Why is this allowed? Satchel (all game modes)

24

Comments

  • #32
    9 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,575
    edited July 2018

    @eonfigure said:
    That's also the issue. The PTRS should and shouldn't be brought into this.

    1. It is effective, even though people say it isn't. No one is going to leave a tank in front of 1 or 2 PTRS squads. The tank will always lose. Namely if it's a medium or lighter. Even a heavy will suffer heavy damage. (Side note, people seem to forget that though most tanks are shooting back, their DPS doesnt match the PTRS squad. The PTRS squad does more damage to the tank, than the tank does to the squad)
    2. No one has addressed or wants to come to the realization that this is a SUPER AT-NADE. With multi-fuctional abilities.
    3. The soviets already have a auto-locking snare. (please do not make it seem like this is a helpless crutch for the soviets)
    4. The satchel is a VERY powerful ability. Even destroying Mediums at near the half health point. Yes MEDIUM TANKS.

    The soivets have AT guns, the soviets have mines, the soviets have a SPAMMABLE hand-held AT guns. The brits and USF have similar abilities and they do just fine without this abomination of an ability.

    The soviets are not helpless. Penals are DURABLE and have very respectable AI default guns. I brought this to attention because of its absurdity. I am not trying point out something so far-fetched that it is dismissive.

    Again, I dare you...DARE YOU to test realm and ponder on what would happen if the axis troops had such an ability. It would absolutely not fly. Yet it is allowed on the opposite faction through a failed patch.

    1. PTRS got a massive deflect damage nerf last patch, its not a threat to medium armor and above, unless its hitting from behind.
    2. What multi functional ability? Only PTRS penals have AT satchel and it can not be used as regular one.
    3. Everyone does, but that's not the point, if you read up the posts above, you'll realize why regular AT nade is NOT enough.
    4. Its 240 damage. The same as 2 shreck hits.
  • #33
    9 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721
    edited July 2018

    @Katitof said:
    1. PTRS got a massive deflect damage nerf last patch, its not a threat to medium armor and above, unless its hitting from behind.

    The same PTRS that had gotten a massive deflection damage buff a couple of patches back (although it was pointed out and advised against it) . Simply it has been proven that the buff was totally uncalled for.

    The PTRS remain a very useful weapon and it is been used extensively.

  • #34
    9 months ago
    BogeyfoxBogeyfox Posts: 148

    It's funny that people still care about balancing. The biggest problem was discussed ages ago... In a 3vs4 or 4vs4 PTRS and satchels are pretty useless. They are too slow and penals are killed by any ai unit in the meantime. In a 1vs1 it can be the opposite because infantry units are missing. If balancing won't turn to different stats in different games people will always argue about this or that. It's simply a point of view.

  • #35
    9 months ago
    mrdjjag81mrdjjag81 Posts: 233

    Keep youre freaking distant from it just, it has very small limited range they are able to hit the target with. Also, 75 mun to upgrade to AT + 45 mun to throw them. Dubbel schreks 100 mun, can shot how many times as you like from a distant, deals same damage if connet 240 damage. Your hardly has the mun to upgrade them to turn pens into at units before rushed scout car or half truck is out as well, ur lucky if u got mun so you can throw one scatchel.. Just keep ur distant

  • #36
    7 months ago

    The major problem with it that it does engine critical instantly, leading to the vehicle unable to escape, and it is then very easy to throw follow up satchels by multiple squads. At 240 damage per satchel, you only need three to destroy a medium - or two, and a couple of PTRS shots.

    The damage against vehicles needs to be lowered to 200 and it will be fine.

  • #37
    7 months ago
    > @Kurfürst said:
    > At 240 damage per satchel, you only need three to destroy a medium - or two, and a couple of PTRS shots.

    Only???? If you let your medium tank get satcheled ONCE you were doing something wrong. It's the easiest snare to avoid in the game. THREE times??? If they have 3 ptrs penal squads you should be winning every infantry engagement.

    Then there's just the cost of that. 900 manpower, 180 munitions in upgrades, followed by 120 munitions in snares. I hope I can kill a medium tank with 900 manpower and 300 munitions in Anti-tank units/abilities
  • #38
    7 months ago

    Except that once the first satchel connects, connecting the others are not a problem, the tank is too slow to retreat most of the time. And connecting the first satchel is not so much of problem, fog of war and the slow acceleration of most Axis vehicles makes sure of that.

    Penal hordes are a valid tactic, play the game instead of the forums perhaps.

    At 120 munitions, Axis can get a pair of Shrekcs on Pgrens. Nowhere near the tank killing efficiency of the satchels I am afraid.

    Satchels need a damage nerf, regardless of the same few people pretending to the blind to the issue that keeps coming up.

  • #39
    7 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,575

    @Kurfürst said:
    play the game instead of the forums perhaps.

    Considering stuff you write vs the reality of what happens in game, I think you should take your own advise.

  • #40
    7 months ago

    @Katitof said:

    @Kurfürst said:
    play the game instead of the forums perhaps.

    Considering stuff you write vs the reality of what happens in game, I think you should take your own advise.

    If you are loosing against Volks that literally every Allied mainline unit can beat, you need to work on your tactics I am afraid.

  • #41
    7 months ago
    le12role12ro Posts: 2,282 mod
    edited September 2018
    (Moderator input) Although the discussion of skills and tactics are interesting, I would like you guys to please keep to the topic at hand.
  • #42
    7 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,264
    edited September 2018
    > @Kurfürst said:
    > Except that once the first satchel connects, connecting the others are not a problem, the tank is too slow to retreat most of the time.

    Where is the rest of your army? So he has 900 mp and 180 munitions worth of units soloing your tank. And you're doing what with your infantry? Telling campfire stories back at base?

    > @Kurfürst said:
    > And connecting the first satchel is not so much of problem, fog of war and the slow acceleration of most Axis vehicles makes sure of that.

    So the fog of war is biased now? Last I checked the OKW get stock maphacks, and Ostheer's starting unit has bonus vision. Everyone has scouting/recon. Use it. If you rush a tank into the FOW without knowing what's there, that's your problem...


    > @Kurfürst said:
    > If you are loosing against Volks that literally every Allied mainline unit can beat, you need to work on your tactics I am afraid.

    Is that why the best players in the world are getting stomped by OKW as Brits and US? So far OKW has a won about 2/3 of its games against both of those factions in the GCS. Do they need to "improve their tactics" oh wise one?
  • #43
    7 months ago
    Kharn89Kharn89 Posts: 585

    I think any Soviet player would gladly trade the Satchel from a Penal for some Panzershrecks. Any AXIS worth their salt will murder AT penals w/ Grens, you give up so much AI capabilities to have an AT Penal they're useless vs any other infantry now other than Pios probably. Most players will only upgrade 1 of their 3 penals w/ the AT Package meaning you only have to worry about ONE squad. IF they upgrade all their Penals they'll have a severe AI problem and you can overwhelm them with your 4 Grens or Volks.

    It's entirely a L2P issue.

    Also, if we want to get down with it, on average Axis pump out 4 infantry, everyone does, it's a core thing. 4 Panzerfausts will easily kill a T-70. Sure its 100 munitions, not 45. But the squads dont sacrifice AI capabilities, and they don't need to pick a tech that has NO AT GUNS.. ya ya know.

  • #44
    7 months ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,979
    edited September 2018

    @Kharn89 said:
    Any AXIS worth their salt will murder AT penals w/ Grens, you give up so much AI capabilities to have an AT Penal they're useless vs any other infantry now other than Pios probably. Most players will only upgrade 1 of their 3 penals w/ the AT Package meaning you only have to worry about ONE squad.

    Now this is simply not true. Even when upgraded, Penals are pretty decent AI troops, though not the elite-troop equivalent they are when unupgraded. They retain about 2/3s of their AI firepower, which is superb to begin with. AT Penals will win against a Grenadier squad when playing their strenghs, that is not standing at max range and hoping for the best but by closing in. If youre having problems dealing with anything other than Pios with AT Penals, the L2P issue more likely lies with you.

  • #45
    7 months ago
    @hingie while they do retain a lot of AI, it's not the level of AI you expect from a 300mp unit. However as always Iill plug my preference of making them cheaper but have to chose between AI and AT via munitions upgrade to prevent EZ choice snowballing that WFA designs present. Make choices a thing again!
  • #46
    7 months ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,979
    The better question in my mind would be what there is to be expected from a early tier infantry squad. Regardless of squad cost Penals are punching very hard for as early as they are available and they remain potent throughout the game. Branching upgrades seems a decent suggestion, but I doubt we will see that idea implemented. Not while people are in charge who deem it, for example, more pressing to nerf Hull Down than do something useful with the limited resources given to them.
  • #47
    7 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,264
    edited September 2018
    > @Hingie said:
    > The better question in my mind would be what there is to be expected from a early tier infantry squad. Regardless of squad cost Penals are punching very hard for as early as they are available

    The same could be said for sturms, except their an HQ unit and you get 1 for free. While they don't scale combat-wise like penals, they still have plenty of utility later on.

    Penals seem fine in the current state of the game. I don't like how aggressive the openings have become either, but the OKW started that train a long time ago. Their HQ is too stocked.

    I also disagree that grens can't beat AT penals. If the grens have their AI upgrade theyll rip them apart unless you get surprised.
  • #48
    7 months ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 993

    could someone remind me what the ranges and munition costs of AT nades, Panzerfausts, and Satchels?

  • #49
    7 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,014
    > @Grittle said:
    > could someone remind me what the ranges and munition costs of AT nades, Panzerfausts, and Satchels?

    You'll also want durability of squads, availability of sprints, competing muni investments, damage of snares... unfortunately since the WFA relics made it a massive pain in the ass to compare things - certainly not helped by the 3 v 2 faction arrangement.
  • #50
    7 months ago
    @SkysTheLimit I personally don't mind sturms. They have their own drawbacks in target size (smaller than tommys) having to close and the MP bleed from them. You get them to start sure, but over leaning in then can end very expensively. Sturms are more of a shock unit.
  • #51
    7 months ago
    @thedarkarmadillo I only have a problem with them as a starting unit, especially in tandem with the kubel being able to cap. I've made this point before but that completely negates the idea of backcapping, and in 2s that can allow extra agression from your teammate as well.
  • #52
    7 months ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 468
    edited September 2018

    I cannot believe their are actually people still defending this ability as if its valid. There's a lot of discussion about tactics and "if" and "when"...I'm also seeing a lot of "You need to do this" or "You need to do that."

    Trades off....Shrecks/zooks/ATrifles...Again, still missing the big picture.

    This ability one shots light armor, (and to an extent-relatively med armor) from a mobile durable squad. It's not a mine. The infantry follows you. They come after you! (There is no "avoid them") The satchel itself, auto-locks on to the target.

    This game has a foundation (at least i hope) That's what the integrity of the devs are trying to uphold: Not to lose a single unit instantly. Should i start quoting from our holy codex of patch notes?? Commander abilities, Strike planes, Unit abilities, accuracy in weapons, flat out damage reductions...

    This goes against everything the patches over the years have strived to achieve.

  • #53
    7 months ago
    ARMYguyARMYguy Posts: 807

    I agree it needs to be removed, it shouldn't have ever been added in the first place on an already dominate faction with literally every tool in the book. But good luck getting them to remove the ability. At least it could be balanced in some way if the ability needs to stay in, like reduced damage, or no snaring. Its still a huge punishment to the tank to take that massive amount of damage for closing in, but at least then it doesn't just instantly die to being snared + Massive damage.

  • #54
    7 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,014
    edited September 2018

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @hingie I've said before penal are over performing. I think they need to have an MP reduction and have start with Mosins and upgrade to SVTs or Ptrs. The satchel won't be a problem if it's not a transition from God like AI. There needs to be a choice.

    2 months old but this is literally the solution already in this thread. Satchels aren't a big deal if there's actually a penalty to spamming penals

  • #55
    7 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,575

    @eonfigure said:
    I cannot believe their are actually people still defending this ability as if its valid. There's a lot of discussion about tactics and "if" and "when"...I'm also seeing a lot of "You need to do this" or "You need to do that."

    Trades off....Shrecks/zooks/ATrifles...Again, still missing the big picture.

    This ability one shots light armor, (and to an extent-relatively med armor) from a mobile durable squad. It's not a mine. The infantry follows you. They come after you! (There is no "avoid them") The satchel itself, auto-locks on to the target.

    This game has a foundation (at least i hope) That's what the integrity of the devs are trying to uphold: Not to lose a single unit instantly. Should i start quoting from our holy codex of patch notes?? Commander abilities, Strike planes, Unit abilities, accuracy in weapons, flat out damage reductions...

    This goes against everything the patches over the years have strived to achieve.

    It does 240 dmg.
    That is not enough to kill any axis light other then kubel.

    Contrary to zooks/shrecks, PTRS will not OHK your light as soon as it enters range and aim for much longer time instead of doing shreck 360 no scopes.

    The unit would be non functional without satchel as you'd simply get close and push them until you win without them firing a single ptrs round.

    The short range and long animation of the ability clearly indicate its purpose and balance place - its a deterrent, it screams "stay away from me" and if you won't, you'll be punished.

    Don't play like a noob and everything will be ok.

  • #56
    7 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,264
    edited September 2018
    > @eonfigure said:
    > This ability one shots light armor, (and to an extent-relatively med armor) from a mobile durable squad.

    It does not one shot light armor. Most light armor has 400hp, 240 damage so you do the math Einstein. People defend this ability because you continually lie/misrepresent how strong it is.

    And to an extent? What the **** does that even mean, the medium will have more than half health after taking one of these....
  • #57
    7 months ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 993

    @Lazarus said:
    > @Grittle said:
    > could someone remind me what the ranges and munition costs of AT nades, Panzerfausts, and Satchels?

    You'll also want durability of squads, availability of sprints, competing muni investments, damage of snares... unfortunately since the WFA relics made it a massive pain in the ass to compare things - certainly not helped by the 3 v 2 faction arrangement.

    I just want the numbers on the snares themselves.

  • #58
    7 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,264
    edited September 2018

    @Grittle
    Penal AT satchel
    Range: 10
    Cost: 45 muni
    Faust
    Range: 20
    Cost: 25 muni
    Sov AT nade
    Range: 20
    Cost: 25 muni

  • #59
    7 months ago
    Half the range and nearly 2x the price on a squad that is 25% more expensive and locked behind a upgrade that reduces AI but "why is it better?"
  • #60
    7 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,014
    Well because it snares even full HP Panthers. That's not a small perk.
  • #61
    7 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,575

    @Lazarus said:
    Well because it snares even full HP Panthers. That's not a small perk.

    What is your AT tank doing within 10 range of AT squad?

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