Wehrmacht Commander Revamp Discsusson

#1
1 year ago
Andy_REAndy_RE Posts: 263 admin

Please use this thread to discuss or submit ideas for the Wehrmacht Commander Revamp

If you want to submit a full proposal, here are a few guidelines.

  • Please choose commanders that you feel can realistically become competitive with a few good changes. Some commanders are probably beyond redemption at this point. We are aiming to revamp two commanders per faction.
  • Reminder that all proposed changes, must be preexisting units or abilities currently in the live game.
  • Suggested changes should not detract from the commanders given theme.
  • Please provide the rationale behind your proposed changes, and how they will improve said commander.
  • Where applicable, provide costs, CP values, or other details regarding particular change(s)
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Comments

  • #2
    1 year ago

    For the new abilities I'm not sure for the CP requirements, these are just ideas I am giving out ideas for my favorite faction.

    Mechanized Assault Doctrine: A doctrine good potential to be good, but is lackluster when using it
    1. Assault Grenadiers: a great disappointment that struggles to scale as the game goes on, what I suggest is to allow them to upgrade example would be stg 44s (2 get them) that would allow them to deal with enemies at long ranges.

    1. Mechanized Assault Group: Expensive for what it costs (same with the grenadier mechanized group in the German mechanized doctrine). Lower the costs and allow the sdkfz 250 to have a mg42 or mg 34 upgrade when their is no infantry in it. Because it really has limited utility to it.

    2. The Stug E is mediocre at best, it would be nice to give it an mg 42 upgrade. It should require tech in order to build it. But to complement this, increase the AOE so its worth building from the Supported Armour Korps.

    3. Remove the Light Arty Barrage and give an assault ability called, "Mechanized Assault", 70 -100 fuel and all the vehicles get a great speed boost maybe also an accuracy boost.

    4. For the tiger, make it unique for this doctrine, maybe give it self defense grenade ability (like the churchill), or a commander upgrade to boost other units.

    Spearhead: Feels very similar with Assault Support
    1. Mortar Halftrack needs its muni cost lowered for the incendiary rounds.

    1. Panzer Tactician isn't needed, the mortar halftrack should be used to cover the tank's retreat with smoke or support their attack. Replace it with a spearhead ability for P4s, Panther and Tiger (like the OKW King tiger) or a combined arms ability (when you hear spearhead, its combined arms) so this ability boosts infantry and vehicles to fight better together.

    2. Replace Reconnaissance Flight with an assault unit like stormtroopers (which would complement the idea of spearhead), or assault pioneers (a squad of pioneers but stronger and has better weapons like the sturmpioneers).

    3. Keep the Stuka Frag bombing, its complements the doctrine well.

    4. Make the tiger a command tiger (not good as the Tiger Ace just a regular tiger with buffs.) but this unit will lead the Spearhead. It will drive fear to the enemies, and boost its units. Give it like damage buffs to nearby units.

    Either way if you guys do read this, thank you.

  • #3
    1 year ago

    German Mechanized Doctrine could use a little flair. Try replacing the useless Mechanized Grenadier group with a 2 cp mortar halftrack. Still keeps to the essense of the commander, but provides a unique early mortar coupled with late artillery. Keep everything else as it is.

  • #4
    1 year ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    edited July 2018

    @KingRudigerIII If you give Mechanized-Doctrine a 250/7 it gets to similar to Festung-Support.

    Mechanized-Doctrine don't need much love, only one thing is useless...
    We can pimp the Mechanized Grenadier, by changing the 250 to a special version of 251 e.g. without roof so it can be used as battle-platform and put e.g. assault Grenadiere in it.

    Osttruppen-Commander is still crap, the guy how changed it was a bungler. Revamp:
    -Osttruppen
    -Artillerieoffizier
    -Supply-Drop
    -Beutepanzer T34 (captured T34)
    -Eisenhabgeschütz (Railway-Artillery)

    x Osttruppen don't need a LMG42, it simply looks stupid and the sounds are annoying. Give them a Panzerbüchse 39 instead, a damage nerfed version of PTRS. Also give them the ability to build sand-bags and wire without the trench-ability (so we can finally remove that useless thing) also the reseve of other commanders get a buff. Maybe remove the bunker for them instead, so you need pios or grens.
    x The PaK40 simply don't fit for the supply-drop. Take the Soviet "45mm M1937", make a new skin and call it "4,2cm leichte PaK41" (they nearly looking the same). This thing was really droped by Aircraft and would fit better with MG34 and Osttruppen.
    x Instead of trenches give them a Beute T34. That allowes the tactic to scip T2 and T3. So the support-drop also gets a real reason.

    That's a real Osttruppen-Commander you don't lough about.

    Community-Defense also need a change.
    - Riegelmine
    - Barricades (instead of the czech hedgehog) dreagon-teeth for OKW
    - hull-down
    - PaK43
    - Sektor-Artillerie

    x Riegelmine would fit perfect for the Commander.
    x Barricades are simply cosmetics, because they are looking more improvisd, Fitting better to Ostheer with hull-down. So every fraction gets their own blue-print.

  • #5
    1 year ago
    MSAF_Unbekannt_15MSAF_Unbe… Posts: 64
    edited July 2018

    Logistics Disruption Doctrine 2.0 [Updated Version of Encirclement Doctrine]

    Concept: Light-moving infantry in Jäger Divisions are best used serving within enemy territory where they are able to disrupt enemy supply lines while remaining organized. Infantry squads are now capable of better fieldcraft and mobility. Elite Brandenburger Infantry (Stormtroopers) can be called in with Liechte Mechanized Support to disrupt enemy supply lines and encircle the enemy with rapid speed with mobile infantry and armour. Crippling enemy supply lines will allow you to breakthrough enemy strongpoints and encircle isolated pockets of resistance.

    0CP - Breakthrough Tactics
    All Infantry are given a +200% decapture rate [Breakthrough Doctrine - 35 munitions]

    3CP - Sdkfz 251 Halftrack with Stormtroopers [500mp and 30 fuel]
    A Sdkfz 251 Halftrack is called into battle carrying Stormtroopers

    4CP - Tactical Movement [Ostheer Ability - 40 munitions]
    All Infantry gets maximum movement speed [Sprint] for 20 seconds

    9CP - Breakthrough
    All Vehicles are given a +200% decapture rate and +25% Movement Speed [Same as Encirclement Doctrine - 50 fuel]

    12CP - Close the Pocket
    All cut-off sectors bombarded with zeroing artillery [Encirclement Doctrine - 200 munitions]

    Why the Change?

    The current Encirclement Doctrine follows a very niche and specialized theme that revolves around map design and sector cut-offs where this commander can perform very well on some maps with critical cut-offs, while on the other hand, most of the abilities revolving cut offs become much too expensive for its use on other maps.

    Considering all of its abilities require a large taxation of fuel as well as munitions to gain a positive outcome [Closing the Pocket] as well as posing a very high risk of failure to the player operating it should the enemy regain control of a single cut-off.

    Now, here are a few reasons why this new loadout can improve the Encirclement Doctrine Commander significantly.

    1. This modification allows us to address the increased versatility of the Commander to more situations in the early, mid and late game while still retaining the "Encirclement" Theme. Providing increased de-capture options and increased mobility to both Ostheer Infantry and Vehicles can increase our options at every timeframe of the game.

    2. Breakthrough Tactics can accommodate the early game with a fair price of 35 munitions, allowing infantry to rapidly decapture territory and denying key sectors from the enemy such as fuel, munitions and cut-offs.

    3. Halftracks are an essential component of this Commander due to their rapid mobility and ability to transport and reinforce units behind enemy frontlines and effectively evading enemy units in the process. [Infantry Awareness]. This also addresses the issue where we remove yet another building-spawned infantry squad and instead combining it with a vehicle that can actually serve its original purpose of cutting off territories.

    Another reason why Halftracks are used here is because they have a very low XP requirement to unlock Vet 3 and can get shared veterancy from surrounding infantry gaining XP. [This gives it incredible speed and sight range when conserved properly]

    1. Tactical Movement allows additional versatility as a common ability in the Ostheer Commander Ability Pool that allows infantry to travel at maximum speed for many occasions, and can be deadly when in used in conjunction with Breakthrough Tactics or when moving with armour as well as halftrack support for flanking maneuvers and encirclement.

    2. At the late-game where fuel becomes more accessible, Ostheer Armoured Columns can aid in additional breakthrough maneuvers with their own version of Breakthrough Tactics, paving the way for the endgame ability "Close the Pocket" while supported by mobile, fast-moving infantry supported by Halftracks.

    9CPs are considerably fair because of its high price of 50 fuel, reserving this ability for late-game pushes and flanking. If the cost was reduced to 30 fuel and removing the speed buff, a change to 6-7CP might make it work as well.

    What do you think?

  • #6
    1 year ago

    German infantry doctrine
    This doctrine needs a call in unit to support infantry.
    Mortar halftrack at 2cp or Stug III ausf E at 6CP.
    Remove light arty barrage

  • #7
    1 year ago
    YappirYappir Posts: 58

    Hello.
    Some time ago i posted a sugestion on the idea to remake Osttruppen Doctrine. The sugestion however requires changes in the game like new units for example. The guidline sugest to use preexisting units but i decided not ot chnage my sugestion as it uses only existing models sounds and animations. Hopefuly, You, dear developers will not find idea for new content as a burden and you will consider adding at lest some of them.

    Here it goes:

    What doctrine is ment to be used for: Osttruppen Doctrine in my vision offers quick early start with ost infantry. It is focused on defending the territory captured in early game and not leting it go. It allows to defend with firmly grip and replenish the losses quickly in case of caulties. Here are the abilities and elements that allow it:

    0 CP - Osttruppen Infantry: ability currently in the doctrine. They quick dispach of osttruppen at the early game allows us to gain territory to defend as we do not have to wait for the building and traning time, as we would in case of grenadiers. We can even skip the first building as we can build mg 42, pioniers and ost with the tools we are given from the start.

    3 CP - Defensive Operations: Mg42, Pak 40 and mortar team recive new ability that allow them to dig a fox hole and place thier weapon team in it. This ability require some time to set up (same time as building a sandbag) and cost a little of ammunition (i would sugest 40?). It also prevent weapon team from movement or rotation so placement here is key. It gives the team a green cover bonus and additional defensive bonus agaist artillery strikes. This allows more defensive gameplay and gives us resitance to artillery barrages we can expect as defenders. However it uses some of our ammunition and leave us vulnerable to flanking as we are unable to rotate our weapons (except the mortar team that can rotate as it has to do so in aming).

    This ability allow us to play defensive with weapons teams and not be obliterated by artylery strikes. Obviously after a long time of droping hell on us, the crew will eventuly be killed but it will take much longer then usualy. The cost of 40 ammunition and the penality to movment and rotatnion makes this ability hard to just "click and win". The cost is a big part of it as it will be make imposible to just build thouse things in mass amount. Foxholing 4 mgs would cost us 160 ammo, thats a lot. Also each time we rotate the weapon team we would have to pay again. I see this ability as interesting and overall balanced.

    I also imagine that this could be easy to add to the game as it just require diging animation and some sandbags models that are in the game already.

    6 CP - Osttruppen Packages - Unlocks more options for osttrrupen improvments. We have now not only mg but also 2 additional options so ost can fill more roles then just basic infantry. AT this point of the game we propobly have a lot of ost infantry on the battlefield. It would

    AT package - adds 1 At rifle (PzB39) to the team and ost recive ability to use AT rifle grandes. This abilty makes everyone (except the guy with PzB39) fire a single AT grande at selected location. This ability is not guided (like other AT grandes) so aiming is key here. This ability has long range. It is somewhat effective agaist structures and can damage infantry (yet it is not effective agaist them). Panzerfaust is disabled if this package is purchesed. I see the ability interssting as again it is not "click and win". I will sugest cost of 40 ammunition for this package.

    Mp40 package - adds x4 mp 40 submachineguns to the team so ost can be used in more close range fashion. They are still osttruppen and do not perform well with out of cover but now ost do better in towns and other close range scenarios as defensive unit. They are still very fragile and do not do well in open terrain. I will sugest cost of 60 ammunition for this package as similar soviet one cost as much.
    Adds M24 grande trow.

    This feture is easy to add to the game as models and animations are already in the game and for little efford they can add a lot of freshness into the game.

    8 CP - Hetzer - calls in hetzer SPG we had in CoH1. This unit is an emergency alternative in case we are losing badly. Hetzers were designed to be cheap tank destroyer capable to fight off hordes of Shermans and T-34s to save resources in late stage of war.
    Hetzer cost 300 manpower and 60 fuel, recharge of 3 mins.
    Hetzer has small firepower yet it is enough to grind down T-34 in numberous shots. (in reality hetzer had low fire power too)
    Hetzer is slow so it is hard to be used as offensive weapon (in reality hetzer was slow too)
    Hetzer front armor is tough but it sides are very vulnerable (as in reality)
    Hetzers cheap price allow it to be deployed even in most dire games when Wermaht is in losing position
    Hetzer require 8 CP so it is hard to rush it as first armored unit
    Hetzer can become invisible as it small size allows it to be easly camuflaged (as in reality).
    Top mount Mg 42 is added when vet 3 is achived.

    Hetzer is bad alternative for other German tanks and it is expected to be used when the player is short on fuel and did not build T3 building, what is common for germans players in attempt to rush a Panther.

    Again it is a content that is easly addable to the game as we have the version with flametrower. All there is to be done is to change it attack values and chnage the flames animation to AT gun.

    I hope this do not discourage to add it. It is iconic vehicle of ww2 and as i saw many players would like to see it in the game.

    12 CP - railway arty support - Ability we have today, nothing to explain. It is here so we have some artylery at the late game and we can use some not used ammunition.

    It is doctrine that needs a lot of ammo but can handle with out of it. As said it is foused on defending but also can be used to attack and it is very flexible with defending if the player handle it properly.

    I see the doctrine as fresh, u niqe and well balaced. Your ost spam now has some customisation later on in the game. Being overwhelmed by armor? you can buy your ost some AT! Overspamed by shock troops? Mp40 can add some close range claw to your fellows. Hetzer is always there to call if you were cought with your pants down and no tank alternative as your panther rush failed.

  • #8
    1 year ago
    YappirYappir Posts: 58

    Hello i wanted to sugest the new face of Osttruppen doctrine. The guidlines says not to sugest a content that is not preexisting but I do not want to resign out of my idea that I posted some time ago. I hope that, You, dear developers will nto be discourage by additional work around my idea.

    I see Osttruppen Doctrine as defensive doctrine that allow the player to quickly advance, bite in and not let go. Osttruppen Doctrine also is good at recovering losses and forming defensive front and not leting go the key positions. Here are the elemensts that allow it:

    0 CP - Osttruppen Infantry: ability currently in the doctrine. They quick dispach of osttruppen at the early game allows us to gain territory to defend as we do not have to wait for the building and traning time, as we would in case of grenadiers. We can even skip the first building as we can build mg 42, pioniers and ost with the tools we are given from the start.

    3 CP - Defensive Operations: Mg42, Pak 40 and mortar team recive new ability that allow them to dig a fox hole and place thier weapon team in it. This ability require some time to set up (same time as building a sandbag) and cost a little of ammunition (i would sugest 40 ammo). It also prevent weapon team from movement or rotation so placement here is key. It gives the team a green cover bonus and additional defensive bonus agaist artillery strikes. This allows more defensive gameplay and gives us resitance to artillery barrages we can expect as defenders. However it uses some of our ammunition and leave us vulnerable to flanking as we are unable to rotate our weapons (except the mortar team that can rotate as it has to).
    I see this abilty opens posibility of more defensive playstyle but has dowsides to it. It require cost of 40 ammo per weapon crew. It prevents our weapon team from moving and we have to pay again if we want to relocate it. As we resign from moving our crews around, our positions are easier to predict. It is not another "click and win" as we need to do a lot of thinking in here.

    I also imaginet hat this could be easy to add to the game as it just require diging animation and some sandbags models that are in the game already.

    6 CP - Osttruppen Packages - Unlocks more options for osttrrupen improvments. We have now not only mg but also 2 additional options so ost can fill more roles then just basic infantry. It require 6 CP so it is hard to try to overwhelm oponents and is ment to be used as reaction to battlefield conditions.

    AT package - adds 1 At rifle (PzB39) to the team and ost recive ability to use AT rifle grandes. This abilty makes everyone (except the guy with PzB39) fire a single AT grande at selected location. This ability is not guided (like other AT grandes) so aiming is key here. This ability has long range. It is somewhat effective agaist structures and can damage infantry (yet it is not effective agaist them). The abilty requiers aming, planing and rewards player for good play. If this package is bought it removes the panzerfaust. I will sugest the cost of package to 40 ammo.

    Mp40 package - adds x4 mp 40 submachineguns to the team so ost can be used in more close range fashion. They are still only cheap cannon fodder and do not perform well with out of cover but now ost do better in towns and other close range scenarios as defensive unit. They are still very fragile and do not do well in open terrain.
    Adds M24 grande trow. I will sugest the cost of package to 60 ammo as soviet equivalent for consripts cost the same.

    This feture is easy to add to the game as models and animations are already in the game. This packages allow our ost spam to be more customisable in the late game and allow our infantry to adapt to the battlefield conditions.

    8 CP - Hetzer - calls in hetzer SPG we had in CoH1. This unit is an emergency alternative in case we are losing badly. Hetzers were designed to be cheap tank destroyer capable to fight off hordes of Shermans and T-34s to save resources in late stage of war.
    Hetzer cost 300 manpower and 60 fuel, recharge of 3 mins.
    Hetzer has small firepower yet it is enough to grind down T-34 in numberous shots. (in reality hetzer had low fire power too)
    Hetzer is slow so it is hard to be used as offensive weapon (in reality hetzer was slow too)
    Hetzer front armor is tough but it sides are very vulnerable (as in reality)
    Hetzers cheap price allow it to be deployed even in most dire games when Wermaht is in losing position
    Hetzer require 8 CP so it is hard to rush it as first armored unit
    Hetzer can become invisible (in reality small size of hetzer allowed it to easly be hidden).
    Top mount Mg 42 is added when vet 3 is achived.
    Hetzer is bad alternative for other German tanks and it is expected to be used when the player is short on fuel and did not build T3 building, what is common for germans players in attempt to rush a Panther.
    Hetzer on its own is very weak and requires support from sourounding units.

    I imagine that it is easy to add as we have flampanzer hetzer in OKW. It requires new statistic and shoting animation but i bet it is easier then making it out of nothing. I hope that we will have oportunity to play with this iconic vehicle of ww2.

    12 CP - railway arty support - Ability we have today, nothing to explain. It is an ability that allows us to use ammunition and destroy some static defense on the map.

    The doctrine is somewhat ammo intense and has a denfense supported with numberous ost. Also your ost spam now has some customisation later on in the game. Being overwhelmed by armor? you can buy your ost some AT! Overspamed by shock troops? Mp40 can add some close range claw to your fellows. Hetzer is always there to call if you were cought with your pants down and no tank alternative as your panther rush failed.

    The doctrine adds a lot of freshness to the game and has uniqe gamestyle of its own. I hope that it will be added to the game despite of having so much new content.

  • #9
    1 year ago

    One commander which ive never seen used is the German Infantry doctrine so here is my idea to revamp it.

    Revamp idea
    2cp Grenadier assault rifle package
    2cp infiltration grenades
    6cp Stug III ausf E
    8cp valiant assault
    12cp fragmentation bomb

  • #10
    1 year ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 346

    @SomeguyfromIdaho I like it but I'd rather see stormtroopers in place of the infiltration grenades. That way we'd get a unit that's always handy rather than an ability that can only be used occasionally while maintaining the infantry focus of the commander.

    Following on in the theme of commanders having units that suit their doctrine, can we please see all Artillery Field Officers moved to commanders who have the leFH18 in their roster? What is the point of having an Artillery Field Officer if you don't actually have any artillery? Yes, I'm aware they can direct other units to fire but, they really belong with commanders who actually have artillery.

  • #11
    1 year ago

    @PanzerFutz They're Artillery Field Officers because they can call off-map mortar strikes and smoke strikes for a very low cost. And they perform very well as Frontline Infantry because of their MP40s and in tandem with Diversion and Focus fire, they become very tanky.

    Also, the Artillery Field Officer is an important factor in tank combat since they can boost their Rate of fire by 13%/25% at Vet 3 with Focus Fire. Their only LefH-related ability is just victor target. (Which works with Panzerwerfers as well, so you can actually double the fire rate of the Panzerwerfer using Victor Target, forcing it to fire their barrage two times regardless of whether it is on cooldown or not.)

  • #12
    1 year ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 346

    @MSAF_Unbekannt_15 Yup, I'm aware of all that because they're one of my favourite units - they are very versatile with lots of value-adding when they're on the field.

    My point was that this revamp is about improving commanders and making their abilities and units suit their doctrine. In my opinion, pairing artillery pieces with artillery officers makes a lot of sense (even though that officer is useful for a lot of other things). It's the same as giving infantry commanders infantry units and abilities which suit infantry tactics; or, giving tank commanders tank units and abilities which suit tank warfare.

    In my opinion, one of the problems with the commanders is that the developers have tried to make them too even, too bland by giving them a patchwork of units and abilties. Some commanders are great - everything they have suits their doctrine. Others are not very good at all - saddled with units or abilities which either don't fit their doctrine or are not very useful in the first place.

    I guess I'm coming at this from a streamlining POV - getting rid of abilities which don't add much to a commander's repertoire and replacing them with units which really add value. For instance, when I look at the infantry commanders, I wonder why more of them don't have Stormtroopers, Jaegers or Assault Grenadiers instead of Ostruppen or Relief Infantry. Ostruppen are a poor substitute for frontline infantry, good for spamming and remanning guns without crews. Do we really need more than one commander that uses them? I'd prefer to see more than one commander using Assault Grenadiers.

    If you look at @someguyfromidaho's idea, it's great. It just needs a high-quality infantry unit instead of a low-quality ability like Infiltration Grenades, in my opinion. I'd like to see more of that in this revamp - swapping out low quality for high quality and making commanders specialists in their chosen doctrine. I just hope I'm not the only one that feels this way.

  • #13
    1 year ago
    MSAF_Unbekannt_15MSAF_Unbe… Posts: 64
    edited July 2018
    @PanzerFutz There is an added risk on unintended balance issues when mixing around abilities from different commanders wholesale. For example, Hull-down and Artillery Field Officer should never be in the same commander. The added reload bonuses from those two abilities combined would turn tank guns into literal autocannons with a stock -33/45% reload speed from the get go.

    Another unholy combination is Hull down and Spotting scopes. These two should not be in the same commander because they compliment each other too much. Together, they give a hulled down tank +100% sight range, + 25% range and +20% reload speeds and + 25% damage resistance. This makes the tank completely self sufficient and difficult to counter.

    As another general guideline, ensure that Commander Abilities do not stack each other too much or it would cause more optimization issues (Like the Sherman M4A3 (76mm) with its potential -80% reload speed.

    I also wish to suggest replacing Relief Infantry ability with Recoup losses (OKW) where instead of getting Osttruppen for every 4 combat losses, you get 23mp for every combat loss while the ability is active.

    The only other alternative is getting an additional fresh Grenadier Squad for every 6 squad members lost.

    Recoup Losses seem like a valid replacement for Relief Infantry as it reduces manpower bleed in combat engagements at the cost of munitions, an already very important resource for the Ostheer.
  • #14
    1 year ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 346

    @MSAF_Unbekannt_15 You know this game a lot better than I do. I can see you're the person to ask when it comes to the particulars.

    From my POV, Hull Down and Artillery Officer don't belong in the same doctrine because, Hull Down is a defensive Armor ability, while Artillery Field Officer belongs with the artillery commanders. I didn't even conceive of the stacking issues.

    Hull Down and Spotting Scopes is a little trickier because, they're both Armor abilities. I guess the way I would resolve it is by giving Hull Down to the Festung/defensive Armor commanders and Spotting Scopes to the offensive/assault Armor commanders.

    I would hope the developers know their own craft well enough to avoid these issues but, the Sherman issue suggests they still make the occasional mistake.

    It's true that Recoup Losses is better than Relief Infantry but, they both still suffer from the need to remember to activate them while you're simultaneously doing ten other things in the middle of a big, hairy battle. I'd rather it was a toggle ability so I don't have to even think about it while I'm overloaded with other tasks. Most of the time I either forget to use it or I activate it at the end of a battle and not enough men die to trigger the call-in. Either way it seems to me like a waste of a valuable slot in a commander's roster that could be filled by something I'll actually use.

  • #15
    1 year ago
    @PanzerFutz
    To convert the ability to a Toggle would be difficult to code into the game system as a passive commander ability since not many/none actually have toggle functions.

    In order to take full advantage of a Relief Infantry/Rapid Conscription Ability, it is best used in conjunction with mobile reinforcement points like Halftracks and reinforcement bunkers and should be activated at the start of your attacks/push.

    The Halftracks will allow you to sustain losses and still remain in combat by reinforcing the infantry while they are still fighting the enemy. You get to prolong the conflict, gaining xp while also getting relief infantry as compensation for staying in combat and reinforcing your infantry for a relatively cheap manpower cost for the amount of extra infantry you get in the end.

    Relief Infantry is an offensive failsafe ability first and foremost, and also a defensive failsafe ability facilitated by reinforcement points which capitalize on the ability.
  • #16
    1 year ago

    I don't really care if it's included as part of a revamp or as part of a new commander entirely, but I think it might be interesting to see either the OST or OKW receive a commander that includes an anti-tank rifle ability. Just a thought.

  • #17
    1 year ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 346
    edited July 2018

    @MSAF_Unbekannt_15 I agree they can't really change it to a toggle ability but, they could make the duration longer (2 minutes, like sector artillery) so a player could activate it before contact and not have time run out before the battle ends. However, that's not really my point.

    My point is this: you are still replacing higher quality units with the lowest quality infantry unit the Germans have. They're not even as useful as Soviet Conscripts because, they can't be folded into other units. To me, Relief Infantry just doesn't make sense for a faction which has half-tracks and bunkers that can reinforce units all over the map. The Soviets need Rapid Conscription because they don't have as many reinforcement options but, Conscripts can reinforce almost any unit.

    A corollary to this point is that, out of the 9 infantry units available to Ostheer commanders, 5 of them are Osttruppen. I'd like to see that changed. I'd rather see 6 first-class infantry units available and have only 3 Osttruppen units. The Osttruppen commander obviously needs them and the Mobile Defense commander could keep his but other commanders would work better with first-class infantry instead.

    For example, if the Lightning War commander's Relief Infantry was replaced by Assault Grenadiers, they would suit the doctrine much better. Assault Grenadiers are made for fast attacks and assaults. Sure, Relief Infantry can help with those too but, one unit is "A grade" and the other is "D grade". A player is literally degrading his army by replacing his best infantry with his worst.

    Another example would be replacing the Relief Infantry of the German Infantry commander with a Jaeger Command Squad. The Jaeger's veteran ability of a spotting flare would sure come in handy when using those juicy strike packages and, if infantry tactics is your specialty, it makes sense to have a first class infantry unit as a part of your roster.

    Finally, I would suggest that it makes more sense to swap the Festung Support commander's Relief Infantry with the Artillery Field Officer of the Osttruppen commander. The A.F.O. fits in better with the Support doctrine and the Osttruppen Relief Infantry are right at home under the Osttruppen commander.

    The theme running through my posts to these revamp threads is that all commanders should have units and abilities which suit their doctrine rather than trying to "equalize" them by spreading the less useful units and abilities amongst them. In my opinion, the whole idea of the commanders is to have them specialize in particular ways that allow different players to choose which commanders suit their style of play.

    If some commanders are weaker or less popular than others, the answer is to replace them with better versions, not nobble the good ones. They don't even have to create new units or abilities; they just have to use the better ones more and the weaker ones less.

    I hope I'm making sense and that people don't just think I'm talking out of my arse.

  • #18
    1 year ago

    @PanzerFutz

    Current Scenario
    Relief Infantry is quite powerful. Osttruppen are also a very powerful defensive infantry for their cost. Upgraded with MG42s and at Vet 2, they perform just as well as grenadiers and are dirt cheap. Relief Infantry allows you to lose a maximum of 12 models (Say 12 Grenadier casualties = Total cost to replace 12 models = 30mp x 12 = 360mp)

    Here are the veterancy bonuses of the Osttruppen if you didn't know.
    Vet 0 - +20% Accuracy in cover, +20% received accuracy out of cover.
    Vet 1 - Unlocks Field First Aid
    Vet 2 - +40% Accuracy, -25% Panzerfaust Recharge Downtime
    Vet 3 - -20% Rifle Cooldown and -28.5% Received Accuracy

    At Vet 2, Osttruppen has +60% accuracy in cover and with MG42s that is very powerful. They certainly are not D-grade soldiers, they're just not meant for offensive combat. They're garrison troops.

    360mp for 3 Osttruppen squads is pretty neat. With Mobile reinforcement points, you can lose as many models as you want (so long as your squad stays alive) and still get net positive returns for losing infantry members.

    Alternate Scenario I - Change Relief Infantry to grant Grenadier Squads
    If we modify it such that Relief Infantry grants 1 full grenadier squad for every 6 combat losses to a maximum of 12 losses per ability tick (Say 6 Grenadier casualties = 30mp x 12 =420mp), you still win against the manpower bleed by getting 2 free grenadier squads just by replacing your lost men for a discounted reinforcement cost. This would work for its cost of 90 munitions.

    Alternate Scenario II - Change Relief Infantry to Recoup Losses
    Recoup Losses is cheaper at 50 munitions.

    It provides a tick of 20mp for every squad member killed. If 12 grenadier models were killed, it would cost 30 x 12 = 420mp to reinforce them. Activating this ability for 50 munitions while the models died would lower the reinforcement cost to (30-20mp) x 12 = 120mp (Saving you 300mp).

    This single ability change would revamp many original Ostheer Commanders so it is a valid point

    Also, while specialization is a concept to hold in many commanders, it is important that commanders remain versatile in their own ability pool. A very specialized ability pool would make for poor optimization and becomes too linear. A key concept in Commander Design is that while the abilities hold a theme to the Commander's playstyle, it should also work for other situations that stem out of the Commander's playstyle. This is why some abilities overlap on different commanders. They just make Commanders more versatile and more difficult to counter than a specialist-designed Commander.

  • #19
    1 year ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 346

    I guess that's the thing about these revamps and updates, everybody comes at them from their own perspective. The suggestions players make reflect the style in which they play. Everything you've said is valid but, I think there's validity in what I'm saying too.

    For instance, in the game Osttruppen are pretty close to Grenadiers in quality; in real life, they couldn't hold a candle to them - they were very much "D grade" infantry. They formed the bulk of the Atlantic Wall's coastal divisions because, most lacked the will to fight outside of fortifications and they often surrendered at the first opportunity.

    I certainly prefer Recoup Losses to Relief Infantry. Relief Infantry only allows you to replace like-for-like if you're losing Grenadiers or Osttruppen. If you're losing Panzer Grenadiers or Pioneers, then what you're getting back can't do the job of what you've lost. At least with Recoup Losses, a player can cover the manpower cost of replacing those lost units a bit better.

    I still think the Germans could use some more infantry units so, I'll expand on my point about the German commanders by comparing them to the Soviets.

    The Germans commanders have 13 Infantry units (including Relief Infantry x3); the Soviets have 16 (including Rapid Conscription x3). The Germans get more tanks so the raw number isn't that important. However, while the Ostheer only gets 1 Assault Grenadier unit, the Soviets get 6 Shock Troops (their direct equivalent in combat roles). This is quite a disparity. The Soviets get 4 Guards Infantry units while the Ostheer only gets 2 Stormtrooper units. Not as big a difference but still twice as many.

    Now, it does go both ways. The Ostheer has 4 Artillery Field Officers and they are very powerful units because, they add so much value through their special abilities. The Soviets have no officer units at all. For my part, I'd like to see some balance applied in this instance by the introduction of Commissar Squads to a couple of Soviet commanders.

    However, I would like to see more high quality infantry units on Ostheer commanders rosters as well. Getting rid of some Relief Infantry units just seems to be the most expedient way to do it. I really can't see anything else that could give way but, I will admit that I don't really use Relief Infantry where others might. It doesn't suit my playstyle in the way that having more specialist infantry units would.

    I expect other players will feel differently.

  • #20
    1 year ago
    MSAF_Unbekannt_15MSAF_Unbe… Posts: 64
    edited August 2018
    @PanzerFutz

    Relief Infantry will always give a net positive outcome the more combat losses you gain and also gives you additional squads the more individual models you lose.

    Say you lose 4 Panzergrenadiers and get an Osttruppen Squad (34mp x 4 = 136mp) It is still cheaper than the 200mp cost of Osttruppen.
    Say you lose 4 Pioneers and get an Osttruppen Squad (25mp x 4 = 100mp) It is also still cheaper than a 200mp cost of Osttruppen.

    Recoup Losses do not give a net positive outcome the more combat losses you gain but rather blankets the manpower bleed. You will still end up losing manpower even with Recoup Losses active.

    Say you lose 4 Panzergrenadiers:
    34mp x 4 = 136mp
    Recoup Losses = 20mp x 4 = 80mp.
    Net = -56mp. You actually lose MP when using recoup losses.

    Say you lose 4 Pioneers:
    25mp x 4 = 100mp
    Recoup Losses = 20mp x 4 = 80mp
    Net = -20mp. You actually lose MP when using recoup losses

    My final suggestion is to provide a fresh grenadier squad for every 6 combat losses when "Relief Infantry" is active to a total of 12 casualties as a cap (Providing a maximum of 2 fresh grenadier squads).


    Regarding the reason behind so many soviet call-ins

    The main reason why the Soviets have so many call-in infantry is because their non-doctrinal infantry and armour do not scale well against the ostheer and OKW and are generally of very poor quality. Each Faction has a very different design build in mind.

    Soviets generally cannot play up to par without their call ins which is why they understandably have the most number of call-in infantry units in the game. Ostheer on the other hand, do not need commander call-in units to play competitively. This is also the only faction that can play without the need for call-ins because all their non-doctrinal units already fill one or more of that role.

    Guards Infantry follow the same combat role as Grenadiers and they are call in infantry while Grenadiers are non-doctrinal infantry. Both are capable of soft-countering enemy armour and hard-countering infantry squads from range. Shock Troops follow the same combat role as Panzergrenadiers, (Not Assault Grenadiers) and they are call-in infantry while Panzergrenadiers are non-doctrinal infantry. Both are capable of assaulting enemy infantry, although Panzergrenadiers are better because they have the mid-range advantage as well as the ability to upgrade with Panzerschrecks while Shock troops have no way of countering armour. Assault Grenadiers are actually on a lower tier and at the same tier as Conscripts with 3x PPsh.

    For the Soviets, doctrinal infantry and armour play a crucial role in the game because their non-doctrinal options are all of a lower quality than anything the Ostheer has non-doctrinally.

    - Soviets do not have a non-doctrinal infantry option that has the same raw stopping power as the Grenadier squad. (Conscripts and Penal Squads will always lose a direct firefight with a Grenadier squad equipped with MG42s.)
    - Soviets do not have a non-doctrinal assault infantry option at all. (None, unless you include Flamethrowers)
    - Soviets do not have a non-doctrinal Main Battle Tank that can stand toe to toe with a Panzer IV one on one.
    - The Soviets have a very impressive array of AT options, which is why there are no powerful AT call ins for the soviet. (ZiS-3, SU-76, SU-85)

    Ostheer already has those options as a non-doctrinal choice and they are objectively better than non-doctrinal Soviet counterparts in all aspects. Ostheer Commanders are designed to follow a role that enhances the versatility of non-doctrinal units and providing the occasional call-in to promote a level of flair and unique alternative side-grades rather giving a higher tier unit that Soviet Commanders give. On the other hand, Soviet Commanders are hard-pressed designed to provide players with a specific unit type that locks them out of a better unit option in another aspect of combat.

    Some examples are shown below.

    Ostheer Call-in Examples
    - Stormtroopers are no better than Grenadiers in combat if used improperly without their upgrades and unique traits.
    - Mortar Halftracks are no better (worse actually) than normal Mortars and their only true niche is their flame ability and lower parabolic trajectory [Shells reach the ground faster].
    - StuG III Ausf E is no better than the Ostwind at killing enemy infantry.
    - Assault Grenadiers are a temporary infantry option that allows you to get early assault infantry that cannot scale into mid-game or late game like the non-doctrinal Panzergrenadier.

    All Ostheer Call-ins are side-grades of already available non-doctrinal units. (With the exception of Heavy Tanks like the Tiger)


    Soviet Call-in Examples
    - Soviets who choose Guard Commanders will not be able to get Assault Infantry (Like Shock Troops) that is on par with the non-doctrinal Panzergrenadier.
    - Soviets who choose Shock Troop Commanders will not be able to get rifle infantry (Like the Guards) that is on par with the Grenadier.
    - Commanders with T34/85s and IS-2s generally come with only 1 of the two Elite Infantry options (Shock Troops or Guards).


    To summarise, Ostheer does not need call-in infantry as much as the soviets who literally rely entirely on Call-in Infantry to gain the upper hand.

    Essentially,
    Ostheer = High quality non-doctrinal units, sidegrade call-in Infantry and High Quality call-in Armour.
    Soviets = Lower than average non-doctrinal units, Very High quality call-in Infantry and Armour.

    There is no disparity. There is only a difference in faction design that has been so prevalent in these opposing factions since Beta.
  • #21
    1 year ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 346

    @MSAF_Unbekannt_15 From my perspective, all you're proving is how unrealistic this game is. It's clearly designed to entertain "capture the flag" enthusiasts without much reference to historical reality beyond the names of units.

    In real life, no commander would have chosen Osttruppen over Panzergrenadiers and no commander would have thought they were an adequate substitute. If they're even close in the game, it's because the designers have chosen to ignore reality. Osttruppen were even more famous for surrendering than the French. If Osttruppen were designed with a 50% chance of fleeing the battlefield at the first taste of combat, it would be a lot more realistic and players would be a lot less enthusiastic about using them.

    In real life, Shock Troops and Assault Grenadiers filled exactly the same combat role. That's why they're both armed with sub-machine guns and anti-infantry grenades. If they're not designed to do the same thing in the game, it's because the designers have chosen to ignore reality.

    As for what occurs in the game, we're doing different math.

    When I lose a Panzer-grenadier unit, I see that it costs me 360 MP to buy a new one. If I get 80 MP back from Recoup Losses, it effectively only costs me 280 MP to buy a replacement unit. If I lose a Pioneer unit, it costs me 200 MP to buy a new one. With Recoup Losses, it effectively costs me 120 MP to buy a replacement unit. Those cost reductions come in very handy when manpower is tight.

    With Relief Infantry, if I lose a Pioneer unit, I'm getting some nice cheap infantry that can't build bunkers or repair things. They are useful for holding the line in battle but, I'm still going to have to buy more Pioneers. If Population is tight, I'm going to end up suiciding those Osttruppen to make way for the Pioneers so, their relative cheapness isn't going to mean much to me. I do use Pioneers/Engineers as close assault troops because of their flamethrowers so, while they fill a different combat role to Osttruppen, I still count them as a combat unit.

    I do take your point about the design of the Soviet faction and I'm not asking for a blanket equalization. I merely wished to point out that, while they are different, there is some wriggle room in revamping the commanders' rosters for both factions.

    Also, everything you've said is true, except perhaps this: "The Soviets have a very impressive array of AT options, which is why there are no powerful AT call ins for the soviets." I'm kind of surprised you don't count the ISU-152 as a powerful AT call-in. For me, it's the Soviet's most powerful AT unit of all.

  • #22
    1 year ago
    MSAF_Unbekannt_15MSAF_Unbe… Posts: 64
    edited July 2018

    @PanzerFutz The ISU-152 Assault Gun is more of a Main Battle Tank in a Tank Destroyer Chassis. It's akin to having a Tiger I with a fixed gun turret since its rounds have a HE payload as well as an AP payload, AT units only have AP payloads as stock.

    Nevertheless, the mathematics is sound because losing squads is supposed to be more expensive, but losing individual models in a squad over-time makes it very cheap. One core essence of the game is to not lose squads, which is why I used the former math in conjunction with Relief Infantry changes.

    Also,

    • Osttruppen can build bunkers. They can even build sandbags, trenches and barbed wire if the right Commander is used.
    • The game is not meant to reflect reality. If it did, Tigers would die to 1 hit from a Firefly. Panzer IV's would be inferior to the T34/76. All units would die in 1 hit. [It takes 5 hits from a Kar98k to kill a model, hardly seems like reality [16 damage x 5 = 80HP, standard health of infantry models]
    • The game is designed this way so it becomes more balanced and people can enjoy the game more. Mods are there to facilitate the 'reality' minded players, like Spearhead Mods for example.

    Really, the majority of the patch changes since time immemorial were meant for Automatch players and competitive play since VP conditions are the main essence of the original game and in tournaments before Custom Games were implemented years after the game's release. That will and always has been the main focus of balance patches and revamps. Historical reference is non-existent in the game ever since the Theatre of War campaigns since you can buy Pumas, G43s, STG44s and Panzerschrecks in 1941.

    I am impartial in seeing Assault Grenadiers on other Commanders as it can be an interesting build-up. The only issue we can see is that there are overlaps of roles that do not add much to the table.

    Some options I can see Assault Grenadiers being viable are

    • German Infantry Doctrine [Replacing Relief Infantry]
    • German Mechanized Doctrine [Replacing LMG Grenadiers with Assault Grenadiers into 250/or 251 Halftrack]
    • Spearhead Doctrine [Replacing 250/7 Mortar Halftrack]

    On every other commander, there is either already a doctrinal replacement for Assault Grenadiers or that it doesn't synergise well with other abilities and doesn't belong in its theme. Considering that G43s are already available on many Ostheer Commanders as an alternative to assault infantry since they have the carbine weapon trait, which makes them take less accuracy loss while moving and gain a very increased Rate of Fire the closer they are and with less accuracy at long range compared to Kar98ks, they fill the role of assault infantry upgrades for many commanders.

  • #23
    1 year ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 346
    edited July 2018

    @MSAF_Unbekannt_15 All good points. Am I mistaken in thinking the bunker-building for Osttruppen is a recent change? I seem to remember them not having this ability when I first started playing but, I could be mistaken.

    Too true about games and 1 hit kills. I tried playing "Medal of Honor: Frontline" once with it set to "any hit kills" and I couldn't even make it off the beach. I died horrendously many times before I gave up.

    I guess I'll always see this game a bit differently. I don't really like Victory Point games; it's just a mechanism for limiting the duration of games and doesn't model real battles very well. There are historical examples of battles like that but, they're often examples of how not to do it (e.g. all the battles in Vietnam where the Americans won fights over hills only to abandon them a few weeks later because they had no strategic value). I prefer Annihilation because it's closer to the way most battles in WW2 were fought.

    To be honest, I'm not that big a fan of Assault Grenadiers. I don't like Shock Troops that much either. Their lower susceptibility to suppression seems to be their best trait. For the Mechanized Doctrine, Jaegers would be my choice but, there may be issues you're aware of that I'm not. I really only want to see one or two more German infantry call-ins.

    With Relief Infantry, my main complaint is that it doesn't last long enough (and that I frequently forget to use it). However, I would still suicide Osttruppen to make way for better units under certain conditions. I'd usually charge them into a group I wish to barrage so the enemy units stay put long enough to get hit.

    I don't know if we're boring the other players reading these posts but, I'm certainly learning a lot from you. Thanks for that. B)

  • #24
    1 year ago
    VATSVATS Posts: 15
    edited August 2018

    German Infantry Doctrine

    [0CP]
    (Passive)
    Ambush Camouflage.
    Grenadiers, Panzer Grenadiers and MG42s can be upgraded with better camouflage, concealing them in cover and deep snow.

    • Cost 30 munitions to upgrade.

    [2CP]
    (Passive)
    Model 24 grenade.

    • Allows Grenadiers to use Model 24 "Potato Masher" grenade instead of Rifle grenade.
    • Cost 25 munitions.

    [2CP]
    Call-in Artillery Field Officer.
    An Artillery Field Officer specializing in supporting troops is allocated to your command.

    • Cost 240 manpower.

    [7CP]
    (Passive)
    Infantry Reserve.
    Command releases reserve infantry, the Grenadiers squad size is now increased.

    • Grenadiers squad size is now increased by 1.

    [12CP]
    Railway Artillery Support.
    A Railway gun will fire three large caliber shells into the designated area, causing massive damage to any unit that is in the area.

    • Cost 200 munitions.
    • Fires 3 shells at target area.

    German Infantry Doctrine
    The German Infantry Doctrine giving a significant boost to Ostheer infantry but decreasing the late-game armour potential. An excellent balance of attack/defense capabilities gives opportunity to ambush and flank enemy troops while Artillery Officer provides accuracy aura for dealing with infantry. If situation on the frontline goes tie, additional infantry reserve and Railway Artillery Support will help you to push forward.

  • #25
    1 year ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 346

    @VATS Sprint is part of Ambush Training. No need to have it as a separate ability.

    Railway Artillery is really powerful but really slow. It's good for destroying buildings and bridges but, it's often a waste on anything that can move. IMO, it doesn't really suit the fluid nature of Infantry tactics. It's a better choice for a defensive commander.

  • #26
    1 year ago
    VATSVATS Posts: 15

    Festung armour Doctrine

    [0CP]
    (Passive)
    Heavy Fortifications.

    • Pioneers can construct Tank Traps, Flak Emplacements, and Trenches.

    [4CP]
    Ju 87 Stuka Smoke Bombs.
    A plane drops huge smoke bombs into the designated area, blocking line of sight for a short period of time.

    • Cost 50 munitions.

    [5CP]
    (Passive)
    Hull Down.

    • An upgrade that can be used by Pioneers, Grenadiers and Panzergrenadiers, allowing them to build defensive sandbags around your tanks, making them immobile yet giving them more protection from enemy fire, increased accuracy, and quicker reload times.
    • The tanks can break cover and move at any time.

    [8CP]
    (Passive)
    LeFH 18 Artillery.
    Allows construction of an on-map artillery piece. This light 10.5cm Field Howitzer doesn't have the destructive power of some Soviet artillery, but it counters with a good rate of fire and reasonably long range.

    • Pioneers can now build 105-mm Field Artillery.
    • Cost 400 manpower and 50 fuel.

    [9CP]
    Call-in Command Panzer IV unit.
    With a smaller HE cannon than the standard PIV, the Command Tank is more effective against infantry but can only threaten lightly armored vehicles. The Command Tank also gives a defensive bonus to units residing in its aura.

    • Cost 360 manpower and 125 fuel.

    Festung armour Doctrine.
    Now this doctrine gives you an opportunity to going "turtle mode". Dropping your attack potential to minimum at early-mid game, but turning your frontline into a heavy fortified area. Pioneers now are more valuable unit because of their new abilites by constructing FLAK emplacements, defensive positions and field artillery to cover the nearby area. Panzer IV and Ju 87 Stuka Smoke Bombs provide more survivability to your army.

  • #27
    1 year ago
    Hagen67483Hagen67483 Posts: 195

    Osttruppen-Commander

    I want to propose 2 possible changes:
    1. Give the officer the ability to upgrade the MP40s of his soldiers with MP44s (how many should be decided by the balance team) but make T4 tech a requirement like the MG of the Osttruppen.
    2. Scrap the Sandbags and trench commander ability and just give the ability to build them as standard to the Osttruppen Squads. As a replacment I think the puma call in would fit, because this would allow the player to skip T3 and aim for T4 with greater savety.

    I dont think both changes should be done, because they would make the commander to strong.

  • #28
    1 year ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 346

    @Hagen67483 There's a discussion of your second suggestion over on the Wehrmacht/OKW Swaps thread. Giving Osttruppen some defensive building ability would affect more than just the Osttruppen commander but, in my opinion, it would be a net positive. It would make the commanders with Osttruppen a more attractive option.

  • #29
    1 year ago

    @SomeguyfromIdaho said:
    One commander which ive never seen used is the German Infantry doctrine so here is my idea to revamp it.

    Revamp idea
    2cp Grenadier assault rifle package
    2cp infiltration grenades
    6cp Stug III ausf E
    8cp valiant assault
    12cp fragmentation bomb

    After some thought I am making some adjustments my revamp Idea for German Infantry doctrine (GID).

    Which in my opinion GID should focus on Aggressive well supported Grenadier squads supported by pioneers and weapon teams to gain and maintain map control until the tanks arrive to finish off your opponent.

    1cp: Pioneer smoke grenades Allows pioneers to throw smoke to support your assaults, cover retreating units, and/or just allow them to get up close without getting shot to pieces. Giving pioneers a brand new way to support your army all game long.

    2cp: Grenadiers Assault Rifle Package gives grenadiers two Stg-44 for a increase in DPS primarily in med to close range. Allowing Grens to be a cheaper alternative to Pgrens for mobile high DPS Troopers, and thus allowing the player to use Pgrens solely for AT or to skip Pgrens, and invest into other units, building, and/or teching up.

    6cp: Stug III ausf E Cheap Anti-infantry tank support your troops not as good a Sturmpanzer, but can still do the job without breaking the bank.

    8cp valiant assault Powerful move that makes infantry are more Accurate and sprint perfect for comebacks or solidifying your lead if you know how to use it.

    12cp: fragmentation bomb a left over from the original GID good ability its a keeper IMO.

    what does everybody think?

  • #30
    1 year ago
    MSAF_Unbekannt_15MSAF_Unbe… Posts: 64
    edited August 2018

    Motorized Infantry Doctrine
    Concept: Motorized Infantry and Armour played a critical role on all German campaigns and became the quintessential role model for mobile warfare. Motorized armour reserves allow for rapid movement of armour supported by specially trained Schützen-Infanterie. When a breakthrough has been established, the Pzkfw Tiger can be deployed to crush any remaining resistance.

    [0CP]
    Opel Blitz Transport
    Opel Blitz Transports can now be called-in.

    • [200MP/10F]
    • Two Transport Slots
    • Closed-top
    • Can carry Mortars, Snipers, MG42 Teams, Raketenwerfer 43s, Infantry
    • Reinforce-capable after Battlephase I

    [0CP]
    Motorized Reserves
    Additional early-war Motorized reserves are now available for deployment.

    • Panzer II Luchse Tanks can now be built in the Leichte Mechanized Kompanie [280mp/50F]
    • 250 Halftracks can now be built in the Leichte Mechanized Kompanie. [200MP]
    • Panzer IV Ausf F1 can now be built in the Support Armour Korps [300MP/100F] - Replaces Panzer IV Ausf H [Individual Tank Upgrade to Ausf H available for 50MP/20F]

    [2CP]
    Schützen Combat Package
    Infantry Squads can now be equipped with additional equipment and motorized tactics.

    • Pioneer squads can now be upgraded with 2x PzB-39 Anti-Tank Rifles. [60 munitions]
    • Grenadiers and Panzergrenadiers can perform rudimentary repairs. [-33% repair rate compared to Pioneers]
    • Infantry squads can now lay schu-mines and deploy tank traps. [30 munitions per Schu mine]

    [4CP]
    Tactical Movement
    All Infantry Squads can now move at maximum speed.

    • No change

    [13CP]
    Tiger I
    “Oh Ka Vey [OKW] has released a Tiger for our use”. – Wolf Kahler

    • No change

    Heavily inspired by the Panzer Elite from CoH 1.

  • #31
    1 year ago
    MSAF_Unbekannt_15MSAF_Unbe… Posts: 64
    edited August 2018

    @SomeguyfromIdaho

    I like what is shown on paper and based on field-testing on Cheat Command Matches, I can make an objective report on your commander design build.

    1. Pioneer Smoke Grenades

    I found that there is an alternate way to tweak this such that it benefits the Ostheer. One minor change I would recommend is providing infantry squads [Grenadiers, Panzergrenadiers] with a (UKF Smoke Raid Variant) Smoke grenade which makes this ability much more viable in more combat scenarios. This smoke grenade, unlike ordinary smoke grenades, do not obscure vision and instead provide light cover, even on areas with negative cover. [E.g. Roads, Open ground]

    Obscuring smoke barrages are already available on Mortar Crews for free so that option is still available to the Ostheer. Instead, giving early-war tools for Pioneers like the PzB-39 also allows a doctrinal counter to soft-skinned light armour early in the game and allow them to vet up to Vet 3 faster, getting that repair speed buff.

    1. Grenadier Assault Package

    G43 Rifles already fulfill the role of Assault-weapons and are cheaper for what they do as well considering that G43s have the carbine weapon profile like the SVT-40, StG44 and M1A1 Carbine. Because of this, all weapons with the Carbine trait will fire extremely fast in close quarters and do not lose as much accuracy while moving while suffering severe accuracy penalties at long range compared to weapons in the bolt action and SMG class, which scales to long range and CQB accordingly. Even G43s were deadly when combined with Valiant Assault [+25% Accuracy and Sprint]

    1. StuG III Ausf E

    No argument here. The StuG III Ausf E has however been buffed recently and actually has a much more powerful explosive yield now, essentially firing mini-howitzer shells with a steep parabolic trajectory compared to the original StuG III Ausf E [Similar to the Brummbar's projectile].

    1. Valiant Assault

    Concept: +25% Accuracy, All units will sprint. [70 munitions]
    Essentially turns all Infantry units into aimbotters for 45 seconds. I am neutral about this but there is a issue here considering that Pioneer MP40s essentially become StG44s for 45 seconds. StG44s become a nightmare at all ranges and Grenadier MG42s become very deadly. If the duration was set to 30 seconds, I would be more acceptable of this change. If not, this can be reasonably replaced with the cheaper and more accessible Tactical Movement for 20 seconds.

    1. Fragmentation Bombing

    No argument here. Note that Fragmentation Bombing is available at [10CP] and is already an excellent tool to use when fighting both infantry and armour.

    My final input of the German Infantry Doctrine.

    [0CP]
    Infantry Combat Package
    - Pioneers, Grenadiers and Panzergrenadiers can now use Smoke Grenades to generate temporary light cover.
    - Pioneers can now be upgraded with 2x PzB-39 AT rifles [60 munitions]

    [2CP]
    Jaeger Light Infantry Upgrade
    - Grenadiers, Panzergrenadiers and Stormtroopers can now be equipped with G43 Rifles. Includes interrogation training.

    [4CP]
    Tactical Movement
    - Infantry squads can now move at maximum speed.

    [6CP]
    StuG III Ausf E
    - StuG III Ausf E is now available for deployment.

    [10CP]
    Fragmentation Bombing
    - Fragmentation Bombs are now available for deployment.

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