Feedback - Commander Revamp

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  • #182
    1 year ago
    pablonanopablonano YesterdayPosts: 2,549
    edited September 2018

    .

  • #183
    1 year ago
    pablonanopablonano YesterdayPosts: 2,549
    edited September 2018

    I would preffer if the commisary, after setting the retreating point, would make units inmune to suppresion on a friendly sector, making him usefull to stand the ground even if you get attacked by mgs.

    It wouldnt be that hard to implement as the old command pz4 had a similar buff but with different effects.

  • #184
    1 year ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 640
    edited September 2018
    • Arty Officer: Offensive aura (25ammo with 20s duration) + various of Barrage (support with indirect fire)

    • Air Landing Officer: Speed aura (30ammo with 10s duration), a true fighter unit

    • Major: Retreat point + Arty barrage (recon, defense his retreat point with arty barrage, smoke himself from danger)

    • SturmOffizier: Passive Offensive aura + weaken an enemy squad/force retreat (as the doctrine's name: Breakthrough)

    I like them balance but it doesnt have to be Ost has it & Soviet should have it, since Ost & USF both have indirect support

    • So I prefer Commissar to be something different: strengthen his retreat point & infantry defensive line with Defensive aura)

    This is my opinion on Commissar play style since he has Retreat point ability, but others like him to have different abilities since its NKVD Disruption tactic. I like to see different opinions for different play style, too (if his abilities fit the name Disruption)

  • #185
    1 year ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 346

    @C3Tooth The only thing which fits the Disruption theme is if, when the Commissar toggles on the Retreat Point, it locks the sector down (like the US Major or the new 250 half-track). My understanding is that, once locked down, the sector cannot be taken by the enemy until the lock-down unit is forced to move or is destroyed.

    I'm of the opinion that we're at the high-water mark for the Commissar. At this point, there isn't much they can add but, they can start taking things away. Relic has done a great job trying to achieve the impossible - namely, satisfying everyone. However, at some point, a decision has to be made about what role the Commissar actually plays.

    For me, the Commissar should be a support unit that relies on other units and the Prop Arty barrage to protect it when the action gets close (but I know other people feel differently). As such, a smoke grenade would make more sense than a Frag grenade. A lock-down ability would also suit this role.

    However, the Fight To The Death ability seems out of line with this role. I agree that this makes more sense as a built-in buff for Shock Troops, who seem to have so little going for them otherwise. In my opinion, Conscripts are a better unit than Shocks - they're cheaper, more versatile and can use their "Oorah" buff to help overcome their deficiencies. Fight To The Death could help Shock Troops in a similar way and make them unique at the same time. It definitely suits their role as assault troops.

    One thing I really don't want to see is the Commissar squad being made into a 3 man unit. The aura for this unit is so small that it needs to be very close to the action when using the buffs and a 3 man squad would die too quickly. Then it would become like the US Major - a unit that needs to be kept far away from the fighting so, it can never gain any experience or veterancy.

  • #186
    1 year ago
    ComradComrad Posts: 122

    When will there be a discussion about the new commanders?

  • #187
    1 year ago

    @Comrad said:
    When will there be a discussion about the new commanders?

    my guess would be when the revamp is finalized which should be some time next month

  • #188
    1 year ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 640

    I know Major lock sector at vet3, but didnt know Commissar does, too.
    I dont know if Commissar recieve vet by staying nearby other fighting infantry, because thats how Lieu,Cap,Major get their vet (and all of them are really easy to get vet3)

    PanzerFutz: "In my opinion, Conscripts are a better unit than Shocks - they're cheaper, more versatile and can use their "Oorah" buff to help overcome their deficiencies."
    -> Conscript can be better because they're cheap IF 'Fight to the Death' is an Aura ability, not a single squad.

  • #189
    1 year ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 346

    @C3Tooth I apologize for not being clear with my writing. The Commissar does not have a lock-down ability but, it would suit him if he is a support unit. The Commissar does not get shared experience but, it would suit him if he is a support unit.

    In the first revamp notes, it is stated that the Commissar is "a formidable combat and utility squad". Based on what it had at that time, it was meant to be a Soviet Sturmoffizier but, its buffs were active and limited to one squad only. They added the Propaganda Artillery in the next patch, which was consistent with its role as a Soviet Sturmoffizier.

    In patch 1.4, they added a retreat point and some grenades. The grenades are consistent with its role as a combat unit but, the Retreat Point is not. A Retreat Point ability only makes sense for a support unit; a unit which should not be in direct contact with the enemy (if it is, things are going very wrong).

    Finally, they added a healing aura, which I (among others) had been asking for all along. This ability is neutral regarding the Commissar's role. It is consistent with a support role, if the Commissar is being used as a retreat point. However, it also works if the Commissar is a combat unit. It follows the same pattern as other infantry units with healing abilities (British Rifle squads, OKW Sturmpioneers, and Wehrmacht infantry with med-kits).

    Looking at the Commissar's abilities, "one of these things is not like the others". If he's meant to be a combat unit, then the Retreat Point is not necessary but, every other ability makes sense. In this role, the Commissar should gain experience and veterancy from his own combats.

    However, if he's meant to be a support unit, then the frag grenade makes no sense, nor do the single-unit active buffs. In a support role, the Retreat Point with passive buffs, shared experience and a lock-down ability (with a smoke grenade, perhaps) would make more sense.

    As it stands, the Commissar can perform both roles and, in my opinion, needs no further modification. If they choose to confine it to one role only, then making it a combat unit (by removing the Retreat Point) is the simplest option. Making it a true support unit would require a more thorough rework.

    So, the question is what do you want: a combat unit, a support unit or both?

  • #190
    1 year ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 640
    edited September 2018

    Only 1 commissar squad on the field, if hes a combat unit, the squad should be able to fight 1 on 1 vs Panzergren or Fallschirm (such as British Airlanding officer can whip a Fallschirm squad with ease). And I dont think balance team will ever make Commissar that strong. So I prefer Commissar as a true support unit.

    My ideas on Commissar squad:
    -3/4 men, no grenade, not a combat squad
    -retreat point
    -passive healing (either slow healing even in combat or fast healing when out of combat)
    -passive defense buff aura (-10% received accuracy or toggle mode -20% received accuracy with speed penalty)

    My preference:
    -3/4 men, no grenade, not a combat squad
    -retreat point
    -passive healing (slow healing even in combat)
    -passive defense buff aura (toggle mode -20% received accuracy with speed penalty)

  • #191
    1 year ago
    ComradComrad Posts: 122

    I believe the Commissar's version as a unit is good as support today patch, even if it remains so (with a point of retreat and a passive healing). But there are some:

    • The point of retreat appears too late, it needs to build T4, it takes too much time;
    • He has a useless ability (grenade, buffs for 1 infantry's squad and propaganda).

    I ask you to change him the ability to remove grenade, buffs on 1 squad and propaganda, leaving him instead of aura of healing, which he has at the moment in the patch, but to add 2 abilities:

    • Supply drop
    • "Katyusha's volley"
  • #192
    1 year ago
    Here are my thoughts on what could improve the Lend-lease doctrine, so that it won't need any more changes. Basically, it's all about the Guard rifles call-in:
    1. Make it a 3 CP ability.
    2. Give them SVTs.
    3. Give them 3 options to upgrade their firepower: it could be either 2 Brownings 1919, or 4 Thompsons, or 2 Bazookas and an appropriate grenade choice in accordance with the main weaponry: it could be either the AT greanade, or the frag grenade, or the smoke grenade.
    4. Make their manpower cost to be 360 points.
    And rework Sherman 4c like USF sherman
  • #193
    1 year ago

    I want commisars to execute his own soldiers, would be historical accurate and bring a nice flavor to the soviets.

  • #194
    1 year ago

    @Boris_yeltsin said:
    Here are my thoughts on what could improve the Lend-lease doctrine, so that it won't need any more changes. Basically, it's all about the Guard rifles call-in:
    1. Make it a 3 CP ability.
    2. Give them SVTs.
    3. Give them 3 options to upgrade their firepower: it could be either 2 Brownings 1919, or 4 Thompsons, or 2 Bazookas and an appropriate grenade choice in accordance with the main weaponry: it could be either the AT greanade, or the frag grenade, or the smoke grenade.
    4. Make their manpower cost to be 360 points.
    And rework Sherman 4c like USF sherman

    Aha and tell me: what kind of german unit has that firepower/upgrade choice?

  • #195
    1 year ago

    @szolnok95 said:

    @Boris_yeltsin said:
    Here are my thoughts on what could improve the Lend-lease doctrine, so that it won't need any more changes. Basically, it's all about the Guard rifles call-in:
    1. Make it a 3 CP ability.
    2. Give them SVTs.
    3. Give them 3 options to upgrade their firepower: it could be either 2 Brownings 1919, or 4 Thompsons, or 2 Bazookas and an appropriate grenade choice in accordance with the main weaponry: it could be either the AT greanade, or the frag grenade, or the smoke grenade.
    4. Make their manpower cost to be 360 points.
    And rework Sherman 4c like USF sherman

    Aha and tell me: what kind of german unit has that firepower/upgrade choice?

    For starters Volks, stormtroopers, sturmpioneers and obersoldaten. All with doctrines of course, but since this is a doctrinal unit too it shouldnt matter. Personally i would give the guards M1 carbines ( i am not sure which is better, Para Carbines or Guard SVTs) but generally i feel those upgrade further play into the lend lease feel. the Duschka could also be replaced by a M2 Browing. Altho i personally would replace the m1919s with BARs.

    Why did this commander even come up? It is not a commander set up to change ( altho i could say the thing with the german infantrty doctrine, seeing how the 250 was probably implemented to buff the other 2 commanders its in rather than the doctrine in question itself)

  • #196
    1 year ago
    @Romanov so far most of changes to GID have been adding and buffing units that already exist in other doctrines inadvertently buffing other commanders meanwhile the Doctrine unique ability Veteran Squad leaders has gone completely unchanged since the revamp started.
  • #197
    1 year ago
    Boris_yeltsinBoris_yel… Posts: 104
    edited September 2018

    @szolnok95 написал:

    @Boris_yeltsin said:
    Here are my thoughts on what could improve the Lend-lease doctrine, so that it won't need any more changes. Basically, it's all about the Guard rifles call-in:
    1. Make it a 3 CP ability.
    2. Give them SVTs.
    3. Give them 3 options to upgrade their firepower: it could be either 2 Brownings 1919, or 4 Thompsons, or 2 Bazookas and an appropriate grenade choice in accordance with the main weaponry: it could be either the AT greanade, or the frag grenade, or the smoke grenade.
    4. Make their manpower cost to be 360 points.
    And rework Sherman 4c like USF sherman

    Aha and tell me: what kind of german unit has that firepower/upgrade choice?

    Osther:
    PzGrenadier: 4 stg44(base), 2 pzshrek or 3 g43
    Grenadier: 1 mg42 or 2 g43.
    stormtroopers(befor pach): 4 stg or 3 g43 or 1 pzshrek
    OKW
    Pios: 4 stg(base) or 1 pzhsrek or 1 flamer35.
    volks: 2 stg or 5 mp40
    Obersoldaten: 1 mg34 or 2 special stg44

  • #198
    1 year ago
    Andy_REAndy_RE Posts: 270 admin

    Hey guys,

    The latest mod is now live. Change notes can be found here: https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/245307/commander-revamp-preview-changelog#latest

    Thanks to everyone for their continued feedback and discussion.

  • #199
    1 year ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 640

    I was excited to see the change of Commissar, and

    • Foward retreat point removed
  • #200
    1 year ago
    vsrvsr Posts: 93

    Good that they removed balance-breaking 6-men forward retreat point. You can't have a forward retreat point for soviets, period.

  • #201
    1 year ago

    1.6

    NKVD RIFLE DISRUPTION

    Commissar:
    with the removal Forward Retreat Point from the Commissar this unit has gotten less useful and with its abilities only affecting one unit at a time its takes up to much micro in my opinion

    KV-8:
    its already in better doctrines

    Scorched Earth:
    the only really useful part of the doctrine

    -Suggestions-

    Commissar gives passive rate of fire buff to near by allied infantry

    Hero of the Soviet Union Command tank: (replaces KV-8) a t-34/85 that buffs the speed and accuracy of near by allied tanks (Vet3 buffs are now applied to all allied units)

    NKVD Enforcer squads: Infantry equipped heavy armor to Hold critical positions however this durability comes at the cost of speed (6 man shocker trooper squad armed with SVTS, RG-42 Anti-Personnel Grenade, RPG-43 Anti-Tank Grenade)

    DEFENSIVE DOCTRINE

    Advanced Defensive Positions:
    with concrete bunker costing pop the repair bunker is no longer as spamable which is good. However with its cost increase and pop cost I still don't see a reason to build a concrete mg bunker over the normal mg bunker

    -suggestions-

    anti aircraft bunker upgrade a flak 36 is placed onto the roof the bunker to engage enemy ground and air forces, but bunker can no longer be garrisoned

    GERMAN INFANTRY DOCTRINE

    Stromtroopers:
    I actually like this change as it makes them more versatile on big open maps

    250 halftrack:
    the vet2 is a good change, but I still don't think "dig in" fits with this unit

    -Suggestions-

    Stromtroopers:
    they are fine please move onto other parts of this commander

    250 half track:
    Dig in should be replaced with "Infantry support mode" movement speed -50%, grants moderate weapon suppression, and passenger get 20% increase accuracy.

    Veteran squad leaders:
    -VSL for Pioneer comes with an non-transferable lMG 28 (p) (captured Polish BARS) for increased DPS
    -VSL for Grenadier comes with a non-transferable Stg-44 for a boost in DPS
    -VSL for PanzerGrenadier comes a non-transferable g43 for a boost in DPS
    -All VSL grant 10% increased experience gain

  • #202
    1 year ago
    ProstenalProstenal Posts: 11
    edited September 2018

    1.6 disappointment... no solution to problems

  • #203
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited September 2018

    MECHANIZED COMPANY
    76mm Sherman
    --Soviet Sherman now has the exact same abilities and veterancy as the American M4A3 76mm.
    -Speed from 6.4 to 6.5; speed matches Soviet Sherman

    Mirroring 76mm Sherman (USF) and M4C is totally uncalled for. Different faction have different strengths and weakness, different tech cost,...

    In the specific case allied supply drop also affects the timing of the vehicle.

    Having the same unit perform different across faction and having different prices is not a new thing and actually applies to allot of units like M3, M5, PzIV, Panthers,...

    The unit should have different vet bonuses and not that ones designed for T-34/76 that are op.

    Trying to balance the unit in 2 different faction makes balancing more difficult while add nothing to the game and should be avoided.

    M10
    -Fuel cost from 90 to 80.
    -Flanking Speed from veterancy 2 to Veterancy 0
    -HE Shot removed

    Since the unit now is more designed as "flanker" (cheap high speed) one should remove the HVAP from the unit (a ability that allow to frontally penetrate enemy armor) and move Flaking speed to vet 1 since its an ability similar to "Blitzkrieg" . Alternately one could limit the HVAP shots to 1.

    The vet bonuses should also be look at since:
    +20% rotation, +20% speed, +20% ac/de-celeration plus +10% max speed, +60% acceleration and deceleration from flanking speed on already fast unit (Speed: 7 Accel: 3.2 Rotate: 32) are simply over the top and will reintroduce the issues with crushing infantry.

    Max speed 9.24, acceleration 6.15

    Vet bonus could replaced by penetration bonuses, sight bonus maybe HP bonuses or target size bonuses.

    The combination of such a fast unit and Thompson will also lead to cheesy tactics like disembarking next to packs.

  • #204
    1 year ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 640

    I prefer to remove Commissar & replace him with the old Fear propaganda. More disruption

  • #205
    1 year ago
    ComradComrad Posts: 122

    Why did you remove Forward Retreat Point ? Return back and leave the aura of treatment. What's the Commissar's if to him can't retreat, he can't healing (you remove, I'm sure. And nothing that the US has a ambulance car + medics + M3 medkits, almost all units of the Wehrmacht have medkits, healing's bunkers + medication drop, OKW has a medkits for vet, Pioniere's medkits, the British army has medkits for infantry units + medics in forward point + medication drop), and he's not encouraging? Summon him for assault - there is no sense as there is an ability at different commanders "Propaganda Artillery". Tell me for what to call the Commissar?

  • #206
    1 year ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 640
    edited September 2018

    A single squad of 4 men Guard with no PTRS, who can inspirating a single Conscript squad & force retreat an enemy squad.

    Honestly Commissar has 7 pop, with a halftrack nearby 5 pop. Total 12 pop for a retreat point, i dont need it. If Commissar has a retreat point, i prefer him to be a 3men, lower pop squad like Major, with useful support abilities.

  • #207
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    Urban defense commander from design point of view.

    The commander thematically seems to designed for specific maps with houses.

    When changing the commander one has to consider if the commander is designed as a 1vs1 or more of support commander in 2vs2 games and above.

    Abilities:
    Forward head quartets (CP 2)

    M-42 45 mm AT gun (CP 2)

    Shock troops (CP 2)

    Booby Trap territory (CP 6)

    KV-2 Heavy assault tank (CP 14)

    With the current changes the commander seem to hit a spike at CP 2 by gaining forward healing, elite infantry and ATGs.

    In addition the KV-2 allows the commander to invest fuel on forward healing, stop teching at T3 and still be in little disadvantage since he can relay on KV-2.

    So the commander can apply allot of pressure at CP-2 and still have strong late game.

    Comments:
    FHQ the ability is strong but situational because it requires suitable buildings. Maybe the FHQ upgrade should repair some of the damage to ambient buildings if they have any.
    One could also provide tools in dealing with this buildings like abilities to vehicles with flame weapon to set them on fire.

    Auras imo one should reconsider the aura and especially applying it to allied troops something that was removed from other auras. The aura could become a timed ability.

    The problem with aura can easily go out hand when multiply auras apply like the "inspiration" from KV-2 (or other in team games like combined arm, command vehicle, advance cover, hold the line, heroic charge etch.)

    The reinforcement post is simply way to cheap and accessible especially with Soviet faction design and access to elite infantry and to no tech ATG, Ostheer would need 300 mp and 120 MU for the same while OKW would allot more. I have to point out although fuel my set the tech back mu set back in DPS in mid game and even become more important in big modes and late game.

    M-42 the unit should be designed as stop gap and currently is simply OP for cost. (will go into units in another thread)

    booby trap would be better to become dot damage so it can delay capping. Maybe move to infantry since currently need little micro to use and lots of micro to counter.

    KV-2 simply does not belong to the commander. Having a FHQ protect by KV-2 apply 2 aura to units like shock troops and PTRS penals that can sprint to use satchel and have increased DPS due to cooldown is simply asking for trouble.

    Call-in vehicles are also bad for the commander since the no tech access to vehicles counterweight the investment in fuels for HQ access.

    The commander could use a strong off map like IL-2 bombing or an ability that increased DPS of garrison troops and/or increased DPS when firing on garrisoned troops that fit the commander thematically.

    (will edit for typos when I get chance)

  • #208
    1 year ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 346

    @Vipper Your words about auras provide much food for thought. Having 2 units with auras under the one commander does seem like a recipe for trouble. If it occurs, both auras should be timed effects but, it's probably better to not have it occur in the first place. If players combine their respective units' auras in a multiplayer game, that's just good strategy. If one player can do it on his own with a single commander, that's really a design flaw - especially if it's a combination of units that are powerful on their own. Both Soviet revamps have this issue so, maybe the Inspire ability wasn't so inspired after all. It might need a rethink.

  • #209
    1 year ago
    Andy_REAndy_RE Posts: 270 admin

    Some good feedback here guys which we're considering atm.

    Keep it coming.

  • #210
    1 year ago

    My thoughts about urban defense:

    I agree that having double auras can be problem, maybe change kv2- inspire to break suppression of infantry nearby and let them sprint for a few seconds? It wouldn't collide with FHQ aura I think, but that's just my idea.

    But still, I don't think FHQ needs any changes like moving it to 2cp. Currently, It can be risky and expensive early-game ability, or player can play safe and make FHQ later. They are not that good anyways, 40 extra fuel can be a life saver, and it can be somewhat useful only on some maps, also you can't retreat units to it. I think it's good as 0cp (or eventually 1cp) ability.

    After playing few matches with my friend (me using urban defense) I wouldn't say that m42 atg is OP or something, currently it's just a good, doctrinal unit. Zis-3 is still better altenartive, but more expensive.

  • #211
    1 year ago

    ELITE ARMOUR DOCTRINE

    Panzercommader cost should be bumped from 30 to 45 and some kind of vehicle smoke added preferably similar to the Sherman's smoke which has to be aimed

    This doctrine could also benefit with the addition of the recently buffed 250 Half-track giving OKW new tactical options

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