Feedback - Commander Revamp

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  • #332
    8 months ago
    thekingsownthekingso… Posts: 447
    edited October 2018

    The M21 mortar halftrack fires 3 phosphorus rounds that devastate all infantry caught in it with a very slim chance of escaping as it not only kills but has a slow effect and reduces all infantry to health of 1.

    Compare this to the Wehr mortar half track that has only a single flame round ability that does nowhere near the amount of damage the phosphorous round does , takes over 5 flame rounds to do anything to a building and has no slow effect and costs nearly twice as much 45 munitions . Something is very wrong here .

    The M21 needs a cost increase for phosphorus or damage tweaks 25 munitions is frankly a joke.

  • #333
    8 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,792
    I'm inclined 5o agree that the wehr flame barrage is hot garbage at the moment. But it's nice to see some adjustments to the usf one
  • #334
    8 months ago
    Naya_TyanNaya_Tyan Russia Posts: 123
    edited October 2018

    Nevertheless, I would like to change for KV-8 and KV-2.
    Why?
    1) Why does the KV-2 inspire infantry if there is a Commissioner?
    2) Why does the KV-8 inspire the infantry if there is a Medical tent?

    I think to replace 1 veteran status in this way.
    1) KV-2 Replace the Inspire ability with "Aimed Fire". (Like Pak-43 which shoots)
    It enables the KV-2 to fire through any obstacle for 25 seconds. Cost 75 ammo.
    2) KV-8 Replace the ability of the Inspire to "Scorched earth".
    It enables the KV-8 to release the entire combustible mixture on infantry, tanks and buildings.
    Effective: + 25% firing range, +20 damage on infantry, Confident fire on the building, and Medium and Heavy tanks withstand 0 review when in contact with fire. Cost 50-80 ammo.

    I think "Anti Tank Overwatch" is a good idea, but too expensive. Why?
    1) It is expensive! for 200 ammo.
    2) Cause cost is radius efficiency! 45 meters is useless, it is better to make from 60 to 75 meters. (by price.)

  • #335
    8 months ago

    isn't it telling that new ability of pak 43 is to kill itself xD

  • #336
    8 months ago
    RomanovRomanov Posts: 48

    The new AT Overwatch seems like a good idea, but definately need improving. tightrope did a video on the changes and it shows how the barrage can't track even a reversing King Tiger with damaged engine. the shells do little damage but have good penetration, so its more of a deterrant nd area denial tool which is fine. the tracking definately needs to be looked at.

  • #337
    7 months ago

    Here's an updated overview of all my feedback on the OKW commanders.
    Partly based on the usage in the tourney. Updated for 1.8.

    Once again I'd like to thank the team for a great job so far and for the community approach.

    Elite Armor

    General consensus: good commander overal. Fixes to the abilities have come a long way and the addition of the 221/223 is very interesting. Still I think it needs some more minor adjustments to become a truly viable commander.

    [0 CP] 221 / 223

    • I think the cost should be slightly adjusted to 200MP/20FU, in comparison to OST's 222 (200MP/30FU). 223 upgrade can be increased to 120MP/10FU to keep total cost for the mobile cache the same.
    • Partly based on its limited use during the tourney, I think it currently comes onto the field a bit late for what it can do (as 221). I would propose to test it with the requirement moved down to having an SWS truck built, rather than an HQ set up. This should put its deployment time down by 2-3 minutes and give it a bit of shock value. Makes players choose between teching or fighting power. If this is too early for USF/UKF to deal with it, armor could be lowered and the 223 upgrade could act like armored skirts (historically earlier models of 221 had less armor).
    • The ability to engage aircraft would be nice. Could be considered for vet4 to replace the durability bonus that isn't incredibly useful.

    [4 CP] Emergency Repairs

    • All good now.

    [5 CP] Panzer Commander

    [7 CP] HEAT Shells

    • All good.

    [11 CP] Sturmtiger

    • Please consider removing light cover collision from the rocket. This unit is already very micro heavy and clumsy to use, and after going through all the trouble of manually reloading and planning the next attack it's very annoying when the rocket detonates prematurely just because there was a small bush or fence in the way. If this isn't possible, decrease the random scatter a bit so avoiding cover with the shot is actually in the player's control.
    • I think the limit of 1 shared with King Tiger is something that wasn't needed. These units serve completely different roles and do not supplement each other like the Command Panther would. I would like to see this limit removed.

    Overwatch

    General consensus: this doctrine has had an identity crisis, I hope the return of Sector Assault fixes things a bit but I remain sceptical. I still think the Jagdtiger would fit really well in this doctrine and would be much better than the LeFH 18.

    [0 CP] Early Warning and Forward Receivers

    • Good thing to have merged these with Goliath to open up another slot. Doesn't need any changes.
    • One suggestion: allow infantry to plant the flag flares (for free?) on friendly flags that are not capped by the Overwatch player. This would encourage more teamwork in team games and make this doctrinal ability more useful there. Having to do it manually with squads would be a significant micro / combat power tax.

    [1 CP] Jaeger Light Infantry (JLI)

    • Awesome change to 1 CP, they will be much more easy to integrate into build orders.
    • Please take a look at their veterancy requirements. They seem incredibly high, it takes ages to get them even past vet 2. Could be lowered by 25-33% I think.
    • There is somewhat of an issue with their weapon slots as the Scoped Gewehr 43 doesn't count as one. They can pick up 2 dropped weapons besides the Gew43 and it doesn't switch over to the last two models if they have picked up weaons.

    [2 CP] For the Fatherland

    • Can't say much about this ability, seems to be fine for what it does.`

    [8 CP] LeFH 18

    • LeFH 18 is an odd adition to the doctrine. It doesn't make it particularily attractive to choose. If one wants LeFH 18, Defensive Doctrine is generally the better choice.
    • Its new vet5 ability "aimed shot" is very lackluster. Needs to be replaced by something else. If it's possible I would replace this with an 'Overwatch' ability that automatically targets enemies in an area designated by the player. This would work similar to the overwatch ability of the 25 pounders in vCoH (see picture below). Use airburst shells for dramatic effect. Details on proposed LeFH 18 vet5 ability:

    • Personally, I would like to see this slot replaced by the Jagdtiger. It seemed a very popular idea among the community.

    • Giving Overwatch the Jagdtiger would give the doctrine the significant boost it needs with a high power unit at the end. Would synergise well with JLI and Early Warning for sight.
    • This would also open up a chance to tweak the Jagdtiger a bit to make it less powerful but more practical to use. Firepower and mobility down to Elefant levels, removing the (quite ridiculous frankly) engine upgrade. Cost down a bit.

    [10 CP] Sector Assault

    • This ability is still pretty random. I don't really know what can be done about it to make it better.
    • I do like how it opens up a forced choice where to spend munitions and it counteracts the Goliaths. But I think to become a real choice it needs to be a bit more consistant.
    • Some ideas to improve it: add a second strafe plane. Maybe add spotting to the strafe planes. Turn the random bombing into a pattern (like Air Supremacy) although this would make it much less unique.
  • #338
    7 months ago
    mrdjjag81mrdjjag81 Posts: 237

    @Romanov said:
    The new AT Overwatch seems like a good idea, but definately need improving. tightrope did a video on the changes and it shows how the barrage can't track even a reversing King Tiger with damaged engine. the shells do little damage but have good penetration, so its more of a deterrant nd area denial tool which is fine. the tracking definately needs to be looked at.

    They should increase the speed of the shell to what "arty cover" had before the nerf, if you drive any wihicle at full speed you avoid the shells easly, safely enought to get out of the zone. Also, the arty cover shells can't hit shit now, they need to reverse the shell speed to whast it was before the nerf, but thats another story

  • #339
    7 months ago

    About AT overwatch..
    I don't know, is it a final version of update. If it is not, pls pay attention to this ability, it is overdominant for it's price, especially on 2v2 close maps.
    The problem is here: since doctrine is focused on AI duties it should have an AT tool, but not too powerful. This AT-ability is most price-effective in game. It is uncounterable since it has no planes like in UKF,US or Axis AT strikes, has only 200 muni in price when same-priced analogues are not even closely that effective. With powerful AI-dominancy this doctrine can simply become overpowered. With understanding that this doctrine requires effective AT-tools, there can be some options to change:
    1. Make it possible to call only on friendly territory, so this ability is harder to use as offensive.
    or
    2. Reduce prive to 180, CPs to 10 and make it work like "Sector artyllery" with 1/2 more sectors connected.
    or
    3. Make this ability "chaotic neutral" so it will attack any vehicle which comes to target zone.

    P.S. Does really stalin on avatar is OK for forum rules?

  • #340
    7 months ago
    mrdjjag81mrdjjag81 Posts: 237

    @PrincessBubblegum said:
    About AT overwatch..
    I don't know, is it a final version of update. If it is not, pls pay attention to this ability, it is overdominant for it's price, especially on 2v2 close maps.
    The problem is here: since doctrine is focused on AI duties it should have an AT tool, but not too powerful. This AT-ability is most price-effective in game. It is uncounterable since it has no planes like in UKF,US or Axis AT strikes, has only 200 muni in price when same-priced analogues are not even closely that effective. With powerful AI-dominancy this doctrine can simply become overpowered. With understanding that this doctrine requires effective AT-tools, there can be some options to change:
    1. Make it possible to call only on friendly territory, so this ability is harder to use as offensive.
    or
    2. Reduce prive to 180, CPs to 10 and make it work like "Sector artyllery" with 1/2 more sectors connected.
    or
    3. Make this ability "chaotic neutral" so it will attack any vehicle which comes to target zone.

    P.S. Does really stalin on avatar is OK for forum rules?

    It can't hit anything more than if you, for some reason, standning still with your tanks within the circle. So it's easy counterable by driving your tank. Even with engine damage it can't hit you if you move it (lol)

  • #341
    7 months ago
    Whether or not the current AT overwatch is useful, In my opinion the fewer the "auto-target in a radius abilties" the better. I mean things like scas, p47s, il2 loiter, etc and now this. Directional air support, or targeted artillery barrages tend to be more in the interest of fair play/skill.

    Just use the IL-2 AT bomb strafe from Tank Hunter Tactics. Solid ability, and gives the player more responsibility with whether it actually hits or misses.
  • #342
    7 months ago
    The AT overwatch ability is not so good. Bad... Actually... An engine damaged KT can outrun the arty strikes let alone a properly functional tank. A buffed B4 would probably work in this commander. Give it the sturmtiger treatment of reduced OHK but increased far aoe. Drop damage to like 300 and tighten up scatter. Would take 3 direct hits to kill a tank meaning quite the investment to alpha strike a tank but enough damage to contribute or even turn a battle if it hits a tank. Improve direct fire to like.... Actually work (maybe a skill shot targeted ability like concrete piercing on the isu.... But immobile) so that it actually has Something at vet 1.
    The sentiment was great but the ability is not. The tracking is too slow for AT and making it faster could make it OP... Arty cover but with kills instead of stun lock death.

    And buffing the b4 improves 2 commanders...
  • #343
    7 months ago
    vsrvsr Posts: 90

    Brit's 17-pounder emplacement (non-doctrinal) should have its health brought to the same levels of Pak43s (doctrinal). On top of the heath, with their brace ability, they take insane amount of damage and live through. Whereas, Pak43s don't even have brace, gets instant killed to one IL-2 bombing run.

    Very weird balance.

  • #344
    7 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 359

    Alright, I just tested with cheat command to learn more about them

    Pak43: Doc weapon team
    Arc 30degree, can be decrew, can shoot through terrain & buildings
    350mp - 45fuel - 10popcap

    Pounder 17: non Doc weapon team
    Arc 45degree, rotation rate 10% faster than Pak
    400mp - 75fuel - 14popcap

    Both can be destroyed by 1 IL-2 bomb run (if Pounder17 doesnt brace)
    Just build Pak43 behind a building because it shoot through anything, then the only commander can counter Pak43 is Soviet combine arms (has recon to sight & IL2 bomb run with the cost of 260ammo to destroy 45fuel). In Dec 2018, Pak43 will have abandone ability which refund 15fuel before IL2 can bomb it. I can see Pak43 can be a bait to make Soviet waste ammo in the future

  • #345
    7 months ago

    @vsr said:
    Brit's 17-pounder emplacement (non-doctrinal) should have its health brought to the same levels of Pak43s (doctrinal). On top of the heath, with their brace ability, they take insane amount of damage and live through. Whereas, Pak43s don't even have brace, gets instant killed to one IL-2 bombing run.

    Very weird balance.

    the pak can be recrewed and shoots through....everything. its fair and balanced. both have their advantages for sure, but ill pick commanders JUST for the pak but i havent built a non doc 17lb in ages....
    the ability to smack tanks from beyond threat is just so good.

  • #346
    7 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 359

    Pak has 400hp, P17 has 900hp, though P17 target size is large so vulnerable to arty & very easy to be hit. Beside Pak is cheap and posible to build 2 of them. Most important, most non-doc Allied tank T34 SU85 Sherman Jack Crom Firefly can only take 2 shot from Pak. While Axis has Panther, Brum, King able to take more than 2 shot.

    The Pak itself doesnt strong but the ability to shoot through everything make it strong. Use Pak in an Urban map is auto win if Allies doesnt pick Arti commander.

    Ost Pak & Brit P17 is fair I can say, but Pak in Okw heavy foritify is totally unstoppable.

  • #347
    7 months ago

    I'm curious if the uproar of Stormtroopers being changed so drastically has blown over and is set in stone now or is there a chance of it not being implemented?

  • #348
    7 months ago

    stormtrooper change is interesting but needs polishing. I made my points how to tune them before, as many other people. The change is nice, but it needs tuning. It is good that they are no longer panzergrens copy, but they need to be good at specific role. The close combat ability should benefit them. Changes to tactical movement are needed, it doesn't fit with smg profile, coz you are already using them at close range to be effective. The movement penalty or retreat penalty should be toned down or removed with VET (like the vet changes sprint ability of assault grens)

  • #349
    7 months ago
    > @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > the pak can be recrewed and shoots through....everything. its fair and balanced. both have their advantages for sure, but ill pick commanders JUST for the pak but i havent built a non doc 17lb in ages....
    > the ability to smack tanks from beyond threat is just so good.

    Yup. The 43 is much better than the 17 lber IMO. The shooting through everything is pretty much the only reason, but it's a big one. I think Brit players would trade brace for that any day of the week.
  • #350
    7 months ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,057
    edited November 2018

    This is great revamp. I like everything. Especially commisar, 5 men Grens and new Stormtroopers.

    Great job by people who do research on topic and make such great changes selected from 99.9% of garbage ballance ideas.

  • #351
    7 months ago
    Lnk003Lnk003 Posts: 417
    edited November 2018

    Bug: Pretty sure tanks turret can be jammed in some circonstances. I think the bug comes from prioritize vehicule when it doesn't disable properly.
    The only one i could recreate was switching canon and select prioritize vehicule at the same time on a KV8 w shortcuts. At this point when you unprioritize the turret doesn't fire on infantry anymore only at vehicules.

  • #352
    7 months ago

    Regarding the commissar, I feel like it should have more utility. The best quality of the squad is healing, but I'd like more useful combat abilities. Propaganda arty is good, but the other 2 have problems. They are underwhelming, and it's hard to say if using them is even helpful. In almost all situations it won't be, especially since there is going to be a weakness, you can only use 1 of the 2 abilities, and only target one squad with it. It's like temporarily giving a unit a passive ability, and that's not going to change the outcome of any engagements that matter. One squad won't make the difference in those.

    So what do I propose? I am not sure, but perhaps something more active, it should have a direct effect. Perhaps breaking a squads suppressed state, and giving them a bit of temporary resistance to suppression. I don't know, that's also situational.

    Also, I hope you can fix merging into the squad. It is a significant drawback not being able to merge into it, and I would rather discard the medic model if that's what causing the issue. That model is only for flavor and aesthetic if I understood correctly anyway.

  • #353
    7 months ago

    SturmTiger is difference roles with Tiger 2, no need to limit 1
    how about a button to active/disable Sturmtiger MG ? sometime we need it defend itself
    the floating model on the 250 make me uncomfortable, why not some kind of 250 mortar but replace the mortar with the MG42 or MG34 from MG team unit as a upgrade for unharmed 250 halftrack ? and the "Dig-In" ability make the MG rotating around but cost about 2-3 seccond

  • #354
    7 months ago

    I really like the JLI CP1 change. But please take a look at their veterancy requirements, they are too high right now.

  • #355
    7 months ago

    @addvaluejack said:
    I really like the JLI CP1 change. But please take a look at their veterancy requirements, they are too high right now.

    Veterancy requirements will be lowered in the final notes.

  • #356
    7 months ago

    @Sander93 said:

    @addvaluejack said:
    I really like the JLI CP1 change. But please take a look at their veterancy requirements, they are too high right now.

    Veterancy requirements will be lowered in the final notes.

    do you know the release date?

  • #357
    7 months ago
    Andy_REAndy_RE Posts: 256 admin
    edited November 2018

    Hey guys,

    Just wanted to clarify a couple of things.

    We are now working on the live build for this mod.

    There will be some minor changes, but by and large, the mod will be released as presented in the updated patch notes post.

    A finalized patch notes will be posted once the live build is complete.

    We are aiming for this patch to go live the week of Monday December 10th.

    Andy

  • #358
    7 months ago
    capiquacapiqua Posts: 270
    edited November 2018

    Thanks @Andy for that announcement to the community. It's great news

  • #359
    7 months ago
    VonManteuffelVonManteu… Posts: 159
    edited November 2018

    **WEHRMACHT
    GENERAL FACTION CHANGES
    234 Puma

    -Puma now requires Battlephase 2 and is deployed from the Leichte Mechanized Kompanie
    -Puma now costs 270 manpower, 70 fuel**

    Does this mean Puma is removed from Mobile Defence Doctrine and now a nondoctrinal stock T2 unit? <3 praying to God

  • #360
    7 months ago

    Since the revamp is basically over can we starting about New commanders so far I have ideas of Soviets, ,Wehrmacht and OKW:

    Soviet - Overwhelming Fire Power

    2cp- Lend-Lease Infantry packages

    Hero of Socialist Labor: (40 munitions) Combat engineers receive an additional squad member armed with a non-transferable M3 submachine gun (CE can still receive Flame thrower of minesweeper)

    BAR package: (60 muntions) Lend-Lease Conscripts can now receive 1x B.A.R and RG-42 grenades (replaces Molotov cocktail)

    Improved AT package: (90 muntions) Penals can receive 2x bazooka

    4cp-: Heavy Support Weapons
    DShK 38 Heavy Machine Gun and 120mm Mortar Squad can built at Regimental Field HQ

    5cp-Conscript repair

    8cp-B-4 203mm Howitzer

    13cp IS-2

    Wehrmacht-Relentless Assault

    (0cp) Assault Grenadiers (revamped)

    Armament:
    1xSTG-44
    4xMP-40

    Upgrades
    2xSTG-44 60 munitions (requires Battle Phase 1)
    2xSTG-44 60 munitions (requires Battle Phase 3)

    Note: Assault Grenadier's STG-44 follow the Sturmpioneer profiles which are inferior to Panzergrenadiers STG

    (0cp) OKW Vehicle support
    Panzer II Ausf. L 'Luchs' Light Tank can be built in the Kampfgruppe HQ (requires Battle Phase 1)
    SdKfz 251 "Stuka zu Fuß" Half-track can be built in the Kampfgruppe HQ (requires Battle Phase 2)
    Flammpanzer 38t "Hetzer" can be built in the Kampfgruppe HQ (requires Battle Phase 3)

    (4cp) Stuka smoke bomb

    (4cp) HEAT shells
    Tanks can now use the HEAT shells ability

    (13cP) Tiger

    OKW- Volkssturm

    [0cp] Infantry suppport vehicles

    SdKfz 251 Half-track can be deployed from Command HQ requires one deployed half track (Battlegroup HQ or Mechanized Reg. HQ)

    Panzer 4 infantry support tank can be deployed from Command HQ requires two deployed half track (Battlegroup HQ and Mechanized Reg. HQ,Battlegroup HQ and Schwerer Panzer HQ, or Mechanized Reg HQ and Schwerer Panzer HQ)

    Panzer 4 infantry support tank (use the Command panzer model) is anti infantry tank which fire sherman style HE shells and is incapable of dealing to armoured vehicles.

    [2cp] Volkssturm

    Volkssturm (200 Manpower) 4 model squad that can be deployed from ambient buildings

    armament: mp-40s

    Abilities
    satchel charge
    ambush camouflage
    Riegel 43 AT mines

    Role: ambush and harassment

    Aesthetic note: use Partisan bodies with Volk heads.

    [2cp] For the Fatherland

    Same as the Overwatch version

    [2cp] Advanced Infantry Tactics

    Veteran Pioneer Leader (60 munitions): Sturmpioneers gain an additional model and panzerfausts disallows "combat package"

    Volk combat package (50 munitions): Volksgrenadiers gains immunity to Cold effects, and one Panzerschrek loses panzerfaust Disallows stgs

    OberJeager package (90 munitions): Obersoldaten gain 4 G43s and Ambush camouflage disallows LMG34

    [13cp] Tiger PzKpfw VI

    A ostheer Tiger 1 but with 5 star vet potential

  • #361
    7 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,792
    edited November 2018
    Might be too late here but I think the AT nade for sappers is a bad move. They can be cheap 5 man AT slinging troops. Cheaper and more efficient than conscripts with the AT package and certainly feels like a cheap and cheesy answer to late game armour. Keep in mind Axis forces need a minimum of nearly 50% more manpower to field less durable AT squads who lack a snare.... I think this is a major oversight....

    At the very least make the 5 man squads an upgrade that is mutually exclusive with other conversion upgrades (like the AT nade should be)

    5 man squad
    Medics
    Pyrotechnics (buffed)
    AT snare
    Heavy sapper
    All should be mutually exclusive since weapon racks are not discriminate.
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