[OST][ALL] Grenadiers with MG42L

12357

Comments

  • #122
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    > @Bogeyfox said:
    > Will you ever stop your non-relevant comments? ever?

    Will you ever post a replay rather than just talking nonsense? I'm still not sure what your point is other than "lmg42s are OP", but you don't have any good reasons.
  • #123
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    @Bogeyfox said:

    The headline... is about ----- yeah you found it is Grens and LMGs.

    Good - and you said the more expensive unit should be able to just stand there at max range and win. Therefore you have exactly what you wanted. Good chat. End thread, I guess.

    @Bogeyfox said:

    You do realize after 2 or 3 times I'm bleeding MPs....
    So spending a lot of MP by losing units is not a matter of balance?

    Correct. Spending MP by losing units is not a matter of balance. It's a matter of strategy. You'll note there are plenty of people who can play USF without bleeding themselves to death. If some people can, and you can't, and you're both playing the exact same game - then the problem isn't with the units. It's with you. Post replays in the strategy section and let the community teach you how to play. You'll win some games and feel a lot better about the whole thing.

    @Bogeyfox said:

    Then why do you say it then - Mr. facts? And I'm not interested in your bets on whatever. It's just not part of the topic.... But you always need to say something - no? I think there'll be snow somewhere i ll bet my ass on it....
    Will you ever stop your non-relevant comments? ever?

    OMGWTFBBQROLFCOPTER thread is about LMG grens!!!1!1!1!one y u do dis thing????

  • #124
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    > @Bogeyfox said:
    > As was shown

    Nothing was shown. As I said before, post a replay. You're using the tests of someone else who concluded you were wrong after they did those tests.

    Do some of your own tests, or post a replay of a game.
  • #125
    2 years ago

    @Bogeyfox @Lazarus

    To clarify as Bogeyfox requested, Grenadiers with LMG beat approaching Riflemen, who came from max distance, with two models remaining when the last Rifleman died. When Riflemen were given a single BAR, they easily beat the Grens, even when they dropped two models before getting into melee range. Grenadiers were in green cover the whole time in both scenarios.

    I didn't test with both staying at max range or medium range.

  • #126
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    @Bogeyfox said:

    Seems you will never change your style of bad communication... And it seems it's ok to spam threads with useless postings just for the being of it.

    If you bothered to read, you'd see about 70% of that was a concise, clear and irrefutable rebuttal of your horse shit arguments. LMG Grens are more expensive than RM, you yourself said expensive things should be able to stand in a field and face check everything. The game is working as you intended. You inability to employ strategy in a real time strategy game, and that every single member of the community who has come in this thread has told you that you are wrong, indicates you are the problem - not the balance. I gave you the link. Go post replays in the strategy section so people can teach you how to actually play the game.

  • #127
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    @Bogeyfox said:

    @Noitatohtori said:
    @Bogeyfox @Lazarus

    To clarify as Bogeyfox requested, Grenadiers with LMG beat approaching Riflemen, who came from max distance, with two models remaining when the last Rifleman died. When Riflemen were given a single BAR, they easily beat the Grens, even when they dropped two models before getting into melee range. Grenadiers were in green cover the whole time in both scenarios.

    I didn't test with both staying at max range or medium range.

    Thanks for clarifying your test.
    As far as I understand 1 or 2 models drop until RMs with bars are in range. If I push the retreat button I might lose 1 or 2 models with my Grens, i.e. about equal to my kills. Amplifying this to 2 or 3 grens enables them to kill 1 squad while it reaches effective combat range. And that 's exactly what I said what is imbalanced. Even if the remaining 2 RMs with bars start killing 2-3 models, I will have lost a squad.

    I think I see the problem. Did you know if you press the T key your injured squad will run away? Instead of leaving 1 RM to stand around picking their nose and dying, you can use this key to preserve them once they're on low health so you don't have to suffer a squad wipe. Also - did you know that the enemy doesn't have complete vision of the map at all times? You can sneak up on Grens instead of charging at them over negative cover - a good way to sneak is to use the T0 mortar or the smoke grenades that Rear Echelons have.

    For more clarification on how to actually play the game, post a replay here https://community.companyofheroes.com/categories/coh-2-strategy-discussion and ask for advice. Our friendly community would love to teach you the basics of combat, and will give you some tips you can practice to make yourself more competitive. You'll realize there are a lot fewer balance issues if you're good at the game.

    @Bogeyfox said:
    So why not shift LMGs to a commander to get in line with other factions...

    I agree. We should move Grens LMG42 to a commander and give them 5 man squads and semi auto rifles. Also give them the ability to pick up 2 x STGs or 2 x Panzerschrecks, or 1 x STG + 1 x Panzerschreck (for a fuel unlock, of course). We should also give Pios smoke dispensers, and Ost should get a free unit every time they tech. You know. To bring them in line with other factions.

  • #128
    2 years ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 900

    I agree. We should move Grens LMG42 to a commander and give them 5 man squads and semi auto rifles. Also give them the ability to pick up 2 x STGs or 2 x Panzerschrecks, or 1 x STG + 1 x Panzerschreck (for a fuel unlock, of course). We should also give Pios smoke dispensers, and Ost should get a free unit every time they tech. You know. To bring them in line with other factions.

    Pretty funny payback line, even though Im an USF player, but they way Bogeyfox claim how Ost should be nerf is rediculous...I dont know how he has problem with Grens. Volk is the problem to me, outnumber Riflemen, outgun Conscript. Gren clearly has weakness

  • #129
    2 years ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    Im a USF player too. Played almost thousand hours as USF.

    I don't want any nerf done to OST.
    Maybe brummbar/Panther but that is a different story and I'm not even sure if it needs nerf.

    Grens is in a good spot in the game. Why bother nerfing it? They might even need a slight vet distribution for RA to make them less fragile. Their fire power comes from a single LMG42.

    I too agree that volks and also raketen needs a nerf. If not nerf cost adjustment from the unit itself and their weapon, grenades upgrade tech.

  • #130
    2 years ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 900

    That is, Volk price increased from 235 to 250mp for their various weapon upgrade to match up unit's utility.
    Cons with some accuracy buff, actually took them down more than actually buff, mostly ammo

    Flame nade 15 to 20ammo
    Weaponslot 2 to 1
    Oorah 10 to 15ammo: Single squad; active for 10 sec. Come on, Ost infantry sprint cost 40ammo: All squad; active for 20sec.
    PPsh 40 to 60ammo: +3 Pphs. Doesnt mean I want all factions should be symmetry, but look at Volk Assaut package, 45 ammo they get +5 Mp40s, handnade, smokenade.

  • #131
    2 years ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 900

    Comparing between RMs & Gren doesnt work, it should be between every core infantry of each faction
    And again, I dont know how playing as RMs, you have problem of:
    RMs 5 men squad, cost higher but each model is still cheaper, able to grab 2Bars that able to fire on the move.
    That can not able to fight against Grens 4 men squad, have a single LMG that must stay still to fire.
    While Volk is more superior than Grens.

  • #132
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    @Bogeyfox said:

    @C3Tooth said:
    Pretty funny payback line, even though Im an USF player, but they way Bogeyfox claim how Ost should be nerf is rediculous...I dont know how he has problem with Grens. Volk is the problem to me, outnumber Riflemen, outgun Conscript. Gren clearly has weakness

    Well Tooth I don' t know how you join a discussion and you don't read the points...
    I didn't claim RMs can't win over Grens... I claimed Grens are imbalanced because they are so cheap for their upgrades/abilities.

    Tooth never said you claimed RMs couldn't win over Grens. He said it was odd you would take issue with them and not Volks.

    @Bogeyfox said:
    So why do they get it? To scale? Ok then make them 280 MP like US and Brits...

    Okay, then make them 5 man like US and Brits, and also give them better RA, and allow them to double equip LMGs (for a fuel cost, of course!)

    @Bogeyfox said:
    The LMG is too powerful for such a cheap unit esp. when grouped in 2 or 3. Together with a tank they can pretty much "Snipe" AT-Guns while moving keeps enemy while the tank keeps units dodging.

    If your evidence that Grens are OP is that 3 of them + a tank can kill an AT Gun, then we need to nerf Cons, Penals, Grens, Riflemen, Sappers, Rear Ech, Sturms, Volks, Tommies, Pios and even Combat Engineers. As 3 of any of those units + a tank will beat an AT Gun.

    @Bogeyfox said:
    And the argument they are so fragile is pretty weak. They are as weak as InfSec.

    When did Ost get a 5 man tech upgrade for their infantry squads?

    @Bogeyfox said:
    Btw how are things ridiculous? Tell me which factions has regular LMGs?

    Ostheer, OKW, UKF. What does that prove? Tell me which factions have 5 man squads? OKW, UKF, USF, SOV - Ostheer UP by this metric, gren buff needed.

    @Bogeyfox said:

    Their FP comes from RifleGrenade/Faust

    No.

  • #133
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 2,006

    @Lazarus said:
    Ostheer, OKW, UKF. What does that prove? Tell me which factions have 5 man squads? OKW, UKF, USF, SOV - Ostheer UP by this metric, gren buff needed.

    I second that motion! ;)

  • #134
    2 years ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 900

    Dont go so hard on him, he just wants
    3 Rilfes + 2 Bars vs 4 Rifles + 0 LMG
    So the game can be balanced once again.

  • #135
    2 years ago

    @Bogeyfox said:
    . And as shown in this discussion before, DPS is more important to determine 1vs1 squad win than models in the squad.

    And as is shown by the most basic functions of company of heroes, 1v1 squad engagements are are not super important to the overall balance picture. This game is about combining groups of different types of units. Grens are more vulnerable to explosives. Use your mortar to support your riflemen, it will also help you smoke MGs.

    Stop focusing on what happens when you march a rifle squad straight at a gren squad in a magical 1v1 scenario. Cover and direction matter far more to an engagements success or failure than the actual squad involved, unless elites like Rangers or STG Obers are in involved.

  • #136
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    @Bogeyfox said:
    (removed)

    @Hingie said:

    @Lazarus said:
    Ostheer, OKW, UKF. What does that prove? Tell me which factions have 5 man squads? OKW, UKF, USF, SOV - Ostheer UP by this metric, gren buff needed.

    I second that motion! ;)

    What's the argument behind it? Grens cost less. Cons don't get LMG. These kind of arguments are pretty weak compaired to the fact what kind of dps they get. And as shown in this discussion before, DPS is more important to determine 1vs1 squad win than models in the squad.

    Actually, as was shown in this discussion before, models are more important than DPS in 1 vs 1 fights, on account of spreading DPS around (both incoming and outgoing). Please read the whole discussion before posting in the thread.

    @Bogeyfox said:
    Hey C3: It's not about RMs. Don't know why you come up with it over and over again.
    Noitatohtori used RMs in his test. It showed that approaching units are likely to lose 1-2 models while closing into 0 range.
    Since all models have 80 HP it applies to all allied 5 model infs. Having 3 grens with LMGs makes 3 - 6 models...

    Perhaps you could use the true sight mechanic that Relic spent a lot of effort pioneering in this series? Did you know for example that LMG grens can't shoot you if they can't see you? Perhaps try approaching by bouncing from cover to cover - lacking the availability of cover there are also things like smoke. Smoke is a noun that refers to a visible suspension of carbon floating in the air - typically it is a byproduct of fire, however in WW2 the worlds armies developed mortar shells that could also deploy smoke. The benefit of having a visible suspension of carbon in the air, is that the human eye can not perceive beyond that carbon. This makes firing at targets standing behind that smoke difficult, and in the CoH 2 engine impossible.

    This allows you to close to 0 range while sustaining 0 damage. By sustaining 0 damage, you will lose 0 models. 0 is a numeral, usually used to represent an absolute minimum - a complete absence of. 0 damage is favorable to 1 damage, as 0 is less than 1. Likewise, 1 is less than 2, and if 0 is not an option, 1 is the much more desirable option.

    For more information on the properties of carbon and the use of numeric values to represent the concept of amounts of things, google and wikipedia contain an endless well of information. For learning the mechanics of CoH2 to be able to overcome basic obstacles like 3 x Grenadiers with LMGs, you could try posting a replay here https://community.companyofheroes.com/categories/coh-2-strategy-discussion and asking the community for help. They will be able to give you pointers to improve your capacity to understand the game and all the underlying mechanics, which will make you a much more competitive opponent.

  • #137
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    edited December 2018
    > @Bogeyfox said:
    >
    >
    > Not sure what's the point. Because I repeat myself here. This is not a discussion about strategy but balance. And paying more for a unit with the same role should have an impact in a 1vs1 situation (imho).

    Your honest opinion is wrong, in a couple of ways. The first is that just because you're bad at using strategy doesn't mean a unit isn't balanced. You can't just ignore strategy. That's not how it works. Because it's a strategy game. The hints in the title. The second, is that you pay more for LMG Grens (240 MP + 60 muni) then you do for RM (280 MP) Tommies (280 MP) or Cons - so the game is actually doing what you want already. The more expensive unit is winning (and starts losing once those Allied units buy upgrades). Finally, paying more for a unit has no impact on its 1 v 1 performance. A single T34 will kill a single Elefant (or a Luchs a SU-85, or an AEC a JagdTiger). That doesn't mean that these units need buffs. It means you need to use your brains when you buy them.

    (removed)I recommend posting a replay here https://community.companyofheroes.com/categories/coh-2-strategy-discussion and asking our community to teach you the strategy in this real time strategy game. If that's too hard for you, then unfortunately COH 2 is not the game for you. If that's too much for you, then you still have another option! You can always play automatch vs AI. It's much easier than fighting players so it'll take a lot of pressure off you while you learn the game. Of course, if you don't like that or if it turns out the AI is too hard, you can always play custom games with a mod from the mod workshop to make USF OP so you don't have to learn the basics.

    Really, the world is your oyster here, and being very accommodating.
  • #138
    2 years ago
    > @Bogeyfox said:
    > So can you explain how removing LMGs from grens and move them to a commander would affect so much the balance and the overall OST-performance?

    Sure thing. So removing lmg42s would cause grens not to scale at all into the late game. Even cons would laugh as their performance zoomed past grens as time ticked on.

    This would cause grens to spend little to no time on the front, as they would be bullied around by penals, 2x BAR rifles, and 2x 5 men Bren Tommies. This means it would be harder to snare tanks, prevent mg flanks, and capture/harass enemy territory.

    The fact that you asked me to explain what would happen if a mainline infantry lost its weapon upgrade tells you everything you need to know about this discussion. Play the game more; as ALL sides, and then see how you feel about balance. Grens are one of the last things affecting balance negatively right now
  • #139
    2 years ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 900

    6 model holding rifles of Cons can destroy 4 men rifle of Gren, take out Gren's LMG, they will be worst than Cons.

    Everyone already repeated for hundred times
    If your 5 men Riflemen with 2 Bars really need to fight against 4 men Gren with 0 LMG, its your playing, not the game.

    Though I agree their single LMG actually do more DPS than 2 Bars, is a bit too much. Just need some twist between a LMG vs a Bar or 2 Bars. Not taking out LMG

  • #140
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    edited December 2018

    (removed)

    @Bogeyfox said:

    It sounds like Ost has no other option. PzGrens are specialized AI units with an AT upgrade. So i can't see how bullying would work...

    Exactly the same way it works with Grens vs Riflemen. A cheaper unit kills them at long range. Try playing Ostheer, you'll see it for yourself.

    (removed)

    @Bogeyfox said:

    The funny part is that other members of this community feel too that grens are out of line esp. the LMG upgrade.

    No they don't. There are 12 people other than you in this thread, and not a single solitary one has agreed that Grens are OP. Not one. At best they've offered no opinion, otherwise they've pointedly and in no uncertain terms told you that you are totally wrong. You stand alone on this.

    (removed)

  • #141
    2 years ago
    le12role12ro Posts: 2,333 mod
    edited December 2018

    (Moderator Input) Let's focus on the discussion of balance instead of arguing over people's skills. This forum welcomes any type of players, from any background, from any skill, from any game mode.

  • #142
    2 years ago
    @Bogeyfox Grens Lmgs are not unbalanced in the way they work. They are the most vulnerable squad in the game, hence their long range weapon upgrade.

    You have not once proven or shown in a replay that gren lmgs are unbalanced, so stop telling everyone else to prove stuff when you haven't done that once yourself. I have explained the weaknesses of grens to you several times, it is those weaknesses that allow them to have such a strong upgrade.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

  • © SEGA. SEGA, the SEGA logo, Relic Entertainment, the Relic Entertainment logo, Company of Heroes and the Company of Heroes logo are either trademarks or registered trademarks of SEGA Holdings Co., Ltd. or its affiliates. All rights reserved. SEGA is registered in the US Patent and Trademark Office. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.

DeutschEnglishEspañolFrançaisItalianoРусский