OKW Fortified doc.

#1
7 months ago

This thread is about me compare Defensive doc between OKW & OST, pointing out how OP of this doc on OKW
Here is an image compare abilities between 2 Axis faction.

  • At first, about the similarity. Both have Pak43. The Pak43 (40fuel/10pop) is too cheap & low pop compares to Qpounder-17 (75fuel/17pop), while most of Allied tanks are fragile & die in 2 hits. Beside, shooting through everything make Pak43 too powerful, cheap to build but hard to destroy in Urban maps. I really hope to see ‘shooting through everything’ will be removed.
  • Both have similar offmap Sector/Zeroing Arty. This is not a really big deal in OST, but powerful in OKW, I will talk about this later
  • Sturm can build Tank traps/Flak placements, Trenches vs Pion can build Tank traps. I think this is enough to explain how much Op of this OKW commander slot, 3 abilities in 1.
  • Volks can build Smine, bunker (and sandbag) vs Grens can build Trenches, Barbed wire, Sandbag (and bunker). OKW already have Flak to defend from infantry, they don’t need Bunker. With both Flak & Bunker, they can access to whatever they have. If they’re low of fuel, they build Bunker. If they’re low of ammo, they build Flak. So yes, again OKW is more powerful to have Bunker ability.
  • LeFH18 vs Hulldown. Hulldown actually get tanks immobile, which is not a big deal. However, LeFH18 in OKW is a big problem.

Here is the best OST can setup their defense with Defensive doc

Tank traps block tank movement, stay behind are mine fields protected by Bunkers, behind Bunkers is Pak43 with indirect fire of Mortar & Panzerwerfer. This defensive can be break through with mass arty.

Here is OKW setup defense with Fortified doc

Which tactic for Allied that able to break through Tank trap with better barbed wire, Schumine/Sminefield behind the Tank trap wall protected by Flak/Bunker, while SchewererPanzer HQ & Pak43 behind Flak/Bunker, with LeFH18 + Stuka & Zeroing Arty keeping bombar the Allied. This defensive is even impossible to scout because Spotlight can detect camo infantry, while Flak can shoot down Recon plane.

Comments

  • #2
    7 months ago

    This doctrine is stupid OP in team games. I honestly still can't believe this doctrine got a howitzer back when the Mg34 became stock.

    They removed and MG, and replaced it with a freaking howitzer, ZERO testing, ZERO feedback. Let's just toss this on there with a heavy AT gun on a faction that has a stock super-heavy and just see what happens. I love that they only gave them the howitzer to counter brit emplacements, which have since been nerfed straight to hell. Meanwhile fortifications doctrine continues on.

  • #3
    7 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,018
    edited December 2018

    First of all - you've put some effort in to making a good thread, so that's lovely to see. With that said, lets go step by step through the abilities.

    1: sturms building junk vs Pios building tank traps - I don't necessarily think this is a balance issue as such. Tank traps are relatively easy to dispose of and also stop your own tanks and you tend to not see them used frequently because of that. With regards to having 3 abilities where as Ost only gets 1, that's an issue for the Ostheer commander, I think. We've gradually changed most of these "defensive" abilities to be a single slot, instead of multiple. It's just power creep as the balance team updates every few doctrines to make them more user friendly/less wasteful. Another good example is the Command Panther (takes 1 slot, but also comes with Mark Target, an ability that takes a Soviet slot) or the USF jeep (comes with 155mm artillery).

    I'd say for this issue, bringing Ost (and other factions) in to line with OKW is the better choice - because having a whole doctrine slot taken up by tank traps is pretty depressing.

    2: volks can build bunkers/s-mines - Volks are everywhere, S-Mines and MG bunkers are fantastic. This is a massive value booster to your army. Except for the fact that bunkers are pop-cap free MGs (an issue related to bunkers, not the doctrine specifically) I don't find anything too OP in this ability.

    It's just great value because Volks are everywhere because they're exceptionally good which is an issue that has been done to death here.

    3: Pak43 - I tend to not see them as I kick around in 1 v 1s. I was sure we'd taken the building penetration off of the Pak43? If it's still there it needs to go and play by the same rules as the 17-pdr, no question. As for the price discrepancy though, the 17-pdr is much more durable than the Pak43 in that it can't be decrewed and can be repaired so that doesn't bother me so much.

    4: LeFH18 - too good in combo with the Pak43 and the KT. It needs to be replaced with something else, otherwise this doctrine covers you from literally all directions.

    5: zeroing arty. Fucking. Zeroing. Arty. This ability is such a pain in the ass, more so in team games. Spec Ops pops flares, Zeroing arty zeros in, there's nothing you can do. At first I was going to suggest replace it with the arty cover from the UKF doctrine (stuns units rather than nukes them), but then I realized it doesn't matter what you replace it with - as long as you can combo it with flares it's going to be OP as all shit.

    So I think the solution to zeroing arty, is to actually remove the flares from Spec Ops doctrine.

    Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter - look forward to see what you think

  • #4
    7 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 393
    1. Both Sturmpion & Pion are great unit as their own, Sturm has lower utility but really great in combat, while Pion has the best utility of all engineer units. Giving 3 abilities makes them has every access that Allied engineer can ever wish for, and that take only a single slot is too much.

    2. The bunker it self is not a big problem as in OST, but in OKW is a big problem, that gives them too many defensive building choice, they already have Flak to defense from infantry, free popcap bunker with great sight is too much. This is why Bunker in OKW better than OST

    3. I dont complain about the damage this does, but shooting through buildings, forest, ground is a thing. Having Spotlight HT is another one. And again, this make Pak43 in OKW more powerful than OST

    4. OST is a defensive faction, their weapon teams are the best, they doesnt have a heavy tank or elite infantry non-doc, so at least they dont have the best offensive units when they pick Defensive doc.
      OKW however, is an offensive faction, they have Super Heavy tank & Elite infantry non-doc, with good arty Stuka. Giving them massive option of defense , combined with super arty option LeFH18 & Zeroing. They have everything. Most of the game OKW players tend to pick this commander.

    When balance team tune up down units in general, and taking care to revamp un-used commanders. They should also take a look of over-used commanders, too.

  • #5
    7 months ago

    I play with this doctrine a lot in team play. I think this doctrine is balanced in 1V1, 3V3 and 4V4 games. But it is OP in 2V2 games. I think the reason is it accesses both Pak 43 and LeFH 18.

    1. I will start with Pak 43. In 1V1 games, you can't find enough targets for it. In 3V3 or 4V4 games, the maps are too big and its short range restricts its performance. But in 2V2 games, Pak 43 is a beast.

    2. For the LeFH 18, it is a easy target for Priest or Saxon in 3V3 or 4V4 games. But in 2V2 games, its range could cover almost the whole map.

    3. For the sturmpion utility buff, I think this is fine. Because sturmpion is too expensive and fragile, I rarely see people build more than one sturmpion while most people build at least two pions, one for mine sweeper and one for flame thrower.

    4. The Flak is balanced, it doesn't access to vet bonus. If Bofors is taken damge, you can repair it. However, if Flak is taken damage, OKW do not have half-track for reinforcement.

    5. Bunker is too powerful for OKW.

  • #6
    7 months ago

    But if we remove LeFH from this doctrine, how could OKW counter UKF sim city? LeFH is the only reliable method counter Bofors. OKW lacks scout methods which means IeiG will be inaccurate and Stuka is not good against fortifications.

  • #7
    7 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 393
    1. Sure Pak43 is best in 2v2, but its not just that, 3v3 4v4 has many Allied tanks run around and easily to have a target cross in Pak43 shooting cone. Especially in Urban map Essen Steelworks; Ettelbruck Station.. with its ability to shoot through buildings.

    Its not the only unit itself, its about the other options that OKW Fortified doc has that make it strong. USF fighting position surely weaker than OST bunker (they have great sight, immune to small fire), but USF can put Rear for infinity grenade with tank traps that prevent Axis to push tanks in and destroy fighting position. That make USF fight-pose & OST bunker balance.

    • If we compare between Pak43 & Pounder17, each has some pros & cons, though Pounder17 is too expensive in both fuel & popcap without able to shoot through buildings. Beside Pounder17 in British doesnt work well compared Pak43 in OKW due to British lack of tank traps that block tanks to come closer.
    1. Its not like Allied always pick Arty commander, beside Allied Arty commanders can not fight back numerous Arty option that OKW Fortified doc has: Stuka is strong on its own as non-doc, they have LeFH18 & Zeroing Arty too.

    A faction & commander designed to have a strong aspect but weak others. OKW has non-doc strong offensive unit, with camo ATgun, cheap supportgun, non-doc MG34 is enough for defensive (Im sure their ATgun has camo because they didnt have MG to defend ATguns, but now they do). Giving Bunkers,Flak,Pak,mine field for better defensive combine with LeFH18 & Zero for long range is too much.

    1. Are you sure they're fragile? I see this alot, just less than Volk spam

    2. Flak is good, I dont complain on it. Just bunker for OKW to combine with Flak is the problem.


    Remove LeFH, they still have cheap supportgun, Stuka non-doc, or Zeroing in Fortified.
    Reminding you that the unit itself is not a problem, its the other options in each faction. OST LeFH shoot blindly, OKW has spotlight to fire accurate everytime. Everyone agrees spotlight is the best 'scouting' in COH2

  • #8
    7 months ago
    > @addvaluejack said:
    > But if we remove LeFH from this doctrine, how could OKW counter UKF sim city? LeFH is the only reliable method counter Bofors. OKW lacks scout methods which means IeiG will be inaccurate and Stuka is not good against fortifications.

    Overwatch doctrine is recieving the LeFH in the next update. So fortifications should lose it and get something else
  • #9
    7 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 393

    I agree LeFH in Overwatch is less Op than Fortified. And seriously, I dont think Fortified should get something else. 2 commander slots with: Flak, Trench, Tank traps, Bunker, Smine - are too much, split them to 3 slots.

  • #10
    7 months ago

    @C3Tooth said:
    1. Sure Pak43 is best in 2v2, but its not just that, 3v3 4v4 has many Allied tanks run around and easily to have a target cross in Pak43 shooting cone. Especially in Urban map Essen Steelworks; Ettelbruck Station.. with its ability to shoot through buildings.

    Its not the only unit itself, its about the other options that OKW Fortified doc has that make it strong. USF fighting position surely weaker than OST bunker (they have great sight, immune to small fire), but USF can put Rear for infinity grenade with tank traps that prevent Axis to push tanks in and destroy fighting position. That make USF fight-pose & OST bunker balance.

    • If we compare between Pak43 & Pounder17, each has some pros & cons, though Pounder17 is too expensive in both fuel & popcap without able to shoot through buildings. Beside Pounder17 in British doesnt work well compared Pak43 in OKW due to British lack of tank traps that block tanks to come closer.

    Both OST and UKF have snipers which grant great sight so their at fortification could find targets easier

    1. Its not like Allied always pick Arty commander, beside Allied Arty commanders can not fight back numerous Arty option that OKW Fortified doc has: Stuka is strong on its own as non-doc, they have LeFH18 & Zeroing Arty too.

    A faction & commander designed to have a strong aspect but weak others. OKW has non-doc strong offensive unit, with camo ATgun, cheap supportgun, non-doc MG34 is enough for defensive (Im sure their ATgun has camo because they didnt have MG to defend ATguns, but now they do). Giving Bunkers,Flak,Pak,mine field for better defensive combine with LeFH18 & Zero for long range is too much.

    I agree the combination is too much.

    1. Are you sure they're fragile? I see this alot, just less than Volk spam

    Is this a 2 players vs 1 player case or 3 players vs 1 player case?
    Anywary, my point is sturmpion is too expensive. 2 sturmpions have the same cost as 3 pions, so every single sturmpion need to fill more roles than every pion, that's why the doc utility buff is not op.

    1. Flak is good, I dont complain on it. Just bunker for OKW to combine with Flak is the problem.

    Remove LeFH, they still have cheap supportgun, Stuka non-doc, or Zeroing in Fortified.
    Reminding you that the unit itself is not a problem, its the other options in each faction. OST LeFH shoot blindly, OKW has spotlight to fire accurate everytime. Everyone agrees spotlight is the best 'scouting' in COH2

    Spotlight can not help motors. Motors have better accurate shot targets in sight then targets in fog of war..

  • #11
    7 months ago

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    > @addvaluejack said:
    > But if we remove LeFH from this doctrine, how could OKW counter UKF sim city? LeFH is the only reliable method counter Bofors. OKW lacks scout methods which means IeiG will be inaccurate and Stuka is not good against fortifications.

    Overwatch doctrine is recieving the LeFH in the next update. So fortifications should lose it and get something else

    Overwatch will access to JLI, too. JLI are great support unit. I will use Overwatch more in next patch.

  • #12
    7 months ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    This commander will complete all the arsenal that is missing in OKW which other commander don't do. Thats why i dont even need to think to select any commander when using OKW. Their powerful Off map makes them so strong coz it targets all inside the ring. I think tank overwatch will suck so hard vs this ability when it goes live.

  • #13
    7 months ago

    @Xloss said:
    This commander will complete all the arsenal that is missing in OKW which other commander don't do. Thats why i dont even need to think to select any commander when using OKW. Their powerful Off map makes them so strong coz it targets all inside the ring. I think tank overwatch will suck so hard vs this ability when it goes live.

    It lacks any scouting methods like flare or JLI. But it is still OP in general.

  • #14
    7 months ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235
    edited December 2018

    It lacks any scouting methods like flare or JLI. But it is still OP in general.

    They dont need scouting methods mate cozthey got raketen, IR HT and kubel.

  • #15
    7 months ago

    Lol, raketen, these sneaky bastards can use camo in the open fields.

  • #16
    7 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 393

    This commander will complete all the arsenal that is missing in OKW which other commander don't do.

    This line is my point of this thread.

    They get emplacements like Brit
    They get tank trap, bunker combo like USF
    They get mines like OST
    They get nothing from Soviet because Soviet engineer has nothing
    They get numerous option of Arty for indirect support

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