I think sherman kinds needs some buffs
GoforGian…
Posts: 6
I know, historical, sherman tanks armor was more harder than panzer 4, but sherman's armor 160/80 is not match for PZ4's 180/90.
of course, that panzer 4's 180/90 armor is acceptable but 234/90 is too much gap with historical sherman.
the Ideal, Panzer 4's side skirt bonus deleted is Ideal (with skirt at first with 180/90 armor and 640HP)
but If Pz4's skirt bonus not deleted. then all shermans(75,76,caliope) frontal armor buffed to 200/100 (Easy 8 : 250/120, Dozer : 250/100) is right for ordinary rate.
and sherman HE shells penetration is not match I think.
HE shells were made for crush bunkers and buildings, but 25 penetration cannot crush them clearly. So I suggest Sherman 75mm HE shells pen buffed to 45/45/45 and sherman 105mm pen buffed to 90/90/90 (Brumbar is 140/120/100, same as AP of sherman tanks)
and sherman 75mm and 105mm's fire rate could be slightly Improved.
I think 5.6~6.0 seconds 75mm reload time to 5.2~5.7 and 6.6~7.3 105mm to 6.3~6.9 seconds.
how do you think about it?
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What i see in Sherman is lack of fire rate even at max vet vs Max vet Panzer 4.
Penetration wise it cant pen frontal armor of Panzer 4 specially at Vet 2 armor skirts.
Movement and rotation speed still loose vs panzer 4.
Armor wise not a competition Sherman never bounces shots..
Accuracy also is a main problem with Sherman.
While Panzer 4 just cost 10 more fuel.
Their performance vs vehicle is very far apart.
While vs infantry Panzer4 still above Sherman without the drawback of switching rounds.
Having the wrong rounds means death, switching rounds is really slow.
Veterancy is where Sherman looses a lot. Sherman vet is really weak right now.
Sherman is way better for its cost and Performance in comparison to the Wehrmacht Panzer IV tank. DPS, Manoeuvrability, Accuracy (especially on the move since it has bonus accuracy while moving, the only medium tank I think, while others suffers twice as much), Smoke without requirement of General. HE shells which are better than Panzer IV (OH & OKW) against infantry especially the Machine Gun and your own crew can heal the tank. While the axis mostly OH suffers from repairing vehicles in general when they have to focus more on combat engagements.
Panzer IV (OH) vs Sherman (USF) = Sherman wins
Panzer IV J (OKW) vs Sherman = OKW wins
Sherman is a very cost effective tank that can especially escape engagements rather efficiently without the requirement of a general when axis on the other hand require it in order to have smoke. I am not too sure about the Veterancy cuz we cant tell for sure whether they work or not but overall, Sherman can be better in general for both cost and performance.
If you talk about the Panzer IV J for OKW, it is better in Armour and that is about it (Can Vet 5) and costs more.
It loose to both Panzer 4 it cannot penetrate at all. Penetration is the main problem with Sherman.
-Sherman is 110fuel, Panzer is 120fuel
-Sherman has smoke, Panzer has Blitz
-Best thing of Panzer is it can shoot both tank and infantry without the need to change round make Panzer spamable
-Best thing about Sherman is its vet 1 Radionet, get slightly faster reload when stay near to another tank. Yes another tank, not just another vet1 Sherman, but any tank. It can stack up to 3 times by staying near to other 3 tanks. Send a vet1 Sherman of yours goes with your teammate T34 blob and it works like crazy - because it stack with your teammate tanks
Sherman is just need more skill to make it work better than Pz4
You totally forgot the vet 2 makes it harder to penetrate.
Vet is the main issue coz panzer 4 vet is really good vs sherman.
Non vet Osther Panzer 4 is just ok but wait till it vet up it can even shrug off M36 shells.
I believe if a single Sherman vet1 when have Radionet level3 and flank behind a Panther to get the 1st shot which high rate to pen Panther every round, I can assure that Sherman can take down a non-vet Panther.
Sherman is worse than Pz4 by default, but with skill Sherman can surpass Pz4.
I just find out Radionet doesnt apply to every tanks to boost on Sherman, which is weird:
-Stuart, M8 Carrier, Luch dont work / but T70, Valentine work
-SU76, SU85, StugG doesnt work / but Jadpanzer, Wolverine, Jackson work
-StugE, Brumbar dont work / but Calliope, Sturmtiger work
-Ostwind doesnt work / but Centaur works
-ISU152 doesnt work / but Jadtiger, Elephant work
What is this logic?
Well its an old bug i found last Commander Revamp patch. Tested it last year did not bother reporting it coz i was lazy.
But good thing you find it, i totally forgot about it too.
Sherman is meant to be more AI than AT in all honesty. Much better on urban maps. If we give Sherman buff especially vs tanks then it will make it a very versatile vehicle.
Instead of buffing the sherman they could consider a price reduction?
This would be good rather than buffing.
Or slightly increase penetration.
I played last time where 4 shots did not penetrate Panzer4 it died just a minute or 2 after making it.
To me all Medium price is as good as it is.
90fuel - T34 doesnt have anything except suicide ram
90fuel - Stug has range, AT purpose, cant do anything to infantry, and no turret
110fuel - Sherman has weak AP round and HE round, MG upgrade, turret, smoke
The old Jackson would take 18sec - fire 4shells - 200dmg to kill a Pz4, today it take 13sec - fire 4shells - 160dmg and still able to take down a Pz4. Both faster reload, higher pen and higher Hp allow Jackson to dash in for the kill. For me thats the reason Pz4 price goes down.
I think these should fix to make Pz4 price goes higher to fit with its price:
Jackson all stat still the same, Hp goes back to 480 makes them unable to rush in to kill, lower price back to 125fuel.
That's what I was thinking. Make it the same cost as a t34. US uses at guns and TD for anti tank. Regular shermans are for anti infantry.
Also the sherman has better mobility and fires more accurate on the move.
Most importantly the sherman can self heal.
The p4 is more durable.
Seems like a good trade off
Ain't nothing wrong with the balance of the sherman. Buff it more and suddenly the p4 sucks, buff that and now the cromwell sucks, then you gotta nerf the t34 because it hadn't been touched in a while.... Relic doesn't do small adjustments (unless it's 1cp 250mp sprinting infantry that can cloak, ignore cover and snipe models, then it's time to take baby steps) for everything else it's sledgehammer it out of existence and fuck up as much as you can with the AOE while you do it.
Sherman as anti infantry but lacking anti tank is fine but good luck getting vet from infantry kills. Where as I can get vet 3 m8 all day 4-6k damage infantry on top of some vehical damage here and there. My personal opinion Is to skip Sherman use the m8 right now since both need tons of support anyway.
Op you need to l2p. Base usf Sherman is very good and comparable to wehr p4. Look at the stats above. Their AT are about same. Sure p4 gain armor in vet2, but sherman gain super speed.
Sherman crazy good moving accuracy and it being slightly cheaper than p4 makes it a good spot. Sherman upgrade mg is 50cal and other mg are better than p4. Sherman is clearly better AI and equal AT.
I will regress from my statement on Sherman ability to take on tanks. as of this in game test anyway you can see Sherman can take on the pz4. although He vs inf is also comparable to pz4 standard shot just ever slightly more consistent is all.
still I think m8 better fits the anti infantry role per cost and utility.
I put this pic before. Panzer dominate Sherman front to front. And Panzer round does both job without requiring changing round like Sherman.
But with Vet1, when radio net active. We can see in the pic Sherman vet1 with Radio net level2 (Su76 doesnt apply) dominates Pz vet3.
Sherman need more skill to make it work.
In late game, vetted Sherman speed and he ap round's are more useful to disrupt axis infantry and support weapons. While p4 armour skirts have been negated much after the td buff, a jackson is more than able to lock out vetted p4
> I will regress from my statement on Sherman ability to take on tanks. as of this in game test anyway you can see Sherman can take on the pz4. although He vs inf is also comparable to pz4 standard shot just ever slightly more consistent is all.
If memory serves sherman HE has an AOE of 4 while the p4 has an AOE of 2.5. Flat out the HE damages a wider area. I don't recall the profile though.
some in game use of the Sherman to critique.
rather than using cheat mod.
the Sherman does in fact hold its own.
I think this better shows the difficulties with Sherman anti infantry main role.
watch player Destro micro the Shemans into fireing range vs infantry.
at the end a single m20 still does better in overall efficiency with not much worse inf damage.