Pz2, Puma got it instead. 222 Finally got it too.
    In return, Kubel pop went from 4 to 3. Which is nice.

    ====================

    That's about it.
    Germans got what they wanted.
    But it cost them.

    As it should be.

    Although many were hoping for straight allied nerfs, axis buffs.
    Well, nothing is free.

    I can't wait for the Workshop pre-patch mod so we can test it out. Please tell us when.
    - I noticed the soviet demo pack buff was not included.

  • #38
    2 years ago
    TroydTroyd Posts: 24
    edited April 2018

    @Andy_RE

    Just wanted to communicate a sense of appreciation to the developers giving their time to support Company of Heroes 2.

    To me this represents a recognition that balancing a game is an iterative process. Given the number of variables that exist, I would say that the task here is ambitious, to say the least.

    I do not envy the amount of bullshit that must be waded through and weighing of decisions made to produce such updates.

    I sincerely thank the developers working on this and the roughly 4 month intervals between each update for a game I truly love.

  • #39
    2 years ago
    FelinewolfieFelinewol… Posts: 682
    edited April 2018

    @Troyd said:
    @Andy_RE

    Just wanted to communicate a sense of appreciation to the developers giving their time to support Company of Heroes 2.

    To me this represents a recognition that balancing a game is an iterative process. Given the number of variables that exist, I would say that the task here is ambitious, to say the least.

    I do not envy the amount of bullshit that must be waded through and weighing of decisions made to produce such updates.

    I sincerely thank the developers working on this and the roughly 4 month intervals between each update for a game I truly love.

    ==================

    I oh, so agree. I do NOT envy Devs. The amount of salt the community can pour out is impressive.
    I noticed the amount of gymnastics they went through to both give the German masses what they demanded
    ... while rebalancing everything to accomodate the balance.

    Yea, the trend is towards homogeneisation, but that's to be expected.
    Most people just don't seem to like assymetric balance. I've said it for a long time, now.
    The only way everything is going to be balanced is with mirror stats balance. - And nobody wants that. Sigh. Impossible task if you ask me.

    I tip my hat to the devs for the work they've done.
    For being able to do this without going completely insane, I have no idea.

    At the very least, for keeping COH2 fresh, that we may continually rediscover it :)

  • #40
    2 years ago
    ReichsgardeReichsgar… Bad Tolz, Bayern, GermanyPosts: 121

    Greetings everyone (it is great to return to this community since the DBP discussions),

    I agree with @ImperialDane on the matter concerning StuG III G. Its only saving grace was its rate of fire. Removing this core strength from the vehicle will make the assault gun a dubious proposition at best. If you also consider that its pop cost will rise to 10, this makes even less sense as the vehicle is getting nerfed. To the devs (@Mr_Smith et al.) I would like to ask, what are you doing about the SU-76M? Are you nerfing it equally by increasing its pop cost and reducing its rate of fire? In my opinion, there is no need for any changes to the StuG. It is already in a decent place as it is.

    As aforementioned several times, the OKW/WM Panther is not in "its best spot". Nerfing its frontal armour (rear armour nerfs are fine I guess) is not a good idea as the vehicle needs as much protection as it can get to compensate for its slow rate of fire. What the current Panther requires is either a damage boost (160 to 180 to reflect its historically fast muzzle velocity) or a more significant boost to its rate of fire (something between 4 sec and 5 sec range at Vet 0). Furthermore, the Panther should get a pop cost reduction so that it costs 16 points instead of 18.

    OKW Jagdpanzer IV costing 15 pop points seems quite excessive in my view. It is a good tank destroyer but not so good to the point that it costs that many pop points. Producing a single Jagdpanzer IV will limit an OKW player's ability to synthesize his/her army with other units as the max pop limit is 100. I believe that the JgPz IV should cost 12 pop instead given the fact that it is a turretless vehicle with limited capabilities. If I understand correctly, the JgPz IV is supposed to be the "poor man's" Panzer IV.

    Kubelwagen needs to be revised in order to remain relevant till the late-game. As of now, the Kubelwagen is so weak and fragile that it gets vaporized in an instant. What this vehicle needs is a form of camouflage ability and possible upgrade paths that will allow OKW to use the Kubelwagen as a utility vehicle. For instance, an ambulance vehicle, a command aura vehicle, or a reinforcement vehicle. As always, I am always in favour of making EVERY unit in the game useful no matter what stage of the game the player is in.

    I have a few more points to make but I will make them as this patch process unfolds. I concur with @Troyd that it is heartening to see the community and devs still patching this game. However, what would be even better would be is that if the patchers pay close attention to what is being mentioned here in this thread. Some people here are actually spending a good chunk of their busy lives to make constructive criticisms and insightful comments.

  • #41
    2 years ago
    FelinewolfieFelinewol… Posts: 682
    edited April 2018

    @Reichsgarde said:
    Greetings everyone (it is great to return to this community since the DBP discussions),

    I agree with @ImperialDane on the matter concerning StuG III G. Its only saving grace was its rate of fire. Removing this core strength from the vehicle will make the assault gun a dubious proposition at best. If you also consider that its pop cost will rise to 10, this makes even less sense as the vehicle is getting nerfed. To the devs (@Mr_Smith et al.) I would like to ask, what are you doing about the SU-76M? Are you nerfing it equally by increasing its pop cost and reducing its rate of fire? In my opinion, there is no need for any changes to the StuG. It is already in a decent place as it is.

    • All TDs got a nerf. All of them. (except Puma)

      • SU76 got a Pen nerf. It has lowest armor/health of all TDs
      • Jackson got +2 pop -5 Range.
      • StuIIIG got +2 pop -ROF (Was already high, gets it back at vet 1, I believe)(Notice PzShreks got a nice buff).
      • JgPz4 got lightest nerf : +1 pop
      • FF got +2 pop. Ouch!
      • SU85 got a QoL nerf, along with SU76 pen nerf.

      Allies also did not believe they were warranted a TD nerf. As a result, everyone got a TD nerf.
      Also note in context that PzGren PzShrek got buffed.

    As aforementioned several times, the OKW/WM Panther is not in "its best spot". Nerfing its frontal armour (rear armour nerfs are fine I guess) is not a good idea as the vehicle needs as much protection as it can get to compensate for its slow rate of fire. What the current Panther requires is either a damage boost (160 to 180 to reflect its historically fast muzzle velocity) or a more significant boost to its rate of fire (something between 4 sec and 5 sec range at Vet 0). Furthermore, the Panther should get a pop cost reduction so that it costs 16 points instead of 18.

    Panther got a health buff and an accuracy buff. In light of TDs globally getting a nerf, it can now absorb an extra
    hit, which isn't bad at all. The armor nerf went with the SU76 pen nerf. The armor reduction is to rebalance it in
    light of there being less TD presence to deal with it. So it needs to be more vulnerable.

    Also, it's armor is nearly double what it historically is. Front armor values are DOUBLE what it was in reality
    (180' instead of 90') and Rear armor (180' instead of 270' paper thin armor). So that was normalized and is
    more historical.

    OKW Panther reload from 6.1 - 6.4 to 5.2 - 5.6
    Panther got a ROF Buff!!! :)

    OKW Jagdpanzer IV costing 15 pop points seems quite excessive in my view. It is a good tank destroyer but not so good to the point that it costs that many pop points. Producing a single Jagdpanzer IV will limit an OKW player's ability to synthesize his/her army with other units as the max pop limit is 100. I believe that the JgPz IV should cost 12 pop instead given the fact that it is a turretless vehicle with limited capabilities. If I understand correctly, the JgPz IV is supposed to be the "poor man's" Panzer IV.

    This comes from requests for allied TDs being nerfed. It got +1 pop instead of +2 pop. Not bad.

    Kubelwagen needs to be revised in order to remain relevant till the late-game. As of now, the Kubelwagen is so weak and fragile that it gets vaporized in an instant. What this vehicle needs is a form of camouflage ability and possible upgrade paths that will allow OKW to use the Kubelwagen as a utility vehicle. For instance, an ambulance vehicle, a command aura vehicle, or a reinforcement vehicle. As always, I am always in favour of making EVERY unit in the game useful no matter what stage of the game the player is in.

    • British UT was nerfed. (fuel/flame) lost it's sniper buff. Now costs fuel.
    • Soviet Scout car lost it's sniper buff
    • OKW gained faster Pz2 / Puma - Puma is only TD not nerfed. Both got anti sniper buff.
      I believe mechanized also costs -5 fuel.
      Kubel also went from 4 pop to 3 pop. Actually not bad.
      Also consider that british infantry lost their -25% cap speed buff. So Kubel is anything but useless.

    I have a few more points to make but I will make them as this patch process unfolds. I concur with @Troyd that it is heartening to see the community and devs still patching this game. However, what would be even better would be is that if the patchers pay close attention to what is being mentioned here in this thread. Some people here are actually spending a good chunk of their busy lives to make constructive criticisms and insightful comments.

    • It's not just that some German units were nerfed, but what was gained in exchange for such.
      You have to look at both sides of the fence, and consider the greater picture. And adapt.

    • Also notice Pak40 is now -1 pop. (In context with StuIIIG nerf)

    If anything, it'll be an interesting change.
    I for one am glad the dev didn't just do a straight buff one faction, nerf the other faction.

    Some people dislike change. Some learn to adapt.

    Crossing fingers Can't wait to try the mod/pre-patch.

    PS:

    • I am sad the modder's fuel/muni cache incremental upcost wasn't kept (+50 manpower per +1 player)
      (200 manpower at 1vs1)(250 at 2vs2, 350 at 4vs4).

    • I don't mind SU76 having, say, 35 muni cost for barrage. I saw it in earlier pre-patch mod, and it wasn't bad.
      Zis-3 has muni cost for it's barrage, so why not?

  • #42
    2 years ago
    Vickers HMG now needs a massive damage nerf, after the suppression buff.
  • #43
    2 years ago

    @Widerstreit said:
    Vickers HMG now needs a massive damage nerf, after the suppression buff.

    Vickers HMG
    The Vickers is receiving a slight cost reduction to promote diverse build openings; suppression bonuses at veterancy have also been added to help this unit scale into the late game.
    • Cost reduced to 260
    • Build time increased by 4 seconds
    • Vet 2 now provides a 20% bonus to suppression
    • Vet 1 garrisoned range and sight bonus reduced from +25% to +15%

    Vickers got a range/sight nerf. That's basically a damage nerf.
    Also their infantry and UT and AT Gun and Mortars just got a nerf.
    AEC3 threadshot got a nerf.
    - Brits got a -25% to their capping speed.
    - Dual Bren got nerfed.
    - Brit AT Infantry got nerfed

    Do you want everything British nerfed unto unplayability?

  • #44
    2 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited April 2018

    WOW I just can't believe the nerfs the Stug is getting. First the TWP is next to useless after it's insane load time and the damage nerf, now it's getting a massive 1.5 seconds reload increase AND pop cap from 8 to 10?! Where's the SU 76 pop increase!? The t3476 (with also costs 10 pop and roughly same resource cost) is far more cost effective now since it can engage both inf and armor and the Stug isn't even that good at engaging armor now after this insane nerf. How much of an advantage does it have over allied mediums now? The Balance team is pulling this stuff out their ass. Imperial Dane nailed it in his post. Just read what the balance team said about Stugs. It sounds like stuff coming from someone whose never touched a CoH2 stug. In CoH1, it regularly bounces Sherman shots and sometimes at guns. Not the case in CoH2. And the fact that StuGs are great in numbers?! THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE GREAT IN NUMBERS? So Ost is not allowed to spam Stugs while SU can spam their cheap t3476 all day without receiving a massive nerf bat? Ost is a faction of specialists. So units should be able to overperform IN CERTAIN (IE. PERFECT) CONDITIONS. For example, in a completely open map where the flanks are safe and something is giving the Stugs 50 vision, a pair well microed Stugs can fend off 3 allied mediums and "overperform" the allied tanks. In conditions that are less than ideal, the Stugs performance is in the toilet. They are easily flanked by any allied medium. AT guns shred Stugs. Try flanking an Su76 with a p4, you'll notice it's much harder: the su has a faster turret rotation and slightly better acceleration than a stug. You have to be really on the ball with the p4. So Relic and/or the balance team is mad that Ost players are trying to pick out the best conditions for their specialist units to succeed in. That is the summary of the reason for the over the top StuG nerfs.

    Of course how can I forget to mention the further butchering of Ostheer tier 4. Panther going from 320 to 260 is a massive nerf especially after all allied TDs are buffed to counter the KT. Giving in an extra shot of health AND increasing the cost for Ost is not a fair trade. Increasing the far accuracy by 0.005? I'd like to see how much of an actual buff that is in a video. I highly doubt it'll amount to much. A 10% armor vet 2 turns 260 to 286 - a far cry from 320.

    Speaking of Stugs and panthers, the command p4 should not be receiving ANY nerfs. Just look at the language:

    Command Panzer 4
    We are reducing the bonuses of the Command Panzer IV’s aura to decrease its potency around units such as the Stug G and Panther that are either incredibly cost effective with increased durability or have high durability to begin with.
    • Damage reduction lowered from 20% to 10%

    INCREDIBLY COST EFFECTIVE?! Even AFTER the crazy nerfs to the Stug?!

    The Stun grenades are now nerfed to the ground. From 40 to 5 dmg? Might as well make it zero. Why does Ostheer always get these DRASTIC nerfs. Why not make it from 40 to 20 at least? The stun grenade is a great grenade but for 20 munis, a grenade that only stuns for 3 secs and does basically no damage? How much damage can some grens do in 3 seconds? You'd rather pay 30 for a real close range grenade. And grens getting their pop cap reverted to 7 without getting similar vet 1 treatment that cons get?

    I do like the changes to the pgrens. I originally asked for a pop cap reduction, but I guess the smoke will do. I think the shrecks have gotten a bit too cheap. However I love the accuracy buff as schrecks really need to hit due to the slower RoF. I hope OKW schrecks also get the same accuracy.

    Not sure about the ppsh changes. It might make cons in an awkward spot. Yes, ppsh cons can be very frightening if spammed but I think they wouldn't be good enough if they only get 2. I think a price increase to 70 munis (and even a small buff) is probably what is needed instead. Then the SU player will need to think instead of just slapping them on every squad.

    Meanwhile the Jackson is simply getting slap on the wrist compared to all the Stug and panther nerfs. Typical. Just TYPICAL.

    I think the Stug just needs a slight pen nerf or give it the same armor as p4. And pop cap increase to 9 not 10.

    I still do believe that many changes are good, but seriously, Relic/balance team is very bewildered with what they want to do with Ostheer.

  • #45
    2 years ago

    @ImperialDane said:

    This just seems like another tonedeaf patch that will be pushed through no matter what feedback actually says to be honest, so not sure why we are even getting a discussion post on this.

    My thoughts exactly, the discussion in the forums for the past two years has all been for show. Relic and/or the balance team just do whatever they want.

  • #46
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681
    edited April 2018

    @Widerstreit said:
    Vickers HMG now needs a massive damage nerf, after the suppression buff.

    Higher suppression = lower dps, because suppressed squads take less damage.

    HMG42 got massive suppression and almost equally high dps, are you up for nerfing HMG42 DPS as well?

  • #47
    2 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    edited April 2018
    @Felinewolfie Yes, Vickers HMG should be a maxim clone. E. g. also Mg42 needs a nerf. But easiest way would be to change it with Mg34.

    @Katitof There is no suppression versus units in green cover and garrisons. The Vickers is simply op. I have no prob to fight against it, but all the time I get it as Beutewaffe I get 30 kills or higher. In comparison the kill ratio is more as 3 times higher as a 'normal' mg in my hands.
  • #48
    2 years ago
    pioneerspampioneersp… Posts: 12
    edited April 2018

    What is the purpose of the PPSh package anymore?Granted they are only what, 40 or 45 mun, getting only 2 subguns is a bit underwhelming, isnt it? You should rather nerf the con ppsh and give it to more squad members or maybe grant them 2-4 SVTs instead or give them other bonusses like volks get. And while hit the dirt certainly has its uses it does not compliment the PPSh which is meant for assault and movement.

    A change i wanted to cover since it seems to not have been talked about as much as the others.

  • #49
    2 years ago
    AchlenAchlen Posts: 13
    Is nobody going to mention the subpar performance of maxim? I've seen plenty of times volks run straight up to it and thrown a nade without getting supressed or pinned.
  • #50
    2 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    edited April 2018
    @pioneerspam It doesn't change much. 2 good mps or 3 bad mps... the upgrade still worth it.

    @Achlen The Flamegrenade doesn't worth much. The Maxim counters the Mg42 in direct battle, holding the front is the work of Conscripts.
  • #51
    2 years ago

    @Widerstreit said:
    @pioneerspam It doesn't change much. 2 good mps or 3 bad mps... the upgrade still worth it.

    @Achlen The Flamegrenade doesn't worth much. The Maxim counters the Mg42 in direct battle, holding the front is the work of Conscripts.

    Maxims and MG42 are not meant to fight each other and whoever was set up first will win the engagement

    On the PPSh i do not think 2 are enough to bring a good boost in firepower unless you'd buff them to volk StG levels.

  • #52
    2 years ago
    mrdjjag81mrdjjag81 Posts: 306

    @CartoonVillain said:
    OKW
    Volksgrenadiers
    Flame Grenade
    • Now requires any completed HQ building

    What is the point of this???
    Wasn't this change added and reverted several times now? Why are they bringing it back? It's not only taking away from OKW's already crap ability to deal with early garrisons, but it also forces people even more to go for the med HQ since you always want flame nades ASAP.

    First of all, they need no research for some odd reason (could at least have been boundle with the weapon upgrade, but nope). Second, both Vickers and Maxim got crap suppress, mostly becouse they could be build right from the start i guess. So flanking, use green cover and a bit of micro and it wont be a problem at all.

  • #53
    2 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    edited April 2018
    @pioneerspam Maxim will win all the time. It will pin the Mg42, it will stop shooting. Test it by your own... even green cover versus green cover is a clear win for Maxim.

    Nobody needs suppression, if you can simply kill the enemy. Let your meat shield work for you, cons. Suppression is for freeze an attack, it will not prevent the next engagement. Maxim, Vickers will let you bleed. Way more useful.
  • #54
    2 years ago

    As a predominately Wehrmacht player the biggest things that I've noticed are extremely hard to counter or beat are

    1. Allied indirect fire
      The Wehrmacht have no real similar piece to this except the Panzerwerffer but that comes out really late compared to the Allied counter parts.

      1. The British Centaur
        With the scatter reduction and less cost for the Panzershrecks this might no longer be a real issue. But its insane on this patch how early the Centaur can hit the field and wipe squads so easily with 0 micro.

      2. Panther's low damage
        The Panther's cost would be fine and the armor reduction could work so long as there was a raw damage buff to the Panther. Right now it can easily take 3 or 4 shots to destroy a Sherman or a Firefly or a T74 and more to destroy the heavier tanks. This makes it impossible late game to really fight the Allied heavy Tanks as the Panther is the only non-doctrine specific tank that the is heavy enough to be viable late game. Panzer 4s are just too fragile when dealing with Fireflys or anything else really.

      3. Massive allied squads
        Even with the less armor the Allies get, their 5 or 6 man squads are just too much to kill unless you get a lucky hit with a mortar. Which is why I'm not really a fan of Nerfing the firerate of the Wehrmacht mortar. Especially when the Allied mortars can so much more easily wipe a Wehrmacht or OKW squad in one hit due to their higher damage and the smaller squad sizes of the German Factions.

      4. Soviet Shock Troops
        I don't like that this squad is still so cost effective. Seriously, they can beat a Panzergren squad and a volks together and it doesn't help that the Anti inf output of the Panzergrens is halved once they are upgraded to with AT and the Panzergrens are so expensive its hard to have more than 1 by the time the Allies start getting into real tanks.

    As for Wehrmacht units that seem to be overperforming, I can't really even think of one. Maybe the MG42 but this seems to just help in shoring up the short comings of the other units in the Wehrmacht roster.

    Stugs are also still terrible. They are decently cost effective but no where near as good as similarly priced allied Tank Destroyers like the Jackson. The best way to use Stugs is 3 together and sacrifice one to kill an Allied Tank and thats a really dumb way to have it work.

  • #55
    2 years ago

    @Dovahkiin said:
    As a predominately Wehrmacht player the biggest things that I've noticed are extremely hard to counter or beat are

    1. Allied indirect fire
      The Wehrmacht have no real similar piece to this except the Panzerwerffer but that comes out really late compared to the Allied counter parts.

      1. The British Centaur
        With the scatter reduction and less cost for the Panzershrecks this might no longer be a real issue. But its insane on this patch how early the Centaur can hit the field and wipe squads so easily with 0 micro.

      2. Panther's low damage
        The Panther's cost would be fine and the armor reduction could work so long as there was a raw damage buff to the Panther. Right now it can easily take 3 or 4 shots to destroy a Sherman or a Firefly or a T74 and more to destroy the heavier tanks. This makes it impossible late game to really fight the Allied heavy Tanks as the Panther is the only non-doctrine specific tank that the is heavy enough to be viable late game. Panzer 4s are just too fragile when dealing with Fireflys or anything else really.

      3. Massive allied squads
        Even with the less armor the Allies get, their 5 or 6 man squads are just too much to kill unless you get a lucky hit with a mortar. Which is why I'm not really a fan of Nerfing the firerate of the Wehrmacht mortar. Especially when the Allied mortars can so much more easily wipe a Wehrmacht or OKW squad in one hit due to their higher damage and the smaller squad sizes of the German Factions.

      4. Soviet Shock Troops
        I don't like that this squad is still so cost effective. Seriously, they can beat a Panzergren squad and a volks together and it doesn't help that the Anti inf output of the Panzergrens is halved once they are upgraded to with AT and the Panzergrens are so expensive its hard to have more than 1 by the time the Allies start getting into real tanks.

    As for Wehrmacht units that seem to be overperforming, I can't really even think of one. Maybe the MG42 but this seems to just help in shoring up the short comings of the other units in the Wehrmacht roster.

    Stugs are also still terrible. They are decently cost effective but no where near as good as similarly priced allied Tank Destroyers like the Jackson. The best way to use Stugs is 3 together and sacrifice one to kill an Allied Tank and thats a really dumb way to have it work.

    Well,let's see:

    1.The only allied faction that has stock rocket artillary are the soviets. USf only get mid range light howizers at best, the british are even worse off (will see how the mortar pit changes affect them)

    2.I always felt the centaur was inconsistent, overall id say its better than the ostwind at the same job but not as reliable as a cromwell.

    3.Agreed,the Panther doesnt need more health and armor,it should rather be able to deal damage.

    4.Depends. Brits start out with 4 men squads and USF 5 men rifles and 4 men REs are not that biug either, it's soviets alone that have such big squads but make up for it with lower survivability in gunfights. Do not forget OKW also has 5 men core infantry.
    Personally i liked how Osttruppen get buffed with Battle phase 3, a bolster for grenadiers at that tier would be an interesting change.

    5.Shocktroops are terrible at long and even medium range (Conscript PPShsare more accurate at medium range last time i checked) and can't do much against vehicles either.they are NOT cost effective or interesting units that are easily overshadowed by penals or PPSh cons.The fact they beat panzergrenadiers at close range has to do with their body armor and high accuracy at SHORT range.If you let them close in you deserve the punishment just like a brit player deserves the damage when he lets Pgrens or Sturms close in.

    6.Sort of agreed. Ican't think of any neccessarily OP unit for OST.Thier crew weapons are strong but thats all they got going for them, i would love to see more overhauls to abilities and vet 1 stuff for ost like the soviets got.

    7.Stugs are WAY cheaper than the jackson or Firefly,a better comparison is the Su-76.the StuG is a budget tank killer with low armor and a decent gun.I don't agree with the RoF nerf.

  • #56
    2 years ago
    TroydTroyd Posts: 24

    @Dovahkiin said:

    As a predominately Wehrmacht player the biggest things that I've noticed are extremely hard to counter or beat are

    >

    I also am a predominantly wehrmacht player and would like to provide some counter points, as I do not share your sentiment.

    1. Allied indirect fire
      The Wehrmacht have no real similar piece to this except the Panzerwerffer but that comes out really late compared to the Allied counter parts.

    I don't agree, in DBP ( current meta) the wehrmacht mortar is the best stock mortar in the game. Double ostheer mortars are extremely potent from early to late game. It very much needs a rof (Slight) nerf.

    Werfers also come out very quickly, given their cheap fuel cost, usually 12-15 mins or so in a 2v2. In 1v1 you probalby don't want to rush one anyway, and instead get a p4.

    1. The British Centaur
      With the scatter reduction and less cost for the Panzershrecks this might no longer be a real issue. But its insane on this patch how early the Centaur can hit the field and wipe squads so easily with 0 micro.

    The centaur is a squad wiping machine right now. A particular potent british 2v2 build includes 2 centaurs and multiple AT guns backing them up. Against OKW you would be silly not not sure a centaur, given it can wipe raktens very easily and the only true hard counters are the JP4 and panther which come out much later.

    1. Panther's low damage
      The Panther's cost would be fine and the armor reduction could work so long as there was a raw damage buff to the Panther. Right now it can easily take 3 or 4 shots to destroy a Sherman or a Firefly or a T74 and more to destroy the heavier tanks. This makes it impossible late game to really fight the Allied heavy Tanks as the Panther is the only non-doctrine specific tank that the is heavy enough to be viable late game. Panzer 4s are just too fragile when dealing with Fireflys or anything else really.

    While I agree the panther damage output is low, we need to avoid regressing to the old patches where it was an unstoppable killing machine. The proposed changes largely address the dps concerns.

    The panther armor reduction and increased health makes it more consistent. Right now I don't know whether my panther can take 7 hits, or 4 hits given its low health and high armor. I would rather know it can take x hits before I need to gtfo, not roll a die on it.

    I'm actually confused why you consider panthers viable at all late game in the current patch given your statements.

    1. Massive allied squads
      Even with the less armor the Allies get, their 5 or 6 man squads are just too much to kill unless you get a lucky hit with a mortar. Which is why I'm not really a fan of Nerfing the firerate of the Wehrmacht mortar. Especially when the Allied mortars can so much more easily wipe a Wehrmacht or OKW squad in one hit due to their higher damage and the smaller squad sizes of the German Factions.

    >

    Allied squads sizes aren't really an issue at the moment. They suffer from increased suppression modifiers and lower health per model means more wipes per mortar shot. All things whermacht is designed to exploit through team weapons/aoe things, making it the best faction for infantry control.

    Brumbars/P4s/werfs/mortars are extremely efficient at killing squads if you want just rawa power. But the real syenrgy is with suppresion & the above.

    1. Soviet Shock Troops
      I don't like that this squad is still so cost effective. Seriously, they can beat a Panzergren squad and a volks together and it doesn't help that the Anti inf output of the Panzergrens is halved once they are upgraded to with AT and the Panzergrens are so expensive its hard to have more than 1 by the time the Allies start getting into real tanks.

    SOviet shocks are one trick ponies. Close range in your faces troops. You shoudln't be letting them get on top of you. If they are ontop of you, just retreat. Suppression keeps them from closing range and a simple grenade is enough to make them move; thus reducing damage output and given you time to retreat.

    As for Wehrmacht units that seem to be overperforming, I can't really even think of one. Maybe the MG42 but this seems to just help in shoring up the short comings of the other units in the Wehrmacht roster.

    MG42 is extremly good, expecailly in terms of suppresion - which it is the best at of all MGs. This unit synergized with mortars or brumbars is the very reason wehrmact excels at infantry control.

    Stugs are also still terrible. They are decently cost effective but no where near as good as similarly priced allied Tank Destroyers like the Jackson. The best way to use Stugs is 3 together and sacrifice one to kill an Allied Tank and thats a really dumb way to have it work.

    Stugs currently are one of the most efficent tanks in the game. They will straight up solo fireflies or jackson using their rog vet bonsues. In pairs they will decimate any tank and even if one dies, you still come out on top by at least 30-40 fuel.

  • #57
    2 years ago

    @pioneerspam said:

    @Dovahkiin said:
    As a predominately Wehrmacht player the biggest things that I've noticed are extremely hard to counter or beat are

    1. Allied indirect fire
      The Wehrmacht have no real similar piece to this except the Panzerwerffer but that comes out really late compared to the Allied counter parts.

      1. The British Centaur
        With the scatter reduction and less cost for the Panzershrecks this might no longer be a real issue. But its insane on this patch how early the Centaur can hit the field and wipe squads so easily with 0 micro.

      2. Panther's low damage
        The Panther's cost would be fine and the armor reduction could work so long as there was a raw damage buff to the Panther. Right now it can easily take 3 or 4 shots to destroy a Sherman or a Firefly or a T74 and more to destroy the heavier tanks. This makes it impossible late game to really fight the Allied heavy Tanks as the Panther is the only non-doctrine specific tank that the is heavy enough to be viable late game. Panzer 4s are just too fragile when dealing with Fireflys or anything else really.

      3. Massive allied squads
        Even with the less armor the Allies get, their 5 or 6 man squads are just too much to kill unless you get a lucky hit with a mortar. Which is why I'm not really a fan of Nerfing the firerate of the Wehrmacht mortar. Especially when the Allied mortars can so much more easily wipe a Wehrmacht or OKW squad in one hit due to their higher damage and the smaller squad sizes of the German Factions.

      4. Soviet Shock Troops
        I don't like that this squad is still so cost effective. Seriously, they can beat a Panzergren squad and a volks together and it doesn't help that the Anti inf output of the Panzergrens is halved once they are upgraded to with AT and the Panzergrens are so expensive its hard to have more than 1 by the time the Allies start getting into real tanks.

    As for Wehrmacht units that seem to be overperforming, I can't really even think of one. Maybe the MG42 but this seems to just help in shoring up the short comings of the other units in the Wehrmacht roster.

    Stugs are also still terrible. They are decently cost effective but no where near as good as similarly priced allied Tank Destroyers like the Jackson. The best way to use Stugs is 3 together and sacrifice one to kill an Allied Tank and thats a really dumb way to have it work.

    Well,let's see:

    1.The only allied faction that has stock rocket artillary are the soviets. USf only get mid range light howizers at best, the british are even worse off (will see how the mortar pit changes affect them)

    2.I always felt the centaur was inconsistent, overall id say its better than the ostwind at the same job but not as reliable as a cromwell.

    3.Agreed,the Panther doesnt need more health and armor,it should rather be able to deal damage.

    4.Depends. Brits start out with 4 men squads and USF 5 men rifles and 4 men REs are not that biug either, it's soviets alone that have such big squads but make up for it with lower survivability in gunfights. Do not forget OKW also has 5 men core infantry.
    Personally i liked how Osttruppen get buffed with Battle phase 3, a bolster for grenadiers at that tier would be an interesting change.

    5.Shocktroops are terrible at long and even medium range (Conscript PPShsare more accurate at medium range last time i checked) and can't do much against vehicles either.they are NOT cost effective or interesting units that are easily overshadowed by penals or PPSh cons.The fact they beat panzergrenadiers at close range has to do with their body armor and high accuracy at SHORT range.If you let them close in you deserve the punishment just like a brit player deserves the damage when he lets Pgrens or Sturms close in.

    6.Sort of agreed. Ican't think of any neccessarily OP unit for OST.Thier crew weapons are strong but thats all they got going for them, i would love to see more overhauls to abilities and vet 1 stuff for ost like the soviets got.

    7.Stugs are WAY cheaper than the jackson or Firefly,a better comparison is the Su-76.the StuG is a budget tank killer with low armor and a decent gun.I don't agree with the RoF nerf.

    The first point is that the Wehrmacht get none. The Americans have their Howitzers, the British their Base Howitzers, and the Soviets get their AT gun. The Wehrmacht get nothing of the sort.

    1. A Phase 3 buff for Volks would be great as they really fall off later game which leaves a lack of cheap Anti inf for the Wehrmacht.

    2. The Shock troops aren't a big deal and yea they do suck at Range but I still think they over perform at close range. They aren't game breakingly over performing but enough where its notable and the main reason I list it is because of how easy it is for Soviets to use molotovs to force the retreat of MGs which then leaves very little defense against the Shock Troops.

    3. Stugs are cheaper. But not way cheaper. The Jackson is 350 MP and 125 fuel to the Stugs 280 MP and 90 Fuel cost. But the Jackson is far superior and any nerfing to the Stug or Pop cap increase makes it so much less describable. A better decision would be to slightly buff the Stug and slightly increase the cost. It already is the only Tank Destroyer that is available to the Wehrmacht so it being inferior is very painful.

    Also it is almost Identical in cost to the SU76 (280 MP and 85 Fuel) but the SU76 also gets the barrage ability and I believe has slightly better range while similar in health and damage. The Stug is a little better at Anti Inf but the Soviets also have the SU85 which is pretty good, with good health, armor, damage and better range than really any Wehrmacht tank.

  • #58
    2 years ago
    firestonefirestone Posts: 1
    edited April 2018

    usf is now a very strange faction. The rifleman's smoke grenades have been removed, but the grenade upgrade cost has not been lowered, Rifleman performance, which is the backbone of usf, is not very good for price. And the 222 performance and price have been getting a huge buzz, so what's the usf utility car? The price of 222 is 200/30, and the utility car is 320/20. Why is man power 120 different? Now 222 is good enough, but the price drops even if you get the buff. So why does not a utility car that does not win 222 get a buff?
    And Pershing is only produced by only one unit, only the Heavy Cavally unit is produced, but the hp is lower than the price is more expensive. And Pershing can not get off the crew, which is the advantage of usf. Pershing is a heavy-tank, but it's only 800 hp. But why is Panther, a medium-sized tank, hp is 960? It is doubtful whether pershing can now beat the Panther by shortening the time to reload the Panther main gun. Did you forget the presence of Pershing? If pershing is lower than the present price and the one limit is lost, it does not matter, but pershing is more expensive than the price.
    And I think Thunderbolt rocket attacks are still not so much, but if you reduce the damage, what is Airborne's existence? There are many other Axis skills that are better and cheaper than Thunderbolt. Why do you nudge Thunderbolt? Thunderbolt A rocket attack is a skill that attacks only tanks within a specified range. It does not touch infantry.
    The utility car price has to be lowered and the rifleman has to lower the price and recruiting costs or boost performance. And Pershing should lower the price or raise the stamina. The cost of grenade upgrades should also be lowered, and the calliope needs to be adjusted. And the Stuart Light Tank is too bad for the infantry.

  • #59
    2 years ago
    FarlionFarlion Posts: 21

    @firestone said:
    Rifleman performance, which is the backbone of usf, is not very good for price.

    What? :D:D

    Vetted Riflemen with BARs are the gold standard of all Coh2 infantry.

  • #60
    2 years ago
    big_tigerbig_tiger Posts: 20
    edited April 2018

    So much for "better frontal protection than a Tiger"
    I really don't think the armor and HP changes on the Panther are smart, the last thing it needs is longer repair times.
    I do like the super low 90 rear armor though, it goes well with the Panther's high speed

    Stug reload change is a big ?? especially considering its just going to get dumpstered by SU-76. Reload is all it has going for it as an AT platform since critical shot is now useless

    Brummbar attack nerf is also pretty ?? I don't see how it squad wiping is an issue when grens get wiped all the time, and squad wiping is its niche. Barrage scatter increase is probably fine considering how tight it is currently.

    PPSH nerf is questionable considering the pop cap increase for cons. I would sooner see the cost increased, Soviets need the muni sink anyways

    I don't like Volks flame nades being delayed even more - let them be the strong early game german faction.

    Disagree with BOIS losing kit upgrades, everything about them from the name to their unit icon suggests they SHOULD get kit upgrades.

    Might have to consider dropping the pop on the .50 cal from 7 to 6 with the nerf and removal of sprint.

    Who thought Sturm/AVRE needed to be worse????

  • #61
    2 years ago
    FelinewolfieFelinewol… Posts: 682
    edited April 2018

    @Dovahkiin said:
    7. Stugs are cheaper. But not way cheaper. The Jackson is 350 MP and 125 fuel to the Stugs 280 MP and 90 Fuel cost. But the Jackson is far superior and any nerfing to the Stug or Pop cap increase makes it so much less describable. A better decision would be to slightly buff the Stug and slightly increase the cost. It already is the only Tank Destroyer that is available to the Wehrmacht so it being inferior is very painful.

    • Jackson is 400 manpower, 145 fu, 16 pop and range 55.

      • Jackson used to do 200 dmg, now nerfed to 160 dmg.
      • Only non-doctrinal TD that USF has.
      • StuG is 280 manpower, 90 fu, 10 pop and range 55.
      • Stug has stun shot.
      • StuG has better armor (esp w Pz4C and Hulldown)
      • StuG had better ROF AND Range than Jackson w Hulldown.
      • Could have two StuG per Jackson (due to pop) :)
        (8 pop vs 16 pop). Do you still ask why StuG pop was increased?
    • PS: Jackson used to have 480 health, too.

      • Panther is also a Tank destroyer, and it now can take an extra shot. Also got acc and ROF Buff.
      • If USF has M10, then Wehr has Elefant, and Puma.
      • PzShrek just got buffed.

      Germans wanted Jackson nerfed. All they needed was to have their own TDs nerfed as well.

    Also it is almost Identical in cost to the SU76 (280 MP and 85 Fuel) but the SU76 also gets the barrage ability and I believe has slightly better range while similar in health and damage. The Stug is a little better at Anti Inf but the Soviets also have the SU85 which is pretty good, with good health, armor, damage and better range than really any Wehrmacht tank.

    • SU76 pen got lowered.
    • StuG wins any duel with SU76.
    • StuG has 480 life. Does 160 dmg. Has higher ROF has more armor. Has an MG.
      has command pz4. Has Hull down.
    • SU76 has 400 life. Does 120 dmg. Has lower pen and lower ROF. Has no MG.
      Has no command aura bonus, and no hulldown.

      StuG also has stun shot.

    • StuG had about double ROF of SU76 (and more range) with Hull down and about 200% more armor
      w Hulldown + Pz4. (Not to mention vet). Maybe 250% armor.

    Side note. SU-85 just went up to 15 pop (+3 pop!!!!!!!!!!)
    I am NOT going to feel sorry for StuG going up by +2 pop.

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