Germans overperforming

#1
1 year ago

Anyone like me who feels like Wehr is over performing a little bit right now?

Main problem here is the Grenadier whose squad size is 4 but can solo any Soviet squad AFTER they get their weapon upgrade. At first I thought to myself, hey but the German units are expensive as hell. Then I checked the unit guide and oh my god they are as cheap as a Conscript squad, yet they beat Conscript in any range no cover 1v1 fight, they beat Penals in long range and they beat everything after MG42 (which cost as much as doctrine PPSH, as much as PTRS and as much as DP). They also have a grenade ability that is made to wipe squads in cover (as good as the upgrade-required American grenades and at the same cost). They have a free panzerfaust ability that frankly is pretty useless since no good player will get their vehicles that close to any Wehr squad (hey but sometimes my penals can still Satchel German tanks sooo no thought about that). It is correct that Grenadiers are tier 1 units and so are Penal Batallion (which funnily takes 300 manpower for a squad that is mediocore in AI and actually can be pretty good in AT against unskilled players). The point is that Soviet infantry just cannot stand against German infantry in mid-late game and when considering early game, the Soviet only have a slight advantage since if they spam Conscript the Soviet will have 1 more squad, which can be pretty nice), however the Soviet has no way to heal their infantry except for sacrificing this squad (I mean not producing it) in order to get the field medic (which stays at home only and hinders Soviet in 3v3 and 4v4 games). Grenadiers can heal themselves at Vet1 (worse than the British heal though).

Wehr can also get MG42 (everyone agrees that MG42 is the best MG in the game right?) which is as expensive as the Soviet Maxim but can somehow overperforms against both the standard Maxim and the doctrinal Dshk (seriously I have no idea what Dhsk adds to the game except for skipping tier 2). Edit: I don't know what the Vickers have better than MG42? which can be used in the early game to stop the Soviet and American player from winning the game outright.

So the Soviet player has to advance his tech or risk losing the late game since Germans infantry will overperform after a while when they get their upgrades. The next problems lies at the Panzer 4. I don't know why but Panzer 4s have this tendency to kill exactly 3 men per hit. The AI capability of this tank is phenomenal (the AT capability is subpar comparing to its cost though). But massing Pz4s and Soviet infantries will be completely useless. To this point the Soviet has the T34/76 which is cheaper than Pz4s, however loses to one and has weaker AI capability. The Soviet also has the doctrinal T34/85 which is actually MORE expensive than Pz4s, fight equally with Pz4s (I would say equally because the T34/85 is likely to miss its shot, it seems that the accuracy of this unit is lower than T34/76 somehow), has weaker AI capability, and has some more HP. The Soviet can specificly counter Pz4s using Su85, but then they cannot do anything about those pesky Grenadiers.

Wehr specifically has a very good grenade that they can get for free. USF can kinda hold Wehr off with the Infantry Company Commander (which gives free gun rack), reducing the cost for Weapon rack upgrade and Riflemen are actually pretty good infantry (enough to solo kill Grenadier early on without cover at most range).
Soviet players would have to get to T70 to bully the short-ranged Panzerfaust and try to put everything in one basket (like a gamble about microing skill). With the T70, the Soviet player would HAVE to be able to dominate the map and delay the Panzer 4 enough until they get a way to counter it since everyone knows that Pz4 can **** T70 up really easily.
I think that the best tank that Soviet players can get is the T70, then spam Su76 to counter the Pz4 thread (this was easier before since they nerfed the Su76's firerate by 1sec). But even if they do that, as the game progesses (if the Wehr player doesn't resign or lose 3 stars and die too early), the superior Pz4 and Stug3 will be able to beat the numerous but hard to control Soviet light vehicles).

That is another problem, Soviet and USF has cheap and numerous units (not THAT cheaper than Wehr though), which are pretty good in the early game since they can spread their forces on a larger area for better capping ability, however this becomes a burden as soon as minute 10 comes out since more unit = more micro = more macro = harder to play. Wehr players don't have to pay so much attention to so many units on the battlefield (especially tanks) against Soviet players since they have no kind of reliable grenades unless they get Guards or Shock troops (Penal's Satchel Charges takes too long to throw at units though).

Edit: I posted this earlier but on the General Discussion forum and only now do I realize that it should be under Balance Discussion.
Anyone else feel that the Panzer 4 tends to wipe squads more than it should?

Comments

  • #2
    1 year ago
    SimpleSimonSimpleSim… Posts: 73
    edited August 2018

    Grenadiers and Volksgrenadiers both have access to a "bag of tricks" that far exceeds their face value. They're super adaptable units that simply don't end up in situations they can't reply to like Allied units do. Enemy spamming light armor? Faust gives you something against that. Enemy spamming weapon crews? Rifle grenades for the wipe. Enemy blobbing with rifles? MG42s for the counter + easy veterancy. As long as you retreat them before the artillery starts falling you'll get those critical late game wipes Allied factions can't manage because their units just never get the bite they need for them.

  • #3
    1 year ago
    JacK_QcJacK_Qc Posts: 3
    edited September 2018
    I felt the same as you did not so long ago. The thing is you got to see the conscript as a support infantery. You use them for the numerous ability they got but they are not so good at winning a direct fighting engagement on their own. Right now you need to mix them with gards riffle if you want some offensive punch.

    Same with penals for mid/ late games. They will require mortar support smoking the ennemy mg and such. I feel like the more diverse your unit composition is the more likely you are to suceed.

    I wouldnt go t70.
    They die too quickly. Penal + zis gun to t34-85 to face a p4 is a good upper hand situation to get map control.
  • #4
    1 year ago
    SimpleSimonSimpleSim… Posts: 73
    edited September 2018

    There are circumstances where Conscripts can be your fighting infantry, it's just that they're very narrow and most Axis players don't run a strat that leads into that. Basically in order to justify running more than three Conscript squads the Axis player is using too many snipers or mortar teams. Most of them don't open that way against Soviets though and under those circumstances yes Cons are really more for keeping your weapon teams crewed and building sandbag positions for those teams.

    The T70 is either extremely useful or extremely pointless, circumstances are highly dependent. They are vulnerable to tank guns yes but one must remember many units in the game cannot damage it and it can kill them very quickly. A pair of them will wipe Obers and weapon crews so fast I almost feel bad for Axis, then I remember they've got a lot more quick kill options than I do and can deal with it.

  • #5
    1 year ago

    Well it does seem to me that if I needed to upgrade at least one of my penal squad, get a Zis and a T34/85 to be able to fight equally with a Wehr player who has a Panzer 4, I have already lost the game or at least be playing in a disadvantage.
    Guard + T34/85 => only 1 viable commander (good thing he has the mortar of doom 120mm beast)

    The T70 is really either a liability or something that will win the game on its own though. The squad wipe is as good as a Pz4 though the T70 is cheaper and weaker, which is fine since it's the theme of the faction anyway.
    Back in the old days Soviet player can just spam Su76 against Wehr and win every game with that free barrage. That is kinda imbalance though so I am glad they nerfed it, but nerfing more of the Su76 DPS does seem kinda excessive to me. Maybe nerf its veterancy gain or something could have made it more balanced (look at you mister Stug3, more armor, more hp, more speed, 15 more fuel, Vet1 stun, doctrinal smoke haha). I don;t think the Su76 has a lot of uses in 1v1 though since the Wehr player would have superior tank with the Pz4. I consider the Panther and anything bigger than it too expensive for 1v1. (I have only seen King Tiger once).

  • #6
    11 months ago
    ballist1xballist1x Posts: 198
    Grenediers underperform and are far worse than volks even which imo is stupid as grens are t1 and not t0.

    Same with conscripts.

    The size of the gren squad and their wipeabiity is second only to pzgrens who in game seem more fragile than even grens.

    At the same time conscripts never have to face Super Shocks or 6 men support unit weapon teams.

    Sure faust is useful but how else can you stop clown cars or breb abuse without ?
  • #7
    11 months ago

    Penals cost more MP because they are harder to wipe, are better mobile infantry, better close combat infantry, and have building destruction capability. They will lose in a 1v1 fight with MG42 Grens at long range, but that's about it. Conscripts likewise are also more survivable than Grens and have more utility by far by being able to keep your team weapons on the front lines longer with merge and have access to an anti-garrison ability. The panzerfaust being accessible without any tech is probably the biggest advantage that Grens have over Cons early game, so it is interesting to me that you downplay how strong that ability is.

    The MG42 vs Maxim comparison is rough as well. While the MG42 does have better suppression, it has considerably worse survivability being only a 4 man squad versus a 6 man squad, which should be forming a pattern with the Grens vs Cons/Penals line of thinking as well. The DsHK absolutely blows the MG42 out of the water, but only if the Soviet player is utilizing it. The MG42's main advantage vs the DsHK is that it has a significantly wider range of fire, and so can be forgotten by the Wehr player and still maintain utility, while the Soviet player must be scouting and repositioning the DsHK to keep it in the fight. The suppression on the DsHK however is absolutely insane and will suppress multiple squads in one barrage and pin shortly after. It also has better anti-vehicle capability and can even do a decent job of fending off flame HT early in the game.

    The Panzer IV vs the T34 is also a "no sale" vote from me. The Panzer IV has roughly the same chance of killing several models that the T34 does, but the T34 has much more consistent dps versus infantry from its machine guns, which should not be overlooked. The Panzer IV DOES beat the T34 as an anti-vehicle tank, but only by a little, and we can't ignore how much cheaper the T34 is compared to the Panzer IV (75% of the fuel cost) while the T34 is still even being compared to the Panzer IV.

    Your last argument of "Bigger army=more micro=harder game" I also do not buy. Once you are at 100 population or as close as your build is going to get, you have a huge army no matter what faction you are playing. What will lose your game at that stage is getting squad wiped, which is insanely easier to have happen to you as Wehr than any other faction, and losing key vehicles which no one faction is particularly prone to in my experience. I think you need to take your losses when they come and assess your game as you continue to play the Soviets, which I hope you continue to do. The Soviet Union is one of the most well-rounded factions in the game before considering commanders, and are able to tackle a lot of scenarios so long as you are using your army in union with itself.

  • #8
    10 months ago

    I can agree to an extent. Wermacht units are just superior in everything they do. MGs are suppresing faster. Line infantry got more dmg and farther skills. Key is killing this one unit makes hole in german line. Rifle nade is imba af and vetted grenadiers can just rush on mg and snipe squad long before red pin occurs. Thats why you need zerg wave and oracle like skills/vision. When you spot massing german infantry set conscripts on front behind them ready the storms/penals/vetted conscripts with PPSh. Narrow battleline to pin all squads together. Use molotovs to set burning barricade so they can just run into HMG. Set su76/mortar team to deal with pinned targets. You need unit coherency. German can run blob of 5 upgraded grenadiers and recreate WWI sparing ocasional click for panzergrens to shoot ur vehicle, but russian commender needs to plan, set and see the enemy clearly before engagement. Every time i lose to german player (which is quite often) is bcs i couldnt operate all my squads to form a cohesive force or rifle nade. Superiority of Dszk is they supress faster than even german HMGs and can tear a light vehicle a new asshole.

    I dont see Panzer 4 as superior unit. Its good at being at the heart of blob but otherwise just use your generic anti tank be it zis,su76 or preferably su8 and if they want to come close just throw a rpg nade which has 100% to drop the engine if its own dmg makes it hp below 75% of max so after any ap shot u are guarenteed to cripple. they are suprisingly dangerous en masse with 3 counting but thats lategame and if he manage to have 2 vetted omea wa mou shindeiru. Panzer 5 on the other hand is fcking unbreakable from front zis and su76 not being able to reliably penetrate front armor and dying to its 2-3 shots.

    T70 is my priceless sweet piece of treat being bane of every light armor except for puma, drowning volks in sea of lead and possesing ultimate recon mode ability granting vision better tahn vetted sniper and u can mortar all day long, cap the point and dispatch it everywhere quickly to deal with some pesky grens trying to sneak point far from battleline. After certain minute i almost never exit recon mode. If u manage to beat early game and delay real panzers it is unbeatable being basically what german 222 always wanted to be.

    I think penal ability to throw satchel into tanks should be separated from PTRS. Its 50 munition to upgrade and 45 for each use ffs. 100 munitions. And if you got only one squad (as PTRS smg sucks at duel with wehr 222) they are huge fire magnet and if they can force them out (what 4x grens cannot) and u dont yet have any other ap or your zis just so happens to be riflenaded u are force to retreat almost everything. You need 2 squads which is 600/100 munitions to battle 250/30 fuel vehicle if you go heavy infantry and wants to back some fuel and even then PTRS drops the anti infantry dmg of the squad.

  • #9
    10 months ago

    Soviet have something to deal with german unit.
    indirect fire.
    Zis, 45mm mortar, 82 and 120, katiouska...

    Even flamethrower.
    1 conscript + 1 flame sapper win against 2 gren, even if they focus the flame thrower, as you can merge or flank.
    You usually will Have more ammo than the german guy, and a lot of ability cost less. use them.

    You won't win with a big blob of doom with soviet, something that you can do with okw.

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