Why is this allowed? Satchel (all game modes)

13

Comments

  • #62
    2 years ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 993

    I think the numbers speak for themselves. AT satchel is high risk, high reward compared to faust and AT nade.

    The only thing I could think of to "control" it would be to lock the AT satchel behind the HQ AT nade tech.

  • #63
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    > @Katitof said:
    > @Lazarus said:
    > Well because it snares even full HP Panthers. That's not a small perk.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > What is your AT tank doing within 10 range of AT squad?

    Your AT tank is in 10 range of my AT squad because I'm good at the game and understand the basic true sight mechanics.
  • #64
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681
    edited September 2018

    @Lazarus said:
    > @Katitof said:
    > @Lazarus said:
    > Well because it snares even full HP Panthers. That's not a small perk.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > What is your AT tank doing within 10 range of AT squad?

    Your AT tank is in 10 range of my AT squad because I'm good at the game and understand the basic true sight mechanics.

    And apparently do not understand the basics of micro and scouting before commiting armor.

    There is a reason why good players do not give a chase blindly into FoW.

    Sorry, but shi*ty micro is never an excuse.

  • #65
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    > @Katitof said:
    > @Lazarus said:
    > > @Katitof said:
    > > @Lazarus said:
    > > Well because it snares even full HP Panthers. That's not a small perk.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > What is your AT tank doing within 10 range of AT squad?
    >
    > Your AT tank is in 10 range of my AT squad because I'm good at the game and understand the basic true sight mechanics.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > And apparently do not understand the basics of micro and scouting before commiting armor.
    >
    > There is a reason why good players do not give a chase blindly into FoW.
    >
    > Sorry, but shi*ty micro is never an excuse.

    Cool story bro. Didnt say it was. Got anything based on reality to add?
  • #66
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    @Lazarus said:
    Cool story bro. Didnt say it was. Got anything based on reality to add?

    It was.
    Not my problem if you don't accept reality.

    Here is reality:

    Players with a clue scout for their vehicles.
    If you don't, the exact situation where you bump into AT squad happens, this is why not a single player worth his salt does that.

  • #67
    2 years ago
    > @Lazarus said:
    > Well because it snares even full HP Panthers. That's not a small perk.

    As said what's a 50 range tank doing near a 10 range snare? The high damage is needed to prevent push given the long aim time of the PTRS. It's the hardest to use and most expensive, of course it hits like a truck. But without other assets nearby the snare and ptrs isnt enough to kill anything but a light tank.
  • #68
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    > @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > > @Lazarus said:
    > > Well because it snares even full HP Panthers. That's not a small perk.
    >
    > As said what's a 50 range tank doing near a 10 range snare? The high damage is needed to prevent push given the long aim time of the PTRS. It's the hardest to use and most expensive, of course it hits like a truck. But without other assets nearby the snare and ptrs isnt enough to kill anything but a light tank.

    I mean the real answer to that question is you're playing Soviets and therefore have access to SU-85s, ISUs and KV2s (last one only relevant once the revamp is finalized). Against Ost - you dictate the tank engagements and you force their hand. They need to be aggressive in their flanking/diving on to you. The Penals mean your flanks are 100% secure with *just* the Penals, no assisting units - and flanking is the only real weakness of the SU85 to Ost. Again - this wouldn't be a problem if they weren't freaking everywhere because of their strong scalability.
  • #69
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    @Lazarus said:
    I mean the real answer to that question is you're playing Soviets and therefore have access to SU-85s, ISUs and KV2s (last one only relevant once the revamp is finalized). Against Ost - you dictate the tank engagements and you force their hand. They need to be aggressive in their flanking/diving on to you. The Penals mean your flanks are 100% secure with just the Penals, no assisting units - and flanking is the only real weakness of the SU85 to Ost. Again - this wouldn't be a problem if they weren't freaking everywhere because of their strong scalability.

    How does any of that justifies stupid plays, no scouting and reckless diving into FoW with expensive armor?

  • #70
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    > @Katitof said:
    > @Lazarus said:
    > I mean the real answer to that question is you're playing Soviets and therefore have access to SU-85s, ISUs and KV2s (last one only relevant once the revamp is finalized). Against Ost - you dictate the tank engagements and you force their hand. They need to be aggressive in their flanking/diving on to you. The Penals mean your flanks are 100% secure with just the Penals, no assisting units - and flanking is the only real weakness of the SU85 to Ost. Again - this wouldn't be a problem if they weren't freaking everywhere because of their strong scalability.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > How does any of that justifies stupid plays, no scouting and reckless diving into FoW with expensive armor?

    Where in that response did I say make a stupid play, don't scout, or dive in to FoW? Try to respond to what I write and not whatever bullshit you decide you want to pick a fight about.
  • #71
    2 years ago
    @Lazarus it's more about the early game than late. > @Lazarus said:
    > > @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > > > @Lazarus said:
    > > > Well because it snares even full HP Panthers. That's not a small perk.
    > >
    > > As said what's a 50 range tank doing near a 10 range snare? The high damage is needed to prevent push given the long aim time of the PTRS. It's the hardest to use and most expensive, of course it hits like a truck. But without other assets nearby the snare and ptrs isnt enough to kill anything but a light tank.
    >
    > I mean the real answer to that question is you're playing Soviets and therefore have access to SU-85s, ISUs and KV2s (last one only relevant once the revamp is finalized). Against Ost - you dictate the tank engagements and you force their hand. They need to be aggressive in their flanking/diving on to you. The Penals mean your flanks are 100% secure with *just* the Penals, no assisting units - and flanking is the only real weakness of the SU85 to Ost. Again - this wouldn't be a problem if they weren't freaking everywhere because of their strong scalability.

    ive already stated that i dont like current penals and think they are too strong with minimal drawback. i think specialization should be required, not fantastic AI into good AI and defensive AT. additionally tying the AT satchel to the snare package in HQ might be a good move as well.
  • #72
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    @thedarkarmadillo certainly - my only point going back to your first post I responded to is I'd argue that satchels are better because they are a 100% snare, yes they have a smaller range but that's a massive perk to have as compensation.

    I'll also just say that all snares have shorter range then tanks have sight range - and even our mightiest of players manage to get snared so I'm not going to cop "just avoid it".
  • #73
    2 years ago
    @Lazarus fair enough, however with half the range it's twice as easy to avoid. Cons have oorah making them probably the easiest to snare a tank, but penals have not. It's obviously possible to snare with them, but it's the hardest, as well as the most expensive on the most expensive unit. It hits like a truck because it fucking well better basically. It would be the equivalent of Obers having the old volks stick grenade with molotov range.
  • #74
    2 years ago
    I think the quality of the AT satchel is a separate conversation from the AI dominance of penals. Obviously it wasn't before the AT satchel was exclusive to ptrs penals, but with everything seperated I really think it's fine.

    It's definitely a stronger snare, but you pay for it in the cost of the squad and the ability itself. And the OPs claims about it are completely unfounded.
  • #75
    2 years ago
    pablonanopablonano YesterdayPosts: 2,549

    to be fair the existance of penals renders conscripts completely pointless, appart that it doesnt makes sense, historically or not, that penal batallions are extremely better supplied than the rest of the army, I know its just a personal opinion, but it still something i am not really confortable even on this day.

    But certainly AT satchel should be tuned down, and on my opinion all the ATgrenades should be reworked, perhaps doing more damage but snaring the vehicle on lower health, because the slow down on barely any damage means a dead sentence on a lot of times were you didnt really overextended or got yourself were you shouldnt had, making armor become something that has to be played really shily and defensive when its meant to breakthrough and give a turning point to stalemates, which as it is now seem to be resolved as WW1 were both sides arty each other until one place is weakened enough.

  • #76
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    Again, because apparently it was already forgotten:

    Penals NEED to snare most vehicles with single satchel, because they do NOT have 80-120 dmg no-scope insta shot AT weapon, without the snare deterrent they would just be pushed and/or crushed by any vehicle.

    Its a very plain and obvious balance case here.

  • #77
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    > @Katitof said:
    >
    > Its a very plain and obvious balance case here.

    When did I say it was unbalanced?
  • #78
    2 years ago
    pablonanopablonano YesterdayPosts: 2,549
    edited September 2018

    the problem resides that, you cant stay away since SU-85 negate your armor at range, but neither get closer because penals will rip and tear you with satchels, this united to a pair of mgs means you are forces into a combat of attrition that you cant win unless you manage to completely take the enemy by surprise, and while OKW, while trying to avoid the fact this faction may be unbalanced, fancies the fact it has both strong ofensive infantry units and indirect fire while having the jadgpanzer 4 makes them not have real issues facing this strategies, but IMO werhmatch doesnt has that superiority, as pzwerfers are solid rocket artillery but not even close to what an stuka does to a defensive line, lacks good assault infantry even taking in account doctrines suck as assault grenadiers, whose doesnt seem to permform much better than 5 pioniers, and while panzer grenadiers and g43 grenadiers have good close combat, they cant phisically assault a position without being shoot down by penals on the run and not taking in account that there may be an mg since you may have took it out with a pzwerfer, mortar, stuka if excess of means or you generated smoke cover due different reasons, which is still risky due the fact your low squad/model number doesnt helps, leaving you relying on cheaping them out with mortars, artillery and grenades if you hope to get the position since neither infantry or tanks are a choice, and while this sounds like a good strategy, it takes a lot of time and means that if you ever manage to capture the place the enemy already had negated/got a lot of resourcess from it.

    The previous would be understandable if we are talking about a faction whose strong point is defense, but soviets IMO being a faction that its outstanding on the ofensive that shines with the proper doctrines doesnt really should be able to be a powerhouse on the defense aswell.

    Its been a while since i played, and while i think i got everything on point again i dont mind to be pointed that something is wrong with the previously explained.

  • #79
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    You are right Pablo. Wehr do not have units to take down Allies factions once they are allowed to turtle. Look at GCS2, Wehr desperately needs the flame HT early shock to prevent Allies from teching up. Failing that, there is no way back in the war of attrition.

    The reasons being i keep saying, there is double action of Allies TD buff AND Wehr heavy armor nerf.

  • #80
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    @mrgame2 said:
    You are right Pablo. Wehr do not have units to take down Allies factions once they are allowed to turtle. Look at GCS2, Wehr desperately needs the flame HT early shock to prevent Allies from teching up. Failing that, there is no way back in the war of attrition.

    Not sure is brilliant sarcasm or terrible player in denial.

    The reasons being i keep saying, there is double action of Allies TD buff AND Wehr heavy armor nerf.

    The latter it is then.
    You are in utter denial that ost STOMPED USF and UKF and only soviets were able to stand up to them, despite being aware of what happened at CGS2, you try to ignorantly spin it into "poor ost".
    FHT was not a desperate move in any way, it was overpowering vehicle in all these games that allowed for easy dominance in early game that made it impossible for western allies to recover.

  • #81
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    No you are wrong. It is the Soviet that STOMPED both Axis factions.
    Wehr USF UKF and OKW are evenly fought.
    If you nerf the FHT, then expect to see Wehr win rates drop drastically as they have no late game now. FHT is a high risk play that is forced upon Wehr. It has a good window but nothing else once T70 hits.

    How many times were the Wehr forced into Puma to counter the T70? Allies have no such need to counter FHT.

    Back to topic, yes the satchel charge is bonkers. 2 of them homing explosives takes down a P4. Makes no sense when Pshreks costs more and miss more. I say either increase the cost to 100muni or decrease the homing distance, make it as ambush snare and not 6 man blobs rush into the fire. Even then it is still more effective than Shrek lol.

    Soviets already have their AT mines, AT infantry snares. SC is not even doctrinal.

    Soviet faction is broken sorry. Fact.

  • #82
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    I like the SC more when it was originally built to take down buildings. Even then Soviet has tons of buildings clear options. Soviet faction need to relook.

    Imo also decrease the health of their 6 man squads.
    Decrease the turn radius of SU85, decrease its sight radius until Vet2.

  • #83
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    @Katitof said:

    @Lazarus said:
    Well because it snares even full HP Panthers. That's not a small perk.

    What is your AT tank doing within 10 range of AT squad?

    Current soviet faction makes Axis players virtually impossible to make a push in 1v1 and 2v2.
    In old games, you push into FOW with your armor, or even like any war tactics. Something like Penal can just camp around a point and SC you scouting tanks.

  • #84
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    @mrgame2 said:
    No you are wrong. It is the Soviet that STOMPED both Axis factions.

    Oh yeah, that was a stomp with that massive, overwhelming, imbalanced 51% win rate.
    Meanwhile, ost had 53%, OKW 57%, USF 36% and UKF 31%.

    Wehr USF UKF and OKW are evenly fought.

    No, OKW stomped USF with 71% win ratio and walked over USF with 64% win ratio.
    Ost steamrolled USF with 62% win ratio and UKF with 66% ratio.
    It was even exclusively against soviets with 48 vs 52% for OKW and 47 vs 53% for Ost.

    Stop making an utter joke of yourself.

    If you nerf the FHT, then expect to see Wehr win rates drop drastically as they have no late game now. FHT is a high risk play that is forced upon Wehr. It has a good window but nothing else once T70 hits.

    Oh there is a massive gap to fill with USF and UKF buffs before considering anything wrong with ost, don't worry.

    How many times were the Wehr forced into Puma to counter the T70? Allies have no such need to counter FHT.

    No, allies have no such counter for HFT. The need was obviously present there as you can see on literally any CGS2 replay, there simply were no tools for USF and UKF to handle it.

    Back to topic, yes the satchel charge is bonkers. 2 of them homing explosives takes down a P4. Makes no sense when Pshreks costs more and miss more. I say either increase the cost to 100muni or decrease the homing distance, make it as ambush snare and not 6 man blobs rush into the fire. Even then it is still more effective than Shrek lol.

    The only situation that would happen is if you never scout and don't even a-move, but just move into FoW blindly, not even caring to stop when seeing AT squads you're about to pass.

    Also don't compare most expensive single use ability to permanent purchase of best infantry AT weapon in game.
    That's as much apples vs oranges as it gets.

    Soviets already have their AT mines, AT infantry snares. SC is not even doctrinal.
    Soviet faction is broken sorry. Fact.

    The only broken thing here is your perception of balance.
    It doesn't hold up to reality or reason.

  • #85
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    The win ratios is distorted by different players. Top players matches i watched do not give this ratio. Besides many USF losses are down to waiting for the OP pershing.

    Shrek is not permanent purchase, you can drop them. Yes it used to be best AT, a long time ago. Yes it is still very effective, but you need 2 PG with upgraded shreks to force away medium and up tanks. That is a luxury.
    Shrek cannot stop Allies tanks push. While SC can, and it deals a lot more damage that never misses.

    Again the Soviet and even USF/UKF, after all the patches, are better at late games, can dictate tank battles, with units like SC penals, they can just camp the points. As shown in GSC2.

    Like i say, either make SC more expensive or decrease its distance. It is only fair.

  • #86
    2 years ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 468
    edited September 2018

    "What is your AT tank doing within 10 range of AT squad?"

    Again, people cannot defend their statement without discussing tactics. The effects of the satchel are as plain as day to see. It's what the player has in their toolbox. A normal fast snare, and a nuclear snare. Other than greed, they don't need both.

    This is a problem due to the dev's not knowing what to do with the satchel, other than wanting it to be exclusive to penals, they wanted to make it more effective. The problem is; it's already effective, making it a snare was just overkill.

    Also there's no such thing as, you'll push them. No faction has ever had that problem, not even the brits who do not have snares do fine. I'm NOT talking tactics. I'm talking weapons, what you have at your disposal. ATguns, Mines, Shoulder rockets....

    See there in lies another problem. People like it...honestly i don't blame them.
    People want to spam penals and not need any other unit. It's easy-mode. It's fast, it's efficient.

    "Rapid fire normal rifles. Plinking AT rifles. Which do more than blink, that dps adds up fast. And if you get in close...well, Boom. You're done son."

    It's a unit that does everything.

  • #87
    2 years ago

    @eonfigure said:
    "What is your AT tank doing within 10 range of AT squad?"

    Again, people cannot defend their statement without discussing tactics. The effects of the satchel are as plain as day to see. It's what the player has in their toolbox. A normal fast snare, and a nuclear snare. Other than greed, they don't need both.

    This is a problem due to the dev's not knowing what to do with the satchel, other than wanting it to be exclusive to penals, they wanted to make it more effective. The problem is; it's already effective, making it a snare was just overkill.

    Also there's no such thing as, you'll push them. No faction has ever had that problem, not even the brits who do not have snares do fine. I'm NOT talking tactics. I'm talking weapons, what you have at your disposal. ATguns, Mines, Shoulder rockets....

    See there in lies another problem. People like it...honestly i don't blame them.
    People want to spam penals and not need any other unit. It's easy-mode. It's fast, it's efficient.

    "Rapid fire normal rifles. Plinking AT rifles. Which do more than blink, that dps adds up fast. And if you get in close...well, Boom. You're done son."

    It's a unit that does everything.

    while i agree that penals are too much, you cant say they dont need the satchel because they could just use the con snare because in order to snare a certain amount of damage must be dealt and the ptrs does not have that potential. thye cant snap fire like zooks, shreks, or piats but need to do 160 damage to be able to snare (thats calculated after the snare damage, so iirc the con snare does 60 or 80 damage) meaning thye need to get off a number of penetrating hits and far more bouncing hits to use a traditional snare, in that time combined with their long aim time it would otherwise be possible to simply rush and disallow them to fire.... EXCEPT the satchel keeps the threat there. if they lose the satchel they lose any capability to perform as a threat with their AT package. the dip in AI would not be worth their inability to also detter armour.
    they would be less threat than a lone AT gun to a tank, and given that for a similar investment other AT units ARE thats a bit squiffy.

  • #88
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    @eonfigure said:
    This is a problem due to the dev's not knowing what to do with the satchel, other than wanting it to be exclusive to penals, they wanted to make it more effective. The problem is; it's already effective, making it a snare was just overkill.

    Have you even read anything in this thread?
    AT satchel has extremely clear and simple role - it deters trying to push penals around as penals are the only AT squad in game that has low DPS and can't shot instantly.
    Devs do know what to do with satchel and they did exactly that - made it into a punish for trying to get too close to penals. AT penals were tested without it extensively and can you guess what was the result?
    Not a single light vehicle could ever be killed or even threatened due to pushing.

    Also there's no such thing as, you'll push them. No faction has ever had that problem, not even the brits who do not have snares do fine. I'm NOT talking tactics. I'm talking weapons, what you have at your disposal. ATguns, Mines, Shoulder rockets....

    You see words, but clearly do not read them.
    It was also said more then once in this thread that all other handheld AT shoots instantly the moment squad stops and deals alpha strike. Its extremely easy to pull of one AT volley and use a snare with USF and both axis factions.
    Penals require couple of seconds before shooting and they do not have any burst.

    No faction has this problem, because no faction has PTRS as main handheld AT weapon.
    And no, brits do NOT do fine, why do you think they are GETTING a snare next patch?

    "Rapid fire normal rifles. Plinking AT rifles. Which do more than blink, that dps adds up fast. And if you get in close...well, Boom. You're done son."

    It's a unit that does everything.

    Except it isn't.

    Penal PTRS have pitiful accuracy against infantry. So do conscript PTRS.

    Only guards can hit infantry with their PTRS reliably.

    If you try to spam and blob PTRS penals, that's one of fastest ways to lose, because LMG grens/STG volks will tear you apart without any effort.

    It always baffles me how people who have no slightest idea on development cycle or even most basic stats pretend to know it all, ending up as clowns when collided with actual functionality of units/mechanics.

  • #89
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited October 2018
    > @eonfigure said:
    > "What is your AT tank doing within 10 range of AT squad?"
    >
    > Again, people cannot defend their statement without discussing tactics.

    Yeah isn't completely wild that when discussing the balance of a tactical RTS, people bring up tactics?

    Why do you keep coming back to this thread only to ignore ALL of the conversation in it and continue asserting your absolutely incorrect point. The AT function of penals is the one thing about them that is completely fine.

    You have made multiple statements in this thread that were verifiably false. You ignored everyone who corrected you, and continued anyway. It's honestly remarkable
  • #90
    2 years ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 993

    @eonfigure said:
    "What is your AT tank doing within 10 range of AT squad?"

    Again, people cannot defend their statement without discussing tactics. The effects of the satchel are as plain as day to see. It's what the player has in their toolbox. A normal fast snare, and a nuclear snare. Other than greed, they don't need both.

    So, by your logic, USF riflemen should be tweaked down because they have an AT snare combined with the ability to get bazookas

    Or Tank Hunter Doctrine PTRS Conscripts with the ability to throw up to 6 AT nades at once

    Or Boys AT Infantry Sections also with snares

    or AT partisans

    Or the upcoming Cav riflemen with the ability to get zookas and also have this AT satchel

    The fact that ANOTHER unit is getting the AT satchel shows that the ability is considered balanced enough by the majority of the balance team

  • #91
    2 years ago
    pablonanopablonano YesterdayPosts: 2,549

    to be fair at this point i would even suggest to changue penals for guards on T1 and put penals on doctrine, as the guard snare is effective but also much worse than a satchel

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