[ALL] [SOV] Combat Engineers.

#1
11 months ago
thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,733
edited May 2018 in Balance Feedback
Hi all. After constantly bitching about how trash they are i decided to make a thread about the soviet engineer unit.

Problem: they are probably the single worst unit in the game with no redeeming factors and worse: they are 100% required to tech up and repair armour

Being a 4 man squad in a faction of 6 man squads they are a bit squishy off the cuff but also dont get any target size buffs through vet (neither do pios however they can build bunkers, lay down cover, scout in their down time and at least combat weapon teams if they can close in)

Now they can minesweep, but again, they are worse off at it than other factions because they have no defensive traits (.8 target size for sappers, .87 for sturms and sweeper removal if ambushed, los for pios, 5 man squads for sappers and RE, a weapon ontop of the sweeper for RE and sappers...)

For combat they are hands down the worst again. They are a 4 man squad with a bolt action, unable to deal damage at range and unable to deal damage uo close

Their only redeeming quality is non doc flame thrower to clear garrisons.... BUT cons have molitovs to do that (albeit slightly worse) and can finally actually fight now...

They used to have demos but they have been rendered inert and are an empty slot now.

So with all that shit, i propose a shovel:
Make them cheaper to start to reflect their absolute raw garbage power and has the bonus of allowing the soviet to increase their early map control.

Second i would increase the cost of their upgrades BUT allow them to grant a small amount of armour to give them SOMETHING unique and offset their relative weakness. I wouldnt say anything more than .5 armour, just enough to make them a little more combat capable
For price i would suggest dropping them to ~120 since they are quite literal trash with no redeeming qualities, but the upgrades could have an additional MP cost if thats necessary and a bump to 75mu to account for the armour

I also like the idea of an armour/ppsh upgrade for combat engineers to make them sort of poor mans shocks (minus nades)

I have no idea how to emhance their "engineer" side of things but as always im open to idea on how to polish this turd of a unit
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Comments

  • #2
    11 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,733
    Added: would ppsh, armour and flamethrower be too much? Say 100mu? 4 man squad so it would make it high impact/high risk but king garrison clearer
  • #3
    11 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,264
    I'm almost positive Pios and CEs get RA at vet 2. It's not listed on the coh 2 vet guide, but im fairly certain it's there in game.

    That said demo planting was one of CEs most useful functions, and that was nerfed to hell so now they are definitely lacking.

    All minesweeper engineers (except sturms obvi) should get their vet requirements reduced upon acquiring said upgrade. That vet 2 repair bonus is all but necessary late game, and that shouldn't be harder to get because you're using your engineers to do engineering things.
  • #4
    11 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,733
    @SkysTheLimit agreed about the sweeper bit. I wonder if pios and CE getting shared exp would help them not suck so much
  • #5
    11 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,576
    edited May 2018

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    I'm almost positive Pios and CEs get RA at vet 2. It's not listed on the coh 2 vet guide, but im fairly certain it's there in game.

    Neither of them actually does.
    They get accuracy at both, vet2 and vet3.
    These two are the only 2 squads in game with no rec acc bonus what so ever, but pios at least vet reliably due to much better and reliable weapon. CEs are old cons with worse rifles and 4 man.

  • #6
    11 months ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    edited May 2018
    Remove the 'combat' and you have engeneers. Soviets doesn't need something like a combat engineer. The only reason why you can't simply remove them from game is the mine sweeper.

    First think about why Penals are better than Conscripts, that is nonsense. The hole infantry lineup is squishy.

    Better increase Ostheer's Pios price to 240, buff them and rename them as 'Panzerpioniere'.
  • #7
    11 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,733
    Yupp. Vehicle crews get a rec acc buff but not pios or CE.
  • #8
    11 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,014
    I dont think Soviets need more map control or weapon upgrades. Given how awful they are at combat (and how cost effectiveness buffs just make them con-lite) I'd be more interested in approaching the engineer angle.

    Something that I think the Soviets might benefit from is having their CEs exempted from the rec acc penalties that come from repairing to allow them to better support vehicles under fire.

    If it has to be a combat buff, then I kinda just want to give them Hit the Dirt and see what happens
  • #9
    11 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721

    Actually combat engineers weapon are not that bad compared to conscripts (they are even better at some ranges) and they have smaller target size.

  • #10
    11 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,576

    @Lazarus said:
    I dont think Soviets need more map control or weapon upgrades. Given how awful they are at combat (and how cost effectiveness buffs just make them con-lite) I'd be more interested in approaching the engineer angle.

    Something that I think the Soviets might benefit from is having their CEs exempted from the rec acc penalties that come from repairing to allow them to better support vehicles under fire.

    If it has to be a combat buff, then I kinda just want to give them Hit the Dirt and see what happens

    Something like... what they already got at vet3?

    Con treatment would suffice, they don't need to be good in combat, they need to be able to vet up.
    Pios got weapon buffs ages ago and they vet reliably, REs are durable and can equip weapons that allows them to vet, RETs scale EXTREMELY well and can use weapon upgrades, spios weapon also do not make them struggle.

    Its just CEs with their unreliable weapons which need flamer to stand up to anything(and by stand up I mean actually accumulate vet).

  • #11
    11 months ago
    EeereEeere Posts: 18
    edited May 2018

    Being bad is unique to combat engies as an engineer unit
    Soviets in general need the weakness at any rate
    I'd sooner drop them to 4 pop and remove the flamethrowers, low pop could offset their difficult vetting. IE easier to get multiple for repair spam, instead of having to rely on a shitty version of 2 vetted squads of Pioneers. Then let molotovs offset the lack of engineer-based anti-garrison. This also lets repair squad flamers be unique to Ostheer at a base level and open up potential for a new commander maybe

  • #12
    11 months ago
    dmsdms UKPosts: 531

    @Eeere said:

    I'd sooner drop them to 4 pop and remove the flamethrowers,

    flamer is needed with m3 to combat mg42 spam on maps with buildings. Soviet would not have a flamer unit if you remove this !!

  • #13
    11 months ago
    EeereEeere Posts: 18

    @dms said:

    @Eeere said:

    I'd sooner drop them to 4 pop and remove the flamethrowers,

    flamer is needed with m3 to combat mg42 spam on maps with buildings. Soviet would not have a flamer unit if you remove this !!

    rip flame penals lol

  • #14
    11 months ago
    Sander93Sander93 Posts: 45
    edited May 2018

    @dms said:
    flamer is needed with m3 to combat mg42 spam on maps with buildings. Soviet would not have a flamer unit if you remove this !!

    Uhh OKW does fine against garrisons without flamethrowers and clowncars. It would only mean that the molotov might need some adjustment (like being available without tech). And still there is always mortars (and smoke) to clear garrisons.

  • #15
    11 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,733
    Alright so heres the thing that made me actually decide to make a thread about this- was playing a match where a 3 man rak got nailed by WP but they didnt retreat them (maybe they figured its going to die in one hit from whatever tank it pops a shot at anyways so why bother) and it negated their camo , fired a few rounds at it and then it retreated without dropping a model... Now i get its pretty bad RNG im the whole, but christ. After that ive been keeping an eye on them and they bring mothing to the fight and are sub par as engineers too. You can flank weapon crews and not force retreat because there is NO threat from them. None. There shouldnt be units that arnt a threat to literally ANYTHING. If they were not required they would never ever be built and thats not a good thing.
  • #16
    11 months ago
    RoastinGhostRoastinGh… Posts: 25
    edited May 2018

    One thing that makes them unique is that they're the only engineers in the game with full-length rifles.
    I'd normally check coh2stats.hu, but since I can't, I'd assume that they have a dps curve that deals 25% of close range damage at max range? (like conscripts?).
    If the curve were flatter (50%, like grenadiers), they would have a new role of providing some firepower at long range as conscripts or penals closed with the enemy. By a flatter curve, I mean their close-range dps could even be lower if needed.

    Then, to round things out, the flamethrower upgrade could provide a slight RA bonus or a PPSh to make closing with the enemy more worthwhile.
    Minesweeper upgrades should also reduce vet requirements, since they lower vet gains. CE vet mostly improves engineering tasks, so why should the offensive upgrade make for better engineers than the engineering upgrade?

  • #17
    11 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,733
    > @RoastinGhost said:
    > One thing that makes them unique is that they're the only engineers in the game with full-length rifles.
    > I'd normally check coh2stats.hu, but since I can't, I'd assume that they have a dps curve that deals 25% of close range damage at max range? (like conscripts?).
    > If the curve were flatter (50%, like grenadiers), they would have a new role of providing some firepower at long range as conscripts or penals closed with the enemy. By a flatter curve, I mean their close-range dps could even be lower if needed.
    >
    > Then, to round things out, the flamethrower upgrade could provide a slight RA bonus or a PPSh to make closing with the enemy more worthwhile.
    > Minesweeper upgrades should also reduce vet requirements, since they lower vet gains. CE vet mostly improves engineering tasks, so why should the offensive upgrade make for better engineers than the engineering upgrade?

    Would @vipper ve so kind as to provide us with the dps info for the CE and something relative? Its kinda your jam....

    Best i can tell the only thing that combat engies deal more damage than is literally nothing, and thats only barely....
  • #18
    11 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721

    Would @vipper ve so kind as to provide us with the dps info for the CE and something relative? Its kinda your jam....

    Sure NP
    0/5/10/35

    mosin_nagant_rifle_conscript_mp 2.89/2.43/2.08/0.85
    mosin_nagant_rifle_combat_engineer_mp 2.64/2.79/1.93/0.68

    Conscript mosin is superior at 25 1.41 vs 1.03

  • #19
    11 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,576
    edited May 2018

    Don't post DPS of a single model, post DPS of a whole squad, because that is what is relevant. They do not use different weapon on each model like guards and dps of single weapon does not give any kind of meaningful context, because they are not same squad sizes.

    Cons: 17,34 / 14,58 / 12,48 / 5,1

    CEs: 10,56 / 11,16 / 7,72 / 2,72

    So can we now stop pretending CEs are better then cons at any range?

  • #20
    11 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,733
    edited May 2018
    Thanks @vipper for the model stats and @katitof for the squad stats.
    Squad stats show they suck but model stats show us HOW MUCH. Being 4 men no matter what they would be worse than cons, but the model stats show us that they are individually worse than cons which is strange. All other engineer squads fill a role in the factions lineup and there are spots when its better to use them over the mainline (RE vs kubles or as an AT platform for example)

    CE are just worse.

    What would it be like if they performed with high accuracy and a very low ROF, sort of like the opposite of RE? Sort of like a budget gren squad? Trade volume of fire for slow but reliable, not enough output to really be a mainline type unit but enough to be a threat if ignored entirely. A sort of molitov type unit that will pick away at the enemy if they let it (as opposed to doing literally nothing at all... I mean 30 seconds to kill a SINGLE model is ludicrous...)
  • #21
    11 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,014

    I mean... it all depends on what price point you give them I guess. If you bump them up to 200 MP and have them as reverse pios (not very good at long range compared to other long range stuff, but able to at least drop models on assault units like Sturms or Pios if they approach from max).

    The problem I have with them is there's no role you can put them in really that the Soviets don't already have an option for which is why I'd rather return some of their utility instead of adding to their combat performance.

    It's really a shame everyone demanded Penals had to definitely become Panzergren lite, because otherwise I'd say CEs would be a good platform for a PTRS package.

  • #22
    11 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721
    edited May 2018

    @Katitof said:
    Don't post DPS of a single model, post DPS of a whole squad, because that is what is relevant. They do not use different weapon on each model like guards and dps of single weapon does not give any kind of meaningful context, because they are not same squad sizes.

    Cons: 17,34 / 14,58 / 12,48 / 5,1

    CEs: 10,56 / 11,16 / 7,72 / 2,72

    So can we now stop pretending CEs are better then cons at any range?

    mosin_nagant_rifle_combat_engineer_mp is better than mosin_nagant_rifle_conscript_mp in ranges 2-6, that is a simple fact.

    I am not sure what give you the idea that a 170 mp engineer unit armed with bolt action rifle would have more DPS than 240 manpower mainline infantry also armed with bolt action rifle.

  • #23
    11 months ago
    AchlenAchlen Posts: 13
    As with many(if not all) units they get worse accuracy if they are taking fire from the enemy. I usually use 2 CE which come up after my main infantry force and helps dealing dmg to the enemy and they actually help out. This may just be RNG but keeping them at range and behind your infantry that is tanking the enemy dmg, they do their job quite well for the price at which they come.
  • #24
    11 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,576

    @Achlen said:
    As with many(if not all) units they get worse accuracy if they are taking fire from the enemy.

    No, it does not work that way.
    There are only 3 factors affecting accuracy outside of squad itself.

    These are:
    -cover
    -received accuracy of target
    -suppression

    There is nothing like "worse accuracy under fire" outside of suppression.

    I usually use 2 CE which come up after my main infantry force and helps dealing dmg to the enemy and they actually help out. This may just be RNG but keeping them at range and behind your infantry that is tanking the enemy dmg, they do their job quite well for the price at which they come.

    No, they do not.
    You have numbers above.
    They are beyond terrible and contrary to all other engineers, they have no strength of their own at all.
    All the others either scale with weapons or are REALLY good at some range(usually close), CEs just suck.

  • #25
    11 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721
    edited May 2018

    CE are with flamers are more powerful than the more expensive pioneers with flamers since the have more DPS at range 20 the optimum range for flamers.

    CE are cost effective compared to other engineer units, engineer unit with Rack weapon are simply OP and should have penalties.

    Pioneer are not "REALLY good" at close and they usually die before the can get there. The have average DPS and big Target size for close quarters unit.

  • #26
    11 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,733
    Pios at least CAN be used to fight if needed which isnt something that cam be said about CE.
  • #27
    11 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721
    edited May 2018

    Well there some people doing 4 CE start with success.

    Pios are also 200 man power, not 170 and can only fight close range. As I explained flamer CE are better than Pio flamer at range 20.

  • #28
    11 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,576

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Pios at least CAN be used to fight if needed which isnt something that cam be said about CE.

    And pios have a unique perk of increased vision on top of that while literally ALL axis squads except volks and maybe JLI have rec acc lower then 1, lowering further that "amazing CEs accuracy".

  • #29
    11 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721
    edited May 2018

    Accuracy on its own mean very little since CE have better accuracy than Pioneers at all ranges...

    CE
    Accuracy near 0.518
    Accuracy mid 0.449
    Accuracy far 0.334

    Pio
    Accuracy near 0.463
    Accuracy mid 0.27
    Accuracy far 0.115

  • #30
    11 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,264

    I'm with Vipper here, the CE rifles might not be anything to write home about, but they're not useless. The 3 remaining nagants in a flamer squad usually do more than the 3 mp40s in their counterpart.

    I think the demo charge rework was the biggest blow to soviet engineers, as that was one of their main purposes. I don't think we need old demos in the game, but the new ones are so useless and since that is literally their only flavor, there's a blandness to the squad.

  • #31
    11 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,014
    I'm curious as to what you think @SkysTheLimit - should we be concerned with their mediocre combat performance or with their robbed utility or both? Apart from making demos usable again (because thats so obvious that they'll never do it) - is there any other utility you could think of to make CEs worth while? Any gaps in the soviet ability roster like forward healing we can lump on to CEs?
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