[UKF/ALL] Valentine

#1
2 years ago
XlossXloss Posts: 235
edited July 2018 in Balance Feedback

I've been using this tank for quite a while now.
This tank got a lot of cons.

You cant even use this to kill or repel a squad.

Pro.
1. OKW like Map hack

Cons
1. Poor accuracy
2. Low damage for a 75mm Gun
3. Turret Mg so weak.
4. Low Sight vision
5. Almost same price tag as T34 for a very low quality tank Price: 300/80
6. Out performed by T70 in anti-infantry, movement speed, Rate of fire and scouting

«1

Comments

  • #2
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    What would it be like with 160 damage (and the buff to AI that goes with that) could be interesting... I walso want the map hax and the Victor target swapped. A vet ability shouldn't require other units to work.
  • #3
    2 years ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235
    Its AI is the main problem. Out of 5 shots it missed 4 of them.
    Swapping Vet abilities is a good idea too. Its really hard to vet this tank coz it miss a lot of shot even not moving.
  • #4
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    With a damage bump it would stand out as a light tank but also buff its AI because there's more damage to fall off. It's AoE wouldn't have to be changed for it to be more lethal. Idk might be a good start
  • #5
    2 years ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    That would be awesome. Every game i will lose at least 6 valentine coz it does not kill the target fast enough to avoid being killed.

  • #6
    2 years ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    Tested Valentine vs Puma, Valentine lose even having 75mm gun.

  • #7
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681
    edited July 2018

    @Xloss said:
    Tested Valentine vs Puma, Valentine lose even having 75mm gun.

    Why wouldn't it lose?
    It has 50% longer reload, puma has 50% more damage and 20% lower range.

  • #8
    2 years ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434

    It clearly needs a buff of some sort of course. But I'd just like to urge caution in not going too far. It's in a commander that'll most likely get buffed in general anyway, and it's a call in.

    And a kinda unwritten rule these days with call ins in the mid game is that it shouldn't be better than teching, only supplement.

  • #9
    2 years ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    For its price at least in my OPINION valentine should and could 1v1 Puma and RNG and micro will decide who will win just like Stuart light tank.
    Or maybe change its main gun to anti infantry gun and just like other light tank it can hunt down sniper.

    While it should not be able to beat Panzer 4 without any support.

  • #10
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    Why do you believe that? The Puma is a light AT recon vehicle. The Valentine is an artillery support recon vehicle. It trades DPS for durability, Sexton synergy and map hax
  • #11
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    @Lazarus said:
    Why do you believe that? The Puma is a light AT recon vehicle. The Valentine is an artillery support recon vehicle. It trades DPS for durability, Sexton synergy and map hax

    Valentines durability is equal to that of Puma.
    The only instance where armor matters for either of them is when they are up against HMG42 incendiary rounds.

    Inb4 "but ketetuff, muh pema ermer iz lou zo smell arms kan dimig eet!" - yes, but if you are losing pumas to small arms other then AP on HMGs after you got snared near it, you've got bigger problem on your part to fix.

  • #12
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 2,006

    @Katitof said:
    Inb4 "but ketetuff, muh pema ermer iz lou zo smell arms kan dimig eet!"

    I see you finally gave up the act and started writing in accordance to your intellectual abilities. Good for you!

  • #13
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    @Katitof said:

    @Lazarus said:
    Why do you believe that? The Puma is a light AT recon vehicle. The Valentine is an artillery support recon vehicle. It trades DPS for durability, Sexton synergy and map hax

    Valentines durability is equal to that of Puma.
    The only instance where armor matters for either of them is when they are up against HMG42 incendiary rounds.

    Inb4 "but ketetuff, muh pema ermer iz lou zo smell arms kan dimig eet!" - yes, but if you are losing pumas to small arms other then AP on HMGs after you got snared near it, you've got bigger problem on your part to fix.

    Or you could be an adult and realize that if you are chasing a Puma with a T-70 to finish it off, the armor makes a tremendous difference than if you were chasing a Valentine with a Luchs to finish it off. After all, you're mr objective, so a blatant, indisputable, irrefutable, immutable, universal objective fact like Valentine durability > Puma durability wouldn't be at all contentious unless you had some kind of agenda

  • #14
    2 years ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    @Lazarus said:
    Why do you believe that? The Puma is a light AT recon vehicle. The Valentine is an artillery support recon vehicle. It trades DPS for durability, Sexton synergy and map hax

    Because armored CAR with a gun that can kill tanks (Puma) versus a light TANK **with a **big gun same with all regular Medium tank should and could atleast tow to tow an armored CAR.

    They got different abilities and role but that does not mean one of them should be crap.

    Puma is very fast can escape mediums or kill it PLUS kill sniper with hull MG.

    Valentine dies versus Sturm pioneer with upgraded Shrzks.
    You cant even vet it up to one star to make use of its arty.
    I've been trying to vet valentine many times now when i get it Panzer 4 just face dive it.

    Lets face it, I don't even know how to vet a CP 6 Call in light tank.

    Kill infantry? it will die coz its missed a lot and if it hit the damage is so meh
    Kill Light vehicle? Can't even chase a fkn gren thats retreating how much more light vehicles.
    Tanks? do we need to discuss this?
    Tank destroyer? Like duh!!!
    Support weapons? Like what? you really need to face dive a wall of PAK40/Raketen with Grens/vGrens?

    What i did in my previous match is kill Muni/fuel Cache. And man!!!!!!!!!!!
    Damage is so weak i can even get a bottled milk in a 30mins drive Mall.

  • #15
    2 years ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    I forgot to mention one.

    Can it kill armored cars? Yes it CANT!

  • #16
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    @Hingie said:

    @Katitof said:
    Inb4 "but ketetuff, muh pema ermer iz lou zo smell arms kan dimig eet!"

    I see you finally gave up the act and started writing in accordance to your intellectual abilities. Good for you!

    Anything to make the likes of you understand.
    And I do not want to be wearing SS uniform and standing on Maus each time just to get your kind to listen with attention.

  • #17
    2 years ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951

    Set spotting scope passive as vet1 (IR is buggy and frequently perma-reveals squads on the minimap), arty target as stock. Mirror the gun to the Greyhound. Get rid of crush and put its speed on par with the other light tanks since I believe its currently still at pre-nerf Cromwell levels.

  • #18
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    > @Xloss said:
    > 5. Almost same price tag as T34 for a very low quality tank Price: 300/80

    Emphasis on almost. It's still 10 fuel cheaper, and the t34 is notorious for how cheap it is. The Valentine costs that much because it's tech free, and the maphacks is very valuable.

    The IR HT on OKW needs to require more than 5 fuel because it displaces the value of that ability. If that was more expensive, 80 fuel for a tech-free light tank that can do it too seems plenty fair. Even if it's not some legend in combat like the t70
  • #19
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    @Xloss said:

    @Lazarus said:
    Why do you believe that? The Puma is a light AT recon vehicle. The Valentine is an artillery support recon vehicle. It trades DPS for durability, Sexton synergy and map hax

    Because armored CAR with a gun that can kill tanks (Puma) versus a light TANK **with a **big gun same with all regular Medium tank should and could atleast tow to tow an armored CAR.

    This is the balance section, not the realism section. Kubelwagens can survive a 85mm shell, if you ram it with a T34, you'll break the T34, people can stand point blank firing rifles at each other for about 20 seconds before anyone actually die. You'll have to come up with something better than that.

  • #20
    2 years ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235
    edited July 2018

    @Lazarus said:

    @Xloss said:

    @Lazarus said:
    Why do you believe that? The Puma is a light AT recon vehicle. The Valentine is an artillery support recon vehicle. It trades DPS for durability, Sexton synergy and map hax

    Because armored CAR with a gun that can kill tanks (Puma) versus a light TANK **with a **big gun same with all regular Medium tank should and could atleast tow to tow an armored CAR.

    This is the balance section, not the realism section. Kubelwagens can survive a 85mm shell, if you ram it with a T34, you'll break the T34, people can stand point blank firing rifles at each other for about 20 seconds before anyone actually die. You'll have to come up with something better than that.

    Thats why at least improve AI capability on it or AT role. Atleast we know what that thing can do. Currently its just IR HT but much expensive.

    How will you justify 80 fuel that cant kill anything efficiently?
    The best thing it can do is BE an IR HT for a freakn 300 Manpower /80 fuel.
    Coz anything against it is killing it even your goldfish can kill the valentine thats how pitiful it is.

    or just take 75mm gun off the valentin coz basically its the same. It cant kill anything and make it 200MP/5fuel like IRHT

  • #21
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    @Xloss said:

    Thats why at least improve AI capability on it or AT role. Atleast we know what that thing can do. Currently its just IR HT but much expensive.

    How will you justify 80 fuel that cant kill anything efficiently?

    Not to quote myself, but "It trades DPS for durability, map hax, and Sexton synergy"

    It's not supposed to solo, it's a support unit. The absolute most it needs is a tiny bump on MG damage to make it better at fighting infantry and to swap the maphax and sexton abilities.

  • #22
    2 years ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    Its not durable. Give me replays that its good for something rather than dying.

  • #23
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    It's sure as shit more durable than an IRHT and it'll take a few hits before dying (plus not going to fall to mortars) but it's not enough as is. Tbh what would it look like in t2 after a side grade? Let it availible even if ya tech bofors. Buff it's gun/mg/reduce price slightly because of the tech requirement, have it as a 222 luchs counter first and foremost but with some ground time to vet up. Also looking at its vet.... It's trash. Maybe adjust its vet rate so it can get all that trash by the time it's on its way to IR duty.
    Summary:
    Tie to bofor/AEC unlock
    ~50-60 fuel, bang off 50mp
    Buff AI somehow slightly (I still like the idea of a full power main gun to set it unique of lights at that time and increase lethal radius) AEC should still be viable tho and not worse in every way so AI on the lower side isn't BAD but trash like now is...
    Lower exp requirments
    Swap IR and Victor target
    Maybe tie base howitzer to Victor as well if not already
    Shared exp?
  • #24
    2 years ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    It's sure as shit more durable than an IRHT and it'll take a few hits before dying (plus not going to fall to mortars) but it's not enough as is. Tbh what would it look like in t2 after a side grade? Let it availible even if ya tech bofors. Buff it's gun/mg/reduce price slightly because of the tech requirement, have it as a 222 luchs counter first and foremost but with some ground time to vet up. Also looking at its vet.... It's trash. Maybe adjust its vet rate so it can get all that trash by the time it's on its way to IR duty.
    Summary:
    Tie to bofor/AEC unlock
    ~50-60 fuel, bang off 50mp
    Buff AI somehow slightly (I still like the idea of a full power main gun to set it unique of lights at that time and increase lethal radius) AEC should still be viable tho and not worse in every way so AI on the lower side isn't BAD but trash like now is...
    Lower exp requirments
    Swap IR and Victor target
    Maybe tie base howitzer to Victor as well if not already
    Shared exp?

    This.

  • #25
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    @Xloss said:
    Its not durable. Give me replays that its good for something rather than dying.

    I didn't say it was durable. I said it was more durable than a Puma.

  • #26
    2 years ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235
    edited July 2018

    @Lazarus said:

    @Xloss said:
    Its not durable. Give me replays that its good for something rather than dying.

    I didn't say it was durable. I said it was more durable than a Puma.

    So its not durable, its not efficient at kill Armored Car, Infantry, Support Weapon, Tanks, Tank Destroyer, Heavy Tank.
    So what is it then?
    Trash or just a waste of Manpower and Fuel?

    Contest kubelwagen and valentine who kills faster.

  • #27
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    > @Xloss said:
    >
    > So what is it then?

    Go to post 10 in this thread.
  • #28
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    @Xloss The Valentine's maphacks cannot be undervalued. First of all, the IR HT is underpriced and probably shouldn't even be a stock unit.

    Second, if you pick that Commander you have late-game arty spilling out of your hands and it's massively useful for scoping out targets.

    Third, at most it needs a slight MG buff for more consistency vs infantry, as @Lazarus suggested. Any more than that and you're adding too much utility to a cp6 80 fuel vehicle.
  • #29
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    I think it needs more than an MG buff. Else it will just be a worse combat AEC with map hax
  • #30
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited July 2018
    Yeah and for it's cost I really don't see anything wrong with that. Like I said in the IR HT thread and here, I don't think people properly appreciate the map hacks. In the irht case it's too cheap, in this case people might be expecting too much more.

    This is directed more at OP, but I'm very tired of reading about people complaining that "x" unit loses to "y" unit, and that's why "x" unit needs to be changed. Very few units in this game are designed with soloing in mind. Especially in the Valentine's case, this unit should not be soloing any vehicle (unless a scout car or kubel has survived that long), its there for support.
  • #31
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    I think it needs more than an MG buff. Else it will just be a worse combat AEC with map hax

    That's kind of the point though, isn't it? Again, it's more durable than the AEC, has map hax, and can synergize with the Sextons (should also include the 25 pdrs like you said). You're getting a much wider variety of abilities out of the Valentine, so the depth has to suffer otherwise you end up with a no brainer unit

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