Wehrmacht Commander Revamp Discsusson

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Comments

  • #32
    1 year ago

    @MSAF_Unbekannt_15

    I like your most of your suggestions especially Pioneer anit-tank rifle idea. However, I disagree with the Jaeger light infantry package:

    1. G43 only out dps stg44 at long range which doesn't matter if we were focused on Long dps just stay LMG42.
    2. STG-grens could be used reduce the need for Pgrens who are expensive, fragile, and inaccurate till vet 3, and most of the time get turned into AT troops.
    3. A problem with most of the commanders of the original two factions is that they share too many abilities we already have two or three commanders with that have g43s, but if the German Infantry doctrine allows Grens to have stg-44 it Immediately becomes unique in the roster.

    Tactical Movement is fine if Valiant assault would be OP perhaps it could be adjust to 75MU for +20% accuracy with 20%
    faster capping speed for 30 to 45 seconds.

    [0CP]
    Infantry Combat Package

    • Pioneers, Grenadiers and Panzergrenadiers can now use Smoke Grenades to generate temporary light cover.
    • Pioneers can now be upgraded with 2x PzB-39 AT rifles [60 munitions]

    [2CP]
    grenadiers Assault Rifle Package

    • Grenadiers can now be equipped with Two STG-44

    [4CP]
    Tactical Movement or Valiant assault [8CP]

    • Infantry squads can now move at maximum speed.

    [6CP]
    StuG III Ausf E

    • StuG III Ausf E is now available for deployment.

    [10CP]
    Fragmentation Bombing

    • Fragmentation Bombs are now available for deployment.
  • #33
    1 year ago
    @SomeguyfromIdaho

    I can see where you are going with this. There are some problems that cannot be seen on paper that I have seen in the test match. I would instead like to address a few issues I did encounter in-game using StG-44 Grenadiers.

    1.
    They become average at all ranges, including close range, believe it or not. Since half the squad has an StG44, and the other half has Kar98ks, they lose out on dps a lot more in mid range and long range and only offer 2dps more than the G43s in close range. With G43s they are given a more optimal spread of damage from close to mid range while still being terrible at long range [G43s fire slower than Kar98ks at long range, almost rapid fire at close range, and scale better with the Kar98ks in the squad at all ranges]

    2.
    G43s are objectively cheaper and pack more versatility in all combat scenarios and ranges. They also share the same trait as other carbine weapons like the StG44 in that they do not lose as much accuracy as bolt actions while moving, fire much slower in long ranges. + 5 second maphacks on casualties.

    3.
    Game design and balancing tend to avoid unit role overlap. If they want to design an ability or unit, it must not make another unit more obsolete a la Panzergrenadier.

    4.
    Grenadiers will bleed a lot more manpower if used as assault troops compared to Panzergrenadiers, believe it or not. [30mp] While Panzergrenadiers are more expensive to reinforce and upkeep [33mp], they receive -16% received accuracy at vet 1 and -16% received accuracy at vet 2, to a total of 32% reduction in received accuracy. Grenadiers only get -25% received accuracy bonuses at Vet 3, making them objectively more fragile than Panzergrenadiers and having less firepower at all ranges except a minor increase in short range dps compared to G43s (16.2 dps~ vs 14.5dps~). G43s make up for it by allowing grenadiers better long range, mid range and comparable short range dps, improving survivability to squad members compared to StG44s.

    I hope you understand why StG44s on Grenadiers are not the best weapon for them in general.

    Footnote: Just in case, I am aware the G43, StG44 and SVT-40 are not carbines. This is simply a weapon trait.
  • #34
    1 year ago

    @MSAF_Unbekannt_15

    I have been unable to test STG-grens in game, and if they are as mediocre as you found them to be I shall concede the Point and just stick with G43s,

  • #35
    1 year ago
    MSAF_Unbekannt_15MSAF_Unbe… Posts: 64
    edited August 2018
    @SomeguyfromIdaho

    A good comparison that already exists in this game would be Panzergrenadiers upgraded with 2x Panzerschrecks. They really become lackluster at all ranges even up close with only 2 StG44s.

    There are a few cheat command mods that allow you to fiddle with infantry options and change their loadouts. Have a look round the Workshop to find some.

    The only way I can see 2x StG 44s being viable in a single squad are the IRNV vampyr version. Those things ignore cover entirely and have a longer effective range than normal StG44s. Still, a bit over the top for your average grenadier and would make allied players very unhappy.

    The overall commander design is still miles better than what it is in the current patch so props to you for that.
  • #36
    1 year ago

    @MSAF_Unbekannt_15

    Thank you. Maybe Grens could get the obers Stg44 (stats not the model), but without the ignore cover keeping the range dps ability for 60-90 Munitions depending on balance. If not G43 are good enough tho I wish G43 were 40MU and just cut out the interrogation training.

  • #37
    1 year ago

    @SomeguyfromIdaho

    G43s are 45 munitions for grenadiers because they are an actual upgrade [45 munitions for 2x] in alpha DPS and also get veterancy accuracy bonuses much earlier whereas Panzergrenadier G43s [60 munitions for 3x] are more of a side-grade, redistributing DPS into an even spread between all ranges and only get veterancy accuracy bonuses at Vet 3. Interrogation is available on both infantry squads either way.

    On another note, do you mind making an objective review on the Motorized Infantry Doctrine suggested beforehand? I would like to hear your thoughts about the overall design of this new commander.

  • #38
    1 year ago

    Blitzkrieg Doctrine:

    Concept: The Blitzkrieg is a German tactic centred in fast attacks with both armoured and mechanized infantry units with the objective of encircle and break the defence of the enemy. This commander is centred in the harassment of enemy supply lines and rapid advancement of both vehicles and infantry units.

    - [0CP] Counter offensive tactic.
    For 35 munitions units can cap territory to neutral faster.

    - [2CP] Panzer tactician.
    Already in this commander, all vehicles have smoke for 30 ammunition.

    -[3CP] Mechanized assault group.
    Call in a sdkf 250 with panzergrenadiers.

    -[9CP] Breakthough.
    Same as the Encirclement Doctrine, vehicles can cap territory for a short period of time

    -[9CP] Command Tank
    Already in this commander, call in a panzer IV that improve close vehicles

  • #39
    1 year ago
    SomeguyfromIdahoSomeguyfr… Posts: 84
    edited August 2018

    @MSAF_Unbekannt_15 said:
    Motorized Infantry Doctrine
    Concept: Motorized Infantry and Armour played a critical role on all German campaigns and became the quintessential role model for mobile warfare. Motorized armour reserves allow for rapid movement of armour supported by specially trained Schützen-Infanterie. When a breakthrough has been established, the Pzkfw Tiger can be deployed to crush any remaining resistance.

    [0CP]
    Opel Blitz Transport
    Opel Blitz Transports can now be called-in.

    • [200MP/10F]
    • Two Transport Slots
    • Closed-top
    • Can carry Mortars, Snipers, MG42 Teams, Raketenwerfer 43s, Infantry
    • Reinforce-capable after Battlephase I

    [0CP]
    Motorized Reserves
    Additional early-war Motorized reserves are now available for deployment.

    • Panzer II Luchse Tanks can now be built in the Leichte Mechanized Kompanie [280mp/50F]
    • 250 Halftracks can now be built in the Leichte Mechanized Kompanie. [200MP]
    • Panzer IV Ausf F1 can now be built in the Support Armour Korps [300MP/100F] - Replaces Panzer IV Ausf H [Individual Tank Upgrade to Ausf H available for 50MP/20F]

    [2CP]
    Schützen Combat Package
    Infantry Squads can now be equipped with additional equipment and motorized tactics.

    • Pioneer squads can now be upgraded with 2x PzB-39 Anti-Tank Rifles. [60 munitions]
    • Grenadiers and Panzergrenadiers can perform rudimentary repairs. [-33% repair rate compared to Pioneers]
    • Infantry squads can now lay schu-mines and deploy tank traps. [30 munitions per Schu mine]

    [4CP]
    Tactical Movement
    All Infantry Squads can now move at maximum speed.

    • No change

    [13CP]
    Tiger I
    “Oh Ka Vey [OKW] has released a Tiger for our use”. – Wolf Kahler

    • No change

    Heavily inspired by the Panzer Elite from CoH 1.

    @MSAF_Unbekannt_15

    (0CP} Opel Blitz Transport
    Tho Im not a fan of unarmed Transports in coh 2 I do like the idea of being able to transport weapon teams. However, one thing I would add is after BattlePhase 2 is researched give it a Forward retreat point Ability combined this with a med bunker, and bam we can start larping as a Western Front army.

    (OCP) Motorized Reserves
    1. Panzer 2 is better armored scout so perfect in my mind, but are there going be adjustments the Veterancy?
    2. Axis clown car sounds fun, and Its amazing that Axis zero access to vehicles that infantry can fight from (outside of Doctines).
    3. Im not sure about the command tank without the Unit Buffs ability, and the existing P4 is ok against infantry. If infantry killing vehicle is what you want perhaps Flammpanzer 38t Hetzer would be a better option.

    (2CP) Schützen Combat Package
    1. For the Pioneers Id like to see the ability for demo charges added with the AT rifle package. Its a great anti-blob, anti tank, and Anti-Structure tool.
    2. Grens and Pgrens can repair sounds great for team games
    3. Schu-mines are great no arguement here

    (4cp) Tactical Movement
    Its a no for me it does not fit the theme of Motorized Infantry. Troops that are Motorized should be riding in Vehicles not running across the battlefield. I would replace it off map attack maybe Stuka close air support for some needed AT.

    (13) Tiger tank
    I don't really think a Tiger really fits into the theme when I think Motorized Infantry I think guys riding trucks or Light APCs into battle supported by Light vehicles. Perhaps a infantry call in would be better, How about Panzerfusiliers, but instead of the G43s upgrade make so they can be upgraded with a LMG 42 or a Single Panzerschreck? they are accurate and harder to wiped than most Ostheer units.

  • #40
    1 year ago
    MSAF_Unbekannt_15MSAF_Unbe… Posts: 64
    edited August 2018

    @SomeguyfromIdaho

    I did contemplate a few changes but this is still the first draft. I will explain the changes made based from what you have recommended in each ability below.

    In Summary, this is the updated version of the Motorized Infantry Doctrine.

    [0CP]
    Breakthrough Tactics
    Infantry squads can now perform breakthrough tactics.

    [0CP]
    Motorized Reserves
    Opel Blitz Transports, 250 Halftracks and Panzer IIs can now be built in the Kampfgruppe HQ, Infanterie Kompanie and Liechte Mechanized Kompanie respectively.

    [1CP]
    Schützen Combat Package
    Pioneers can now be upgraded with AT-rifles and lay schu-mines. Infantry squads can now repair vehicles and structures, deploy tank traps and timed demolition charges for obstacle clearance.

    [12CP]
    Stuka Close Air Support
    JU-87G Close-Air Support can now be deployed to target enemy armour with twin 37mm autocannons.

    [12CP]
    Panther Command Tank
    A Panther Command Tank can now be deployed.

    The Changes

    [0CP]
    Breakthrough Tactics
    Infantry squads can now deploy breakthrough tactics.

    • Infantry squads can now decapture territory at 200% increased speed. [35 munitions]

    Changes: Removing Tactical Movement and replacing with Breakthrough Tactics. This is the carbon-copy of the OKW's Breakthrough Doctrine 0CP ability 'Breakthrough Tactics' and can economize on flanking maneuvers and cutting off enemy supply lines.

    [0CP]
    Motorized Reserves
    Additional early-war Motorized reserves are now available for deployment.

    • Opel Blitz can now be built in the Kampfgruppe Headquarters [200MP] - Build time - 5 seconds
    • 250 Halftracks can now be built in the Infanterie Kompanie [200MP] - Build time - 5 seconds
    • Panzer IIs can now be built in the Liechte Mechanized Kompanie [280MP/50F] - No change to build time

    Changes: Removing Panzer IV Ausf F1 [300MP/100F]. The original idea was to allow Ostheer players to purchase Panzer IVs earlier and take advantage of increased HE and gain experience until they really need the higher velocity cannon, where they can individually upgrade on each Panzer to Ausf H for the remaining cost of 50MP/20F. Reinforcement capability locked until Leichte Mechanized has been built to facilitate fuel cost reduction.

    [1CP]
    Schützen Combat Package
    Infantry Squads can now be equipped with additional equipment and motorized tactics.

    • Pioneer squads can now be upgraded with 2x PzB-39 Anti-Tank Rifles and can now build Schu-mines. [60 munitions for Upgrade/30 munitions per Schu-mine]

    • Grenadiers and Panzergrenadiers can perform rudimentary repairs. [-33% repair rate compared to Pioneers]

    • All Infantry squads can now lay timed demolition charges and deploy tank traps. [45 munitions per Demolition Charge]

    Changes: I'm providing Pioneers with timed Demolition charges [Paratrooper version] as a cheaper utility tool to destroy obstacles like buildings and serves as a classic counter to Forward HQ buildings and emplacements. Schu-mines will stop blobbing well enough alone. Since minesweepers do not actually take a weapon slot, you can actually purchase 2x PzB and still be able to buy minesweepers for pioneer squads. Reducing CP cost to 1CP for earlier access to PzB-39 for contact with Light armour. Allowing Infantry squads to deploy tank traps provides a more durable form of heavy cover and at a much quicker time compared to Sandbags at the cost of overall cover space.

    [12CP]
    Stuka Close Air Support
    JU-87 ready for panzer-busting. - Wolf Kahler

    • CAS variant. [200 munitions]
    • Excellent for slow-moving tanks, tank destroyers and self propelled gun howitzers, especially when bunched up.

    Changes: Looking at the current roster, this is a late-game addition and can effectively support a motorized push.

    [12CP]
    Panther Command Tank

    • Carbon-copy version of OKW's Panther Command Tank in cost and function. Veterancy altered to match three veterancy levels.
    • Vehicle Mark Target available.

    Veterancy [Command Tank Aura]

    • Vet 0:+10% Vehicle Speed, +20% Vehicle Sight, +10% Vehicle Ac/Deceleration Speed
    • Vet 1: +5% Vehicle Range
    • Vet 2: +20% Vehicle Accuracy
    • Vet 3: -20% Reload, Unlocks Inspiration. [20 munitions - 30 seconds] - Infantry squads also benefit from the same Command Tank Aura for the duration of the ability.

    Veterancy [Tank itself]

    • Vet 0: Nil
    • Vet 1: Unlocks Blitzkrieg [Not Combat Blitz]
    • Vet 2: +10% Armour, +20% Maximum health, +10% Weapon Rotation Speed.
    • Vet 3: -10% Reload Speed, +10% Tank Rotation Speed, +10% Ac/Deceleration Speed.

    Changes: While Motorized Infantry do not historically have Panzers in their divisions early in the war, many Motorized Divisions eventually evolved into fully-fledged Panzer-Divisions by 1941 during Operation Barbarossa, with Tigers in their ranks. It was why the term Schützen was eventually replaced with the term Panzergrenadier. Nevertheless, the OKW's Command Panther seems to be a contender for the late-game option. It offers a lot more survivability and speed to all vehicles in its aura. This combined with the fact that Opel Blitz trucks no longer cost fuel, allows you to move infantry with the armour extremely quickly without the fear of losing them at the cost of increased manpower usage.

    *Footnote: If PzB-39 was added into the live-game it needs to be buffed to do double damage and increased fire rate. At the current patch, they only do 40 damage and reload for 5 seconds after every shot. The PTRS-41 in comparison does 80 damage and fires every 2.5 seconds. Ramp the PzB-39 up to PTRS-41 standards if considering this commander build.

  • #41
    1 year ago

    @MSAF_Unbekannt_15

    On the PZB-39 Buff Instead of making it a PTRS clone here is a different approach. Keep the 40 damage per shot, but increase fire rate to 1.25 Seconds between shots. Making PZB hit half as hard as a PTRS but shots twice as fast.

  • #42
    1 year ago

    German Infantry
    stormtrooper call in
    or g43 upgrade

  • #43
    11 months ago
    az244az244 Cracow, PolandPosts: 16

    Now, thanks to all those addditional defensive structures i really feel that i play defensive commander. Concrete bunker is something i was looking for in this game for a long time. It looks amazing and have nice functions (2 teams inside) .
    Maybe soviet defensive commander could have equel number of defensive stuctures as german one? Then playing the soviet commander would have more defensive feeling.

  • #44
    11 months ago

    I only wonder when will they fix Ace Tiger. It is a Hail Mary tank. It either wins a battle all on it's own or it dries you of all your manpower and fuel and you lose by attrition. I think it should start weaker or be weaker overall but it shouldn't get you that mapower reduction.

    Cause in most cases it is better to just drive it into a mass of enemy tanks, get it to kill 2 or 3 to pay for itself and then lose it. In a game where not losing units is the key.

    If I remember correctly they started fixing it, gave it 150 fuel cost and then rolled back everything else.

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