I think sherman kinds needs some buffs

#1
10 months ago

I know, historical, sherman tanks armor was more harder than panzer 4, but sherman's armor 160/80 is not match for PZ4's 180/90.
of course, that panzer 4's 180/90 armor is acceptable but 234/90 is too much gap with historical sherman.
the Ideal, Panzer 4's side skirt bonus deleted is Ideal (with skirt at first with 180/90 armor and 640HP)
but If Pz4's skirt bonus not deleted. then all shermans(75,76,caliope) frontal armor buffed to 200/100 (Easy 8 : 250/120, Dozer : 250/100) is right for ordinary rate.

and sherman HE shells penetration is not match I think.
HE shells were made for crush bunkers and buildings, but 25 penetration cannot crush them clearly. So I suggest Sherman 75mm HE shells pen buffed to 45/45/45 and sherman 105mm pen buffed to 90/90/90 (Brumbar is 140/120/100, same as AP of sherman tanks)

and sherman 75mm and 105mm's fire rate could be slightly Improved.
I think 5.6~6.0 seconds 75mm reload time to 5.2~5.7 and 6.6~7.3 105mm to 6.3~6.9 seconds.
how do you think about it?

Comments

  • #2
    10 months ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    What i see in Sherman is lack of fire rate even at max vet vs Max vet Panzer 4.
    Penetration wise it cant pen frontal armor of Panzer 4 specially at Vet 2 armor skirts.
    Movement and rotation speed still loose vs panzer 4.
    Armor wise not a competition Sherman never bounces shots..
    Accuracy also is a main problem with Sherman.
    While Panzer 4 just cost 10 more fuel.

    Their performance vs vehicle is very far apart.
    While vs infantry Panzer4 still above Sherman without the drawback of switching rounds.
    Having the wrong rounds means death, switching rounds is really slow.
    Veterancy is where Sherman looses a lot. Sherman vet is really weak right now.

  • #3
    10 months ago

    Sherman is way better for its cost and Performance in comparison to the Wehrmacht Panzer IV tank. DPS, Manoeuvrability, Accuracy (especially on the move since it has bonus accuracy while moving, the only medium tank I think, while others suffers twice as much), Smoke without requirement of General. HE shells which are better than Panzer IV (OH & OKW) against infantry especially the Machine Gun and your own crew can heal the tank. While the axis mostly OH suffers from repairing vehicles in general when they have to focus more on combat engagements.

    Panzer IV (OH) vs Sherman (USF) = Sherman wins
    Panzer IV J (OKW) vs Sherman = OKW wins

    Sherman is a very cost effective tank that can especially escape engagements rather efficiently without the requirement of a general when axis on the other hand require it in order to have smoke. I am not too sure about the Veterancy cuz we cant tell for sure whether they work or not but overall, Sherman can be better in general for both cost and performance.
    If you talk about the Panzer IV J for OKW, it is better in Armour and that is about it (Can Vet 5) and costs more. ;)

  • #4
    10 months ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    Panzer IV (OH) vs Sherman (USF) = Sherman wins
    Panzer IV J (OKW) vs Sherman = OKW wins

    It loose to both Panzer 4 it cannot penetrate at all. Penetration is the main problem with Sherman.

  • #5
    10 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 658
    edited February 7

    -Sherman is 110fuel, Panzer is 120fuel
    -Sherman has smoke, Panzer has Blitz
    -Best thing of Panzer is it can shoot both tank and infantry without the need to change round make Panzer spamable
    -Best thing about Sherman is its vet 1 Radionet, get slightly faster reload when stay near to another tank. Yes another tank, not just another vet1 Sherman, but any tank. It can stack up to 3 times by staying near to other 3 tanks. Send a vet1 Sherman of yours goes with your teammate T34 blob and it works like crazy - because it stack with your teammate tanks

    Sherman is just need more skill to make it work better than Pz4

  • #6
    10 months ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    @C3Tooth said:
    -Sherman is 110fuel, Panzer is 120fuel
    -Sherman has smoke, Panzer has Blitz
    -Best thing of Panzer is it can shoot both tank and infantry without the need to change round make Panzer spamable
    -Best thing about Sherman is its vet 1 Radionet, get slightly faster reload when stay near to another tank. Yes another tank, not just another vet1 Sherman, but any tank. It can stack up to 3 times by staying near to other 3 tanks. Send a vet1 Sherman of yours goes with your teammate T34 blob and it works like crazy - because it stack with your teammate tanks

    Sherman is just need more skill to make it work better than Pz4

    You totally forgot the vet 2 makes it harder to penetrate.
    Vet is the main issue coz panzer 4 vet is really good vs sherman.
    Non vet Osther Panzer 4 is just ok but wait till it vet up it can even shrug off M36 shells.

  • #7
    10 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 658
    In the last image, its Sherman vet1 (with radio net of level2, SU76 doesnt boost Raridonet skill on Sherman) vs Okw Pz vet3, and Sherman still slightly win.

    I believe if a single Sherman vet1 when have Radionet level3 and flank behind a Panther to get the 1st shot which high rate to pen Panther every round, I can assure that Sherman can take down a non-vet Panther.

    Sherman is worse than Pz4 by default, but with skill Sherman can surpass Pz4.

    I just find out Radionet doesnt apply to every tanks to boost on Sherman, which is weird:
    -Stuart, M8 Carrier, Luch dont work / but T70, Valentine work
    -SU76, SU85, StugG doesnt work / but Jadpanzer, Wolverine, Jackson work
    -StugE, Brumbar dont work / but Calliope, Sturmtiger work
    -Ostwind doesnt work / but Centaur works
    -ISU152 doesnt work / but Jadtiger, Elephant work
    What is this logic?
  • #8
    10 months ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    Well its an old bug i found last Commander Revamp patch. Tested it last year did not bother reporting it coz i was lazy.
    But good thing you find it, i totally forgot about it too.

  • #9
    10 months ago
    VonIvanVonIvan Posts: 20

    Sherman is meant to be more AI than AT in all honesty. Much better on urban maps. If we give Sherman buff especially vs tanks then it will make it a very versatile vehicle.

  • #10
    10 months ago
    QuesocitoQuesocito Posts: 128

    Instead of buffing the sherman they could consider a price reduction?

  • #11
    10 months ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    @Quesocito said:
    Instead of buffing the sherman they could consider a price reduction?

    This would be good rather than buffing.
    Or slightly increase penetration.

    I played last time where 4 shots did not penetrate Panzer4 it died just a minute or 2 after making it.

  • #12
    10 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 658

    To me all Medium price is as good as it is.
    90fuel - T34 doesnt have anything except suicide ram
    90fuel - Stug has range, AT purpose, cant do anything to infantry, and no turret
    110fuel - Sherman has weak AP round and HE round, MG upgrade, turret, smoke

    The old Jackson would take 18sec - fire 4shells - 200dmg to kill a Pz4, today it take 13sec - fire 4shells - 160dmg and still able to take down a Pz4. Both faster reload, higher pen and higher Hp allow Jackson to dash in for the kill. For me thats the reason Pz4 price goes down.

    I think these should fix to make Pz4 price goes higher to fit with its price:
    Jackson all stat still the same, Hp goes back to 480 makes them unable to rush in to kill, lower price back to 125fuel.

  • #13
    10 months ago

    @Quesocito said:
    Instead of buffing the sherman they could consider a price reduction?

    That's what I was thinking. Make it the same cost as a t34. US uses at guns and TD for anti tank. Regular shermans are for anti infantry.

  • #14
    9 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 364
    Sherman really is not worth it as an anti infantry unit neither is the 105 for that matter. M8 Scott is better then both can still damage light vehicals and can stay at range from shrecks makeing it much more survivable and can hit emplacements or anti tank guns using its ability. The other two fail to fill anti emplacement anti infintry roles respectively. For instance shrecks will gladly run up to a 105 even with current buff, poor tracking and slow time to target do to how it lobs shells and lacks range combined with low armor and does not fire from behinde cover like m8 Scott's advantage of doing haveing instead to attack ground. Bazooka squads full retreat upon seeing a brumbar, shells both track well and have low travel time combine that with heavy front armor and pray your 57mm stays alive due to no pen even with hvap shells active still receiving bounces makeing brumbar excellent anti garrisons and infintry being able to open up a hole in the line great as is no need for changes. Just that the usf lacks in those roles. I saw something about Jackson price reduction with hp reduction but as I recall doing this would bring back the problem of them getting 1 shot from stuka bombs killing two or three at a time in some cases among other things like reacting to shrecks barely being able to escape kind of like panther always seems to do even when pushed in to far to catch a rifle grenade on retreat. Panthers do some amazing things for having almost 1000hp so I dont think it is to much to ask that a Jackson can easily kill a pz4 especially since you cannot simply upgrade a Sherman Into other variants to adjust to the battlefield but Instead need commanders to make up for the lack of stock unit choices especially that of artillery where as of now priest is the only sane choice due to calliope lack luster performance and ungodly cooldown time. To finish I will say usf has had some welcome changes especially in the tech tier and overall the 4v4 scene has been more balanced as of late.
  • #15
    9 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    Sherman's AP shells are nearly as good as the p4s for anti infantry and superior in penetration (140/120/100 if my memory serves me proper) the HE shells are complete gravy. If you know there is no armour where you are operating it allows the sherman to really kick it up a notch.

    Also the sherman has better mobility and fires more accurate on the move.

    Most importantly the sherman can self heal.

    The p4 is more durable.

    Seems like a good trade off
  • #16
    9 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 364
    Ya the Sherman has some good qualities and yes can self heal but your not going to produce non combat rear echelons either to repair which is a big downfall on some of the commander tanks that had the option removed with no repair ability to make up the difference. As far as the Sherman beating out a panzer4 no good luck with that unless you get the jump on them from side to rear and can keep to the side or rear which is a continual trend throughout the match minus the stuart best light tank counter on par with British counterpart. I would be fine with it except Sherman comes onto the field on the same time frame with little time to utilize he shells before shrecks tank and at are all out waiting severely limiting combat hence m8 does better with support utilizing range. Timeing always way off since they jumped majors price from 90 fuel to 120 fuel.
  • #17
    9 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    Sherman and P4 are actually almost equal in their chances to win a front on, the sherman however can chase without halving its chance to hit in the first place.

    Ain't nothing wrong with the balance of the sherman. Buff it more and suddenly the p4 sucks, buff that and now the cromwell sucks, then you gotta nerf the t34 because it hadn't been touched in a while.... Relic doesn't do small adjustments (unless it's 1cp 250mp sprinting infantry that can cloak, ignore cover and snipe models, then it's time to take baby steps) for everything else it's sledgehammer it out of existence and fuck up as much as you can with the AOE while you do it.
  • #18
    9 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 364
    edited March 13
    Idk about westmarch but I have tested okw pz4 vs Sherman front on Sherman never pens pz4 but the 76mm version is on equal par. I thought pz4 was standardized as the same unit between the two axis factions but I could be wrong.

    Sherman as anti infantry but lacking anti tank is fine but good luck getting vet from infantry kills. Where as I can get vet 3 m8 all day 4-6k damage infantry on top of some vehical damage here and there. My personal opinion Is to skip Sherman use the m8 right now since both need tons of support anyway.
  • #19
    9 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    https://coh2db.com/stats/#29

    Op you need to l2p. Base usf Sherman is very good and comparable to wehr p4. Look at the stats above. Their AT are about same. Sure p4 gain armor in vet2, but sherman gain super speed.

    Sherman crazy good moving accuracy and it being slightly cheaper than p4 makes it a good spot. Sherman upgrade mg is 50cal and other mg are better than p4. Sherman is clearly better AI and equal AT.
  • #20
    9 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 364

    I will regress from my statement on Sherman ability to take on tanks. as of this in game test anyway you can see Sherman can take on the pz4. although He vs inf is also comparable to pz4 standard shot just ever slightly more consistent is all.

  • #21
    9 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 364

    still I think m8 better fits the anti infantry role per cost and utility.

  • #22
    9 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 658


    I put this pic before. Panzer dominate Sherman front to front. And Panzer round does both job without requiring changing round like Sherman.

    But with Vet1, when radio net active. We can see in the pic Sherman vet1 with Radio net level2 (Su76 doesnt apply) dominates Pz vet3.
    Sherman need more skill to make it work.

  • #23
    9 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited March 13
    I don't see how p4 dominate shreman front to front....look at the stats, they are a wash, in fact p4 needs player skills to stop shoot micro to make up for 15% weaker move accuracy, and slower turret.

    In late game, vetted Sherman speed and he ap round's are more useful to disrupt axis infantry and support weapons. While p4 armour skirts have been negated much after the td buff, a jackson is more than able to lock out vetted p4
  • #24
    9 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    > @38Lightning said:
    > I will regress from my statement on Sherman ability to take on tanks. as of this in game test anyway you can see Sherman can take on the pz4. although He vs inf is also comparable to pz4 standard shot just ever slightly more consistent is all.

    If memory serves sherman HE has an AOE of 4 while the p4 has an AOE of 2.5. Flat out the HE damages a wider area. I don't recall the profile though.
  • #25
    9 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 364

    some in game use of the Sherman to critique.
    rather than using cheat mod.
    the Sherman does in fact hold its own.

  • #26
    9 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 364

    I think this better shows the difficulties with Sherman anti infantry main role.
    watch player Destro micro the Shemans into fireing range vs infantry.
    at the end a single m20 still does better in overall efficiency with not much worse inf damage.

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