[ALL][ALL] Armour penetration bias

2»

Comments

  • #32
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    Use the +10 range to create a bubble for yourself. You can fire on the panther and it can't shoot back, if it can rush you with impunity you desire to lose it. A single AT gun, a squad of sappers even will ensure they need to fully commit and likely lose the tank or fall back and gain nothing. Don't understate the value of range.
  • #33
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    edited January 2019

    @Bogeyfox said:

    A P4 with 160 Damage needs 3 pen-shots to kill a FF and guess 8 seconds reload vs 5.5 second.

    3 x 160 = 480. FFs have 640 HP. 640 > 480. Therefore 3 penetrating shots are not enough to kill a Firefly. In a balance discussion, you should know the stats of the units you're discussing.

    @Bogeyfox said:

    So round about 17 seconds against 24. Even if the P4 fails 1 time it has still a 2 seconds advantage. So hitting hard is only an advantage for Heavy Tanks.

    You're right. But what about the + 20 range the Firefly has over the P4?

    @Bogeyfox said:

    Your idea spotter spotter spotter and I wait for what. The others to use flairs and smoke.... It's pretty useless to say you need this and that unit. Simply because then you need to add up costs. And then i pay a lil less in fuel but 400 more MP and a lot more POP cap to draw equal. That's good balancing. And yes the enemy only uses the panther and no infantry or other supports.

    You don't draw equal. You come out better. You keep concocting these 1 v 1 scenarios where Fireflies and Panthers just sit at sight range and fight each other, but that is not the reality of the game.

    @Bogeyfox said:

    BTW in long range due to PEN and Acc the FF needs 2 more shots normally while the Panther only needs 1 more shot. So in most situations it's 56 secs vs. 27 secs.

    Doesn't matter if the Panther never gets in range.

    Edit: Here's a nice example to teach you about Fireflies and holding back German armor. Also some good examples of evolving strategy to deal with Panther spam.

  • #34
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    @Bogeyfox said:

    OMG I flipped the numbers. And yet it doesn't change a thing. And shows once more Your poor/aggressive communication style.

    Then you're still wrong. 3 x 200 damage = 600. 600 < 640. It's still 4 shots to kill a PIV. Again, this is a pretty egregious error to make.

    @Bogeyfox said:

    And how far do you get in 20 secs?

    As far as the Fireflys reverse key takes me, I guess.

    @Bogeyfox said:

    The time? 44:30 I see a panther getting away from 2 FFs t34s charging in and killed by a 2nd helping Panther and the Pak. Allies -1 tank Axis -0 tanks.... So specify what you mean.

    I mean that if you watch the video you will see Allies using tank destroyers to win tank fights. Whether a tank gets away or not doesn't matter. What matters is if it has been pushed away from the fight. Case in point. HMGs don't kill infantry (normally). Just because you don't get wipes though doesn't mean they aren't valuable tools. The value comes from the HMG making infantry vulnerable to being killed, and therefore forcing them to run away - as while they run away they can not fight. So too, the TD does not need to kill a tank. It simply needs to render it useless, as Fireflies are certainly want to do.

    At 1:01:11 you will see the Axis have one tank. So clearly somewhere in that video there are a lot of dead Panthers. I encourage you to watch it to see how the tank engagements unfold.

    @Bogeyfox said:

    And again you can't balancy a game by constraining units. Because all balance fails as soon as 1 piece of the chain is missing.... But hey convince me with a real argument.

    Other way my dude. It's your thread. Convince us that combined arms isn't a balance factor.

    @Bogeyfox said:

    And this topic is not about Panther vs. FF. It is just 1 example. MOst of all Allied AT infantry doesn t scale to the late game....

    Then why did you insist on going on about the FF?

    @Bogeyfox said:

    Which is much more important.... for the combined arms....

    No it isn't....

  • #35
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    What allied AT doesn't scale? Jackson's get HVAP that buffs damage and pen, su85s get MASSSSSSSSSSIVE pen buffs to its already formidable stock pen, the firefly can get tulips. All of them out range the enemy by default. Soviet get decent deflection damage off ptrs' for their hand AT, and ukf and usf can slap AT on the cheapest unit they want should they opt to.

    Allied AT scales fuckin well. Idk what you are on about...
  • #36
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    > @Bogeyfox said:
    >
    > And why does AXIS AT INF weapons have odds of 1 against most allied t3 tanks? Esp. those who are anti inf....
    > Special abilities to balance esp. having ammo costs, IMHO is not a way of balancing regular features....

    Axis handheld AT is exclusively on 4 man squads that cost at least 300 MP. It is also more expensive than Allied AT. It also is not on a unit that gets an engine damage ability. The more expensive, more vulnerable unit gets stronger AT.
  • #37
    2 years ago
    As laz said, Shreks are only on squishy expensive squads. Hell Soviet can get Shreks for cheaper than the axis can via partisans.
    It's not rocket science.
    You can out zooks on a 200mp squad, piats on 210mp, both of whom can become 5 man squads For those keeping track at home that 2/3 the price and 20%more durability. BALANCE is keeping these bonuses in check by granting the enemy bonuses of similar value, like higher pen and damage.
  • #38
    2 years ago

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    What allied AT doesn't scale? Jackson's get HVAP that buffs damage and pen, su85s get MASSSSSSSSSSIVE pen buffs to its already formidable stock pen, the firefly can get tulips.

    Su76 scales well, a Vet 3 57mm is by far the best stock AT gun in the game, the vet 3 M4C has 300+ penetration with hvap shells at vet 3, vetted m10s could win nascar races w/ speed boost, etc.

    Allies tanks scale incredibly well offensively @Bogeyfox The only problem is keeping them alive, but that's the price you pay when you get better offensive bonuses.

    What do you mean by infantry AT weapons scale bad? Vetted guards are ferocious, and can set up tanks for all kinds of options with button (tulips, satchels, regular snare). Rear Echelon zook squads (the best squad for zooks) scale GREAT, getting the 5th man at vet 3. A luxury pgrens dont get; instead they get RA which doesn't help much against a lot of tanks.

  • #39
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited February 2019

    @Bogeyfox said:
    Su76 = SU85? Or T76?

    No Su76 does not equal SU85. Learn to read. Both the Su76 and su86 scale well, I was adding to armadillos list.

    @Bogeyfox said:
    Do you understand the concept of penetration? Or odds? If a tank has 160 armour a pen of 300+ doesn't increase the chances to deal full damage. It won't even deal more damage..

    Yes. Do you understand that there are lots of tanks the axis have that have 250+ armor? And a couple with 300+?

    @Bogeyfox said:
    As you can see below, the firefly and the comet perform worst of all tanks with damage over time. Even a Stug is better. And before you start crying about hit odds, most units perform pretty well and far above .7, i.e. 3 out 10 on average. So hitting faster compensates well for lower damage. So it's pretty wrong to say the FF does most damage. Most tanks need at least 4 hits. Other tanks like the stug are there 15 secs after the initial hit.

    And you completely ignore that the firefly outranges the Stug, along with just about EVERY OTHER TYPE OF TANK IT FIGHTS. Congrats on wrapping your mind around the concept of DPS, but guess what? The DPS of two competing units doesn't matter if one of them isn't even in range when its taking damage.

    Learn to play the game. It doesnt matter that the dps of the firefly is lower if you actually MICRO YOUR UNIT PROPERLY, and keep it out of range of things like the Stug.

    @Bogeyfox said:
    Vetted guards? Sorry didn't know Guards come out vetted from the t0 building. What's the point? That some special doctrinal units do a good job? Hey, OST can get smoke for tanks... LOL

    YOU literally just complained that allied AT doesnt scale well. Veterancy=scaling. Please stop typing like a 13 year old.

    @Bogeyfox said:
    Didn't know the 5th man is shooting rockets out of his aaaaaaas..... Hello? Against a tank he's just useless.

    If you don't understand the advantage a 5 man AT squad has against tanks over a 4 man AT squad, then you need to stop posting on this forum and play the game more. Please.

  • #40
    2 years ago

    @Bogeyfox said:
    What's so difficult to talk about regular units? To say special doctrinal can get something - what's the point. If you make an air raid it hits hard and therefor all balance is justyfied? It's at best a weak argument but to be honest just bullshit.

    it was an example about how the axis pay more for their AT all the time. i used the ONLY example of the allied getting the same AT weapon to enforce that point. it would be like comparing the 17lb and pak43 because *******gasssssssssp******* they are DIRECTLY comparable.

    It's not rocket science.
    You can out zooks on a 200mp squad, piats on 210mp, both of whom can become 5 man squads For those keeping track at home that 2/3 the price and 20%more durability. BALANCE is keeping these bonuses in check by granting the enemy bonuses of similar value, like higher pen and damage.

    Didn't know the 5th man is shooting rockets out of his aaaaaaas..... Hello? Against a tank he's just useless. So what's the argument. Axis has only 4 men squads? That's why the get a bonus to fight t3 tanks?

    why are you even posting if you dont even pretend to understand the absolute basics of the game? more models= more staying power. 5 men can lose 2 models and still afford to risk popping off another shot, 4 man squads cannot.
    more models mean enemy small arms is less focused on singular models meaning they are less likley to drop, meaning they stay around longer and put out more rockets. the 5th man doesnt shoot rockets out of his ass, but his ass allows the squad to shoot more rockets none the less.

  • #41
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    @Bogeyfox said:

    Su76 = SU85? Or T76?
    Do you understand the concept of penetration? Or odds? If a tank has 160 armour a pen of 300+ doesn't increase the chances to deal full damage. It won't even deal more damage....

    I'll remind you the entire premise of this thread was that the pen on Axis AT weapons was too high. Yet now in the face of information that several Allied units reach 300+ pen, suddenly having pen beyond 160 does not matter? Could you perhaps reconcile these two thoughts by taking only one of these contradictory positions - or perhaps clarify your stance?

  • #42
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    > @Bogeyfox said:
    > 1 more great argument.... see above and try to understand what a 5th man does against - omg.


    In "the above" you talk about how Spios can beat a rifle squad. Okay. In the part from me you quoted, I said a 5 man AT squad has an advantage AGAINST TANKS over a 4 man AT squad.

    Does Spios against rifleman = an AT squad fighting against a tank? No.

    Three words: area of effect. Spios can beat Rifleman because of target size. When a tank shell explodes at a squads feet, the larger a squads model count, the more likely that squad is to survive. It's really simple
  • #43
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    @SkysTheLimit save yourself. They are either a bad troll or don't understand the fundamentals of balance, either way its a waste of time and effort engaging
  • #44
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    @Bogeyfox We've given you plenty of arguments. It's you that keeps resorting to the ridiculous. What allied unit can't pen 1 out of 200 shots?

    If you need to exaggerate to make your case, then you don't have one. Running out of things to say here, so I'm done
  • #45
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    @Bogeyfox you don't understand the fundamentals of balance, things like a single purpose unit does its given job better than a generalist unit of the same price point. You don't buy a Swiss army knife and bitch because the buck knife cuts better.

    Allied hand AT has higher DPS potential at the cost of reliability, axis hand AT is reliable as hell, but shoots less. BALANCE is achieved by each trait being offset. In this case potential DPS and saturation is offset by reliability and exclusivity. Not rocket science.

    Larger squads are offset by lower dps. They stay longer to deal damage longer instead of a flash in the pan style of axis units. Again, not rocket science.

    There is little point in debating with you because the simplicity of basic balance is lost on you and you spew out a whack of words related or not to the discussion and make it impossible to properly return as it's a quagmire of bullshit mostly. I'd be happy to discuss should you learn how to do so.
  • #46
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    edited March 2019

    @Bogeyfox said:

    I can't see several . And the premise is a bias. Would be cool if you stick to the facts not your own fiction.
    But for you: AXIS INF AT WEAPONS have odds of 1.00 for most allied tanks and even .45 for a IS-2.
    Allies have .6 for a PZ4 a regular AXIS tank and worse for higher armour.

    Okay. This is a workable premise. Axis inf AT weapons have higher pen than Allied inf AT weapons. This is true and there is something worth discussing here. All Allied AT infantry have access to engine damage abilities, and all Allied AT infantry are 5 or 6 man squads, while Axis infantry are completely limited to 4 man squads that do not have snares.

    These are all facts. So, what is your proposed solution for balance? Do we increase Axis squads to 5 man, give them snares, and increase Allied penetration to match Panzerschrecks (or lower Panzerschrecks to match Bazookas?) Because that would be balanced.

    @Bogeyfox said:

    Even the idea a FF does more damage is only true for the 1st and 2nd hit. Thereafter reloading times are eating up this advantage. And most tanks have more than 400 HPs, i.e. 2 hits from the FF.

    No. Please stick to facts.

  • #47
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited March 2019
    People forgot the pace of game is faster now thanks to standardise damages. For tanks, every free snipe shot, every armor bounced, every slow inaccurate turret, every fast snare, means you will lose the unit in just one encounter, no matter how expensive something like a panther.

    People also like to mention heavily armor jadpanther and elefant, but those take slowest to reposition and relock on. A side flank is much easier than against multiple allies TD wall, negating penetrations.

    Besides putting one of them means you wont get any mobile panther, you need brumbar or p4 to protect against a superior allies army size due to pop cap disadvantages axis suffer.
  • #48
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    @Bogeyfox said:

    @Lazarus said:
    Okay. This is a workable premise. Axis inf AT weapons have higher pen than Allied inf AT weapons. This is true and there is something worth discussing here. All Allied AT infantry have access to engine damage abilities, and all Allied AT infantry are 5 or 6 man squads, while Axis infantry are completely limited to 4 man squads that do not have snares.

    1st let's get to facts. USF has a vet snare on RMs and no snare on REs. Which is quite not the same what you say.

    It's exactly what I say. USF can put AT on infantry with a snare. Do RM get a snare? Yes. They count. Moving on.

    @Bogeyfox said:

    >

    2nd Brits have a 5 men upgrade which is not present from the beginning and the snare is on Sappers not ISs.

    I never said it was present from the beginning of the game, I said they had access to it. Also, can you put PIATs on sappers? Yes. Therefore their AT infantry gets snares. Next.

    @Bogeyfox said:
    Leaving Penals with a very powerful AT-satchel after an upgrade.. Now the satchel needs to engage so close I could say:" Bad micro - it's easy to avoid the penals....". But Penals are another debate....

    "an upgrade" here being the AT weapons that I said they get. So by necessity, if they are AT infantry they MUST already have the satchel unlocked. You can say what you want. The satchel is a snare.

    @Bogeyfox said:
    Not sure where the 6 men squad is? Or do Cons have regulat AT weapons???

    Penal squads have 6 men.

    @Bogeyfox said:

    As I said either ALLIED INF-AT weapons need a higher pen or axis needs to be lowered ....

    but that would be imbalanced, because allied AT would perform equal to Axis AT, but Axis AT would be on small squads with no snare. So you need to amend your proposal to include a buff to Axis AT squad size and give them all snares.

    Up to you.

  • #49
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    edited March 2019

    @Bogeyfox said:

    YOUR QUOTE: All Allied AT infantry have access to engine damage abilities, and all Allied AT infantry are 5 or 6 man squads [...]
    YOu didn't say some are very poor units, i.e. sappers or have low range abilities. What you imply is, that allied AT-units work the same as axis + 1 or 2 models + and snare abilities....

    YOu didn't say Axis AT is on very weak units. What you imply is, that Axis AT-units work the same as Allied + some extra pen.

    @Bogeyfox said:
    This picture is false. And to be correct allies have no on the fly weapon upgrades on US (except 1 bazooka) and Brits. Axis has....

    This picture is false. And to be correct Axis have no weapon rack upgrades. Allies has....

    @Bogeyfox said:
    Snares have to be upgraded or it is a vet ability for allies (except for the !!recent" sapper upgrade).
    All axis snares are a default ability of the unit (and come along with the regular base upgrade...).

    Option for snares on their AT infantry.
    All Axis snares are on units with no AT.

    @Bogeyfox said:

    If you say that both are balanced now - which I don't. So implying I have to say axis-at needs a buff is quite funny (it's a trick....)... Ok BUFF axis AT weapons to 200 pen! It'll be cool.... Cause it has no effect except for some heavy tanks but they have enough HPs so .... But Allies get all upgrades for free too and at weapons come out of the thin air too...

    No. Stick to facts pls.

  • #50
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited March 2019
    I like to add pfaust is worse snare today because of how long animations it need and how slower grens move.

    Between the long time to hit, Allies tanks will escape further from chase or faust model get killed and animation is restart or worse a bug where faust is 'fired' but got no effect as tanks move behind an object. This bug loses you ammo for nothing....
  • #51
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    > @mrgame2 said:
    > I like to add pfaust is worse snare today because of how long animations it need and how slower grens move.
    >
    > Between the long time to hit, Allies tanks will escape further from chase or faust model get killed and animation is restart or worse a bug where faust is 'fired' but got no effect as tanks move behind an object. This bug loses you ammo for nothing....

    So from my own research this seems to be because the Faust is a direct fire weapon where other snares are grenade style. This is why the Faust can target buildings and caches, but also why if there is a shot blocker in the way they don't fire- they need a clear line up to impact where grenade types by design can ignore terrain and such (being thrown or lobbed) so once they have their target they proceed to them.

    Could try making the fausts a skill shot maybe with more damage but people would hate that
  • #52
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > @mrgame2 said:
    > I like to add pfaust is worse snare today because of how long animations it need and how slower grens move.
    >
    > Between the long time to hit, Allies tanks will escape further from chase or faust model get killed and animation is restart or worse a bug where faust is 'fired' but got no effect as tanks move behind an object. This bug loses you ammo for nothing....

    So from my own research this seems to be because the Faust is a direct fire weapon where other snares are grenade style. This is why the Faust can target buildings and caches, but also why if there is a shot blocker in the way they don't fire- they need a clear line up to impact where grenade types by design can ignore terrain and such (being thrown or lobbed) so once they have their target they proceed to them.

    Could try making the fausts a skill shot maybe with more damage but people would hate that

    Skill shot snares that aren't on mainline infantry would be nice - lord only knows you might get some light vehicle play outside of "vehicles that squad wipe within 10 seconds" if you aren't risking an engine snare from literally every direction.

Sign In or Register to comment.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

  • © SEGA. SEGA, the SEGA logo, Relic Entertainment, the Relic Entertainment logo, Company of Heroes and the Company of Heroes logo are either trademarks or registered trademarks of SEGA Holdings Co., Ltd. or its affiliates. All rights reserved. SEGA is registered in the US Patent and Trademark Office. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.

DeutschEnglishEspañolFrançaisItalianoРусский