Allies tanks need a rear armour nerf or...

#1
9 months ago
mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
edited December 2018 in General Discussion

or give Axis tanks better on the move accuracy and rof. Axis tanks being mainly PIV and Panther only.

Posted this:

Relic patchers were so concerned with Wehr heavy armour but look at the stats today
https://www.coh2db.com/stats/#86

front/rear/hp

Panther
Vet0-260/90/960
Vet2-286/99/960

Brumbar
Vet0-240/105/800
Vet2-288/126/800

JadgPanzer
Vet0-230/80/640
Vet3-230/80/800

Elefant
400/110/1040

Tiger (Tiger has been nerfed to a slow grandaddy tank)
300/140/1040

Avre & Crocodile
290/180/1080

Churchill
240/180/1400

Comet
290/110/800 (target size is smaller, 90% of panther, 5% faster speed and turret, better AI spread. ie harder to hit, all rounder, non-doctrine)

IS2
375/140/1040

ISU
340/155/1040

KV1
270/165/800

KV2
300/180/1040

KV8
260/145/800

Pershing
300/110/800 (worse off than Comet, lol at USF player saving for Pershing when Brit get it non-doc)

For TD, Penetration/damage/reload
Jackson - 240/160/6.65
SU85 - 230/160/5.65
Firefly - 246/200/8.25
Panther - 240/160/6.65
StugG - 185/160/5.25
Elefant - 400/300/8.75
Tiger - 220/160/5.25
IS2 - 230/160/665
Jagdpanzer - 185/160/5 (lol aint hitting shit against Allies heavies)

With ATG performing the same for the 4 factions, it is no wonder Wehr players in 2v2 tourney hung onto the Elefant desparately.

Proof that Allies tanks are hardier and better late game now. Allies can camp in all day, with the snares and all. You cant even dive in with Panthers for rear armor hit.

Axis tanks can only compete at Vet2-3. Anything below they get wiped by Allies tanks and TD.

I still dont get the Brumbar double armor and range nerf. Wehr always get double nerfed.

«134

Comments

  • #2
    9 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    I wont be surprise to see 2v2 meta, of double brit, one with anvil and other hammer. Get a churchill and comet to push forward seeing Axis panther have trouble pentrating and bringing down churchill health.

  • #3
    9 months ago
    > @mrgame2 said:
    > You cant even dive in with Panthers for rear armor hit.

    You shouldn't be diving with Panthers, period. Build some p4s for a rush like that. Some of those rear armor values do need to be nerfed, but this comparison you did here has some pretty massive flaws.

    How many of those allied tanks can one person build in a match? Except for the Brits you listed all doctrinal units for the allies. Meanwhile Panther is stock to both Axis factions, Brum for Ost. Hell, OKWs p4 has 4 less armor than the Churchill.
  • #4
    9 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited December 2018

    Panther is stock but expensive and take up mp. One of each OP allied tanks is enough, if the reason to nerf Wehr armor is use before.

    P4 rush against those high armor tanks and with snare? How many P4 you can afford to build? You must be kidding.

    OKW P4 also has 100 less rear armor and 760 less Hp and 5 less pen chance. P4 aint touching Churchill.
    One Churchill is enough too disrupt Wehr play. lol.

    Fact. Allies heavies are too Op and need a relook. Patchers have forgotten the purpose of patching.

    OKW P4
    234/80/640
    115/160/5.75

    Churchill
    240/180/1400
    120/160/6.8

    Churchil popcap 16. Panther 18. lol
    Funny how an infantry support tank, is more than able to kill Panther these days. P4 dont stand a chance. Wehr/OKW is highly depend on Panther, yet Relic made a double nerf and called it best spot yet.

  • #5
    9 months ago
    If your 50 range panther is somehow in the 40 range of a slow ass infantry support tank I don't think it's game balance that's giving you problems...
  • #6
    9 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    Allies TD are in 55-60 range, sniping all Axis tanks.

    The reasons gave for the variety of Allies TD/ATG buff AND Axis armor nerf because Axis armor are OP.
    But look at the stats today. Things are flipped yet Relic kept quiet.

    Axis has to depend overly on Panther, no other tanks in Axis can do enough damage at out of sight range against Allies heavies. Elefant, Tiger, Jadgtiger are too expensive, slow and late.

    Yet a 40 range churchill can stroll towards and back outwards without care. When it is back by SU85, Jackson, Comet, Firefly, Pershing, tanks which are either faster smaller, or outrange Axis answer. Soviet can call in super armored heavies and same thing, no TD answer for Axis.

    This is proof of Allies late game OP, Allies is built to snipe the weak Axis armor. Top level 2v2 competition is conclusive stats for Relic that Allies are easier to rack VP and win rates.

    Is there even a reason why Soviet has 6 man zisgun now?

  • #7
    7 months ago
    jakejake Posts: 9

    @mrgame2 said:
    Allies TD are in 55-60 range, sniping all Axis tanks.

    The reasons gave for the variety of Allies TD/ATG buff AND Axis armor nerf because Axis armor are OP.
    But look at the stats today. Things are flipped yet Relic kept quiet.

    Axis has to depend overly on Panther, no other tanks in Axis can do enough damage at out of sight range against Allies heavies. Elefant, Tiger, Jadgtiger are too expensive, slow and late.

    Yet a 40 range churchill can stroll towards and back outwards without care. When it is back by SU85, Jackson, Comet, Firefly, Pershing, tanks which are either faster smaller, or outrange Axis answer. Soviet can call in super armored heavies and same thing, no TD answer for Axis.

    This is proof of Allies late game OP, Allies is built to snipe the weak Axis armor. Top level 2v2 competition is conclusive stats for Relic that Allies are easier to rack VP and win rates.

    Is there even a reason why Soviet has 6 man zisgun now?

    i agree with this tried to push at late game with panthers with kt and tiger ace and we didnt survie that cuz jackson gonna take 3 hits to bring down and they have 4 maybe so gl and you cant even win early game as okw cuz glorius vicker spamm out of the box
    and dear god the jacksons survivalibity that thing can take a 23KG jagd HEAT shoot from the rear and still drives away
    and if the enemy has is-2 and you only have 1 ace or 2 panther you still gonna bleed from that is-2

  • #8
    7 months ago
    The viker is way more flankable than Mg42, especially with number advantage of volk and firepower from stum. The second vicker always come later than the second volk.

    Panther can take up to 2 shoot of 7,7kg shell from the QF 17 pounder and still runway.

    Okw have jagdpanzer 4, a TD with 60 range, good pen, good damage and a also good front armour, too. Back your panther up with an jagdpanzer and you will have fair chance to deal with Churchill + firefly combo. It is combine arm, not spamming 1 unit and hope to win. Jackson alone cant do anything, it need sight so again, combined arm.

    With the capable of early push and control map of OKW and lock down point of Wher. Alies usually end up have to struggle to push back.
  • #9
    7 months ago
    ARMYguyARMYguy Posts: 824
    edited February 23

    Sadly , if you want to play a game that has properly balanced allied/axis armor, you need to play vcoh. The people balancing this game have a clear agenda and its really too bad, but it is what it is.

    To the above post, i shouldn't really have to explain why having to back up a panther with a jagdpanzer to have a chance vs tanks that have insane armor and easily kill both infantry and tanks is bad balance, but he probably wouldn't understand it anyways. ( Both the panther and jagd, mostly the panther, should be better at AT than they are. Neither tank can even touch infantry so the unkillable allied blobs putting out far more DPS than anything axis can put out will continue to dominate )

    This is the main reason why playing allies in the current meta is so easy. Every tank you make requires zero ability to think, cause they all destroy both tanks and men easily. With axis you have tanks that cost far too much for what they do, and are mostly specialized at that, so they can't do the same. Vcoh understood why this is terrible balance wise, and gave expensive tanks such as panthers the ability to kill everything, not just tanks. Also the heavy tanks cost far less, and were far better.

  • #10
    7 months ago
    DarjeelingMK7Darjeelin… Posts: 244
    edited February 24
    Man, the hold thing of "churchill can kill panther alone" is just nonsense. If the churchill can reliably pen panther's armour then the firefly dont havr to exit.
    You guy dont seem to understand how this game work. You said alies tanks doesn't require thinking but you are the one who not thinking all when spamming panther, lost and blame the game. You really have to play british force.

    Anyway, churchill gun have Penetration value of 110 while panther have front armour of 260 and become 286 at vet 2.
    Plus that with the fact of panther have 55 range compare to churchill's 45 and panther is two time faster than churchill.
    How on earth that you can lost a panther to a churchill ????
  • #11
    7 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    @DarjeelingMK7 said:
    Man, the hold thing of "churchill can kill panther alone" is just nonsense. If the churchill can reliably pen panther's armour then the firefly dont havr to exit.
    You guy dont seem to understand how this game work. You said alies tanks doesn't require thinking but you are the one who not thinking all when spamming panther, lost and blame the game. You really have to play british force.

    Anyway, churchill gun have Penetration value of 110 while panther have front armour of 260 and become 286 at vet 2.
    Plus that with the fact of panther have 55 range compare to churchill's 45 and panther is two time faster than churchill.
    How on earth that you can lost a panther to a churchill ????

    Panther cant lose against churchill of course not 1v1.
    However because of Panther reduced rear armor, churchill will always pen for 160 damage. Read armor means the second half of the tank, and not strictly rear. Since Panther needs to skirt around Churchill to reduce its massive HP. Its second half is exposed to damage. Further more Churchill have escaping smoke, even more harder to kill.

    Same with IS2, really too durable. Just watch this match, IS2 simply surviving to Vet3. It doesnt need to push, just skirt around harassing infantry and move in when Axis tanks are weaken.
    Truth is, Stug needs a pen buff, Jadgpanzer needs a pen buff, OR Allies heavy tanks need a major rear armor nerf.

  • #12
    7 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    Because of how Panther needs to move in, but its reduced rear amor means even cheap T34, Sherman, Cromwell will damage it from the sides.

    The same cannot be said for Allies TD, they do not need to move in because of their superior range. Their frontal armor more than stop P4. Stug cannot reach them. Stug have trouble pen Allies heavies. Churchill, IS2 can just walk in and fuck the Stug.

    So you have Panther with poor move accuracy, longer reload time, just easy target for Allies lock down sectors. Or IS2 that is more manoeuvrable than Tiger, that even Panther have trouble pen it.

    Simply put, Allies tanks can also last longer, gain more vet and get even harder to kill.

  • #13
    7 months ago
    Churchill is indeed hard to kill but it is supposed to be like so. It almost cant damage anything more than a Pz4. Basically, churchill cant do anything alone and need support, that meant more resources and micro effort put around it. Micro a churchill and a firefly is much more difficult than 2 panther.

    You said churchill can pen Panther side armour but the churchill cant flank panther with it' speed.

    In fact, churchill had been nefted long time ago, it hard to kill because it have extra hit point. It's armour can bounce incoming shot but can be pen reliable enough by AT gun. Set up 2 pak 40 and the churchill won't go any further.

    In the other hand, Panther can bounce shot from AT gun, too, a lot. It's front can event bounce firefly shoot. How about a neft for panther armour, or a pen buff for alies AT, TD ?

    About IS 2, it is doctrinal, OKW have a king tiger in stock, how about that ?
    Axis also have late game, doctrinal super heavy TD and pak 43 that shoot through everything. Not to mention axis late game artillery meta, still no reliable counter.

    The point is that axis have plenty of options to deal with a churchill.

    Alies already stat the game with difficulty, now you neft their late game, how can they play ?
  • #14
    7 months ago
    If you believe churchill or Is 2 are OP, why dont you try to use them yourself. Post a replay of you dominant with them, try to spam churchill and see what happen ?

    I used to thing axis tanks are op, until i try them out and find out that they have their own trong and weak points.
  • #15
    7 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited February 24

    Not just churchill, but all allies heavy tanks need to nerf rear armor. I provide the stats, i provide the replays, i provide the proof in 2v2 championship. Allies late games is OP. Once they camp down, vetted infantry, 6 man support weapon, Axis cant win.

    Only panther can reliable pen churchill or other allies heavies. What choices axis have late game?
    Look at the above replay, 2 panthers flank move + stuka air support, Allies still survive and replace with cheaper TD. They dont even need lay mines or use snares or get caught out, it is just too easy Allies TD late game camp + arty. Axis team had a strong start, had resources for awhile, and yet Alies use stronger Infantry to come back, and then camp down. Allies OP from start to end.

  • #16
    7 months ago
    DarjeelingMK7Darjeelin… Posts: 244
    edited February 25
    The stat say itself, churchill front armour is nearly same as panther and just 6 more than a PZ4 so stop talking about front armour of the churchill.

    For side armor, what is the point of neft it if you are too scare to flank event a churchill with your panther ? Panther can pen churchill from the front while churchill cant. Flanking is risky but reward in many way. In order to get the reward, you must take the risk and actuality put some effort in micro rather than select a bunch of panther + right click.

    Churchill can be pen reliably by pak 40, stug and jagdpanther, you see it bounced 1 or 2 shoot in some game doesn't mean it is immortal.

    Anyway, In your replay, 2 panther dont seem to try any flanking move, mostly they shoot from the front and Froxifox know how not to overextend his IS2 as well as avoid AT stafe zone, it is his skill. As i said, provide some replay of yourself using alies heavy tank and see that you can dominant with them or not.

    You keep repeating "what choice axis have late game?" but King tiger, jagd tiger, pak 43, Lefh 18 are always there. try to use the right tools for the job.
  • #17
    7 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822

    rear armour across the board is about half the front armour, if it has higher front armour it will have high(ish) rear armour. belive it or not but the 90 fuel stug isnt meant to be the counter to heavy armour, in the same way that the su76 and puma are not.

    i also like the whine of "is-2 rear armour too stunk" when, by the very stats you posted have them the same as the tigers rear armour, despite the general rule of it being about half the frontal armour...

    its a biased thread ignoring unit roles and specific traits unless it helps the narrative (tiger slow piece of crap but churchill too durable? what about the fact that the tiger gun can pen every allied unit except the soviet heavies with extreme reliability and the churchill will bounce half the time at least on axis armour starting at the p4 with skirts? its cannon is reliable only agaisnt units that are already not a threat against it. churchill is DESIGNED to be durable and not much else. get over it.

  • #18
    7 months ago
    I watched the replay against, with that planking of 2 panther, axis taken out a SU85, a firefly and a sexton, that is more than success. With a bit more micro, he will able to escape with at leat 1 panther, event 2 but he give up both, meanwhile the OKW teammate dont push with him.
  • #19
    7 months ago
    The second panther have blizt but he take the risk and stay a little longer for another shoot at the IS 2.

    Right before the panther's planking, you can see the IS 2 push up and be pen RELIABLY by the jagdpanzer and king tiger. The IS 2 retreat with haft of HP.
  • #20
    7 months ago
    Churchill front is 260, panther vet front is 286, bumbar vet is 288 => require churchi front neft. Logic ?
  • #21
    7 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 580

    Sorry this is out of current topic but image in a very late game where every player has ~300fuel.
    In a confrontation, Soviet lost two T34/85, OKW lost a King, do you know what happen in the next 30sec?

    Another King on the frontline, while Soviet has a half build T34.

    Timing in this game is crucial, not just armor.

  • #22
    7 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited February 25

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    rear armour across the board is about half the front armour, if it has higher front armour it will have high(ish) rear armour. belive it or not but the 90 fuel stug isnt meant to be the counter to heavy armour, in the same way that the su76 and puma are not.

    i also like the whine of "is-2 rear armour too stunk" when, by the very stats you posted have them the same as the tigers rear armour, despite the general rule of it being about half the frontal armour...

    its a biased thread ignoring unit roles and specific traits unless it helps the narrative (tiger slow piece of crap but churchill too durable? what about the fact that the tiger gun can pen every allied unit except the soviet heavies with extreme reliability and the churchill will bounce half the time at least on axis armour starting at the p4 with skirts? its cannon is reliable only agaisnt units that are already not a threat against it. churchill is DESIGNED to be durable and not much else. get over it.

    Lol you talk about biased and some made up half rear values. Then why are axis tank rear armor now nerfed to less than half value? Panther brumbar were supposed too armored, yet IS2 frontal armor more than twice its rear? Heck its most allies heavies that adhere to twice front value thing. So i guess you are right! Lol

    Btw pak40 does not reliably pen allies heavy. If you watch the game, allies superior arty simply hard countered ost weapon teams. It no surprise really, consistent with patchers goal of hard countering everything ost have. Hence we have now ost is the weakest faction.

  • #23
    7 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    @DarjeelingMK7 said:
    Churchill front is 260, panther vet front is 286, bumbar vet is 288 => require churchi front neft. Logic ?

    No. Rear armor nerf needed, all allies heavy need rear armor nerf if u read the title.

    Vet2 is not as easy btw.

  • #24
    7 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    @DarjeelingMK7 said:
    I watched the replay against, with that planking of 2 panther, axis taken out a SU85, a firefly and a sexton, that is more than success. With a bit more micro, he will able to escape with at leat 1 panther, event 2 but he give up both, meanwhile the OKW teammate dont push with him.

    By your logic, allies could have save the sexton if they micro better..

    That was a great flank move, caught them by surprise. While okw was slow to move his KT, heck KT is slowest af, but all allies TD already lock down the front.

    So ost threw in 2 vetted panthers, the most expensive TD, mp,fuel, pop, 200 ammo AT strate, came from allies side, yet he lost everything.

    Allies did not even need mines, snares, AA, or even reverse as fast out of the planes. Losing 1 su85, 1 firefly is cheaper than 2 panthers, sexton should have micro out.

    Simply put, sure tanks are less accurate moving, but it's the panthers that need to move a lot more, either flanking allies heavy or gtfo like the above game. Allies td can just sit back and snipe. Allies infanry can just sit back and hold down points.

    Thats the meta fact now. Allies are having things WAY too easy

  • #25
    7 months ago
    It is a 1v2 situation and you expect 2 panther to wipe out everything the other team have, i dont think so. The wher player must well aware of the risk and he take it.
    It is not just two firefly, there is event an IS 2 in the fight and it is 50% HP
  • #26
    7 months ago
    Anyway, what is the point of further neft in side armor of alies heavy when panther have already pen it reliable?
    The side armor of axis heavy tank is equal.
  • #27
    7 months ago
    If you are requiring churchill to always be pen by pz4 from the side, it wont happen, we dont do that here.
  • #28
    7 months ago
    And you keep talking like Axis late game super heavy TD and heavy AT gun doesn't exist, jagdtiger, elephant and Pak 43. Why dont you mention them at all ?
    Axis have cheap stug and jagdpanze to counter alies medium and super heavy TD for alies heavy tank. Yet you deni that fact.
  • #29
    7 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    Yes allies heavy needs to nerf their 2nd half armor so that other axis tanks have a better chance to do damages. Allies got their TD buff, no reason why allies heavy still remain highly armored, and a 1400 hp tank. Panther doesnt always pen churhill from max range.

    There is no side armor, its really first half and back half of a tank, and axis tanks being slower or shorter range, their second half armor are not equal. Hence you can see why panthers can get rekt moving in, their 2nd half armor is too soft, all med allies tank pen it, the same cant be said of churchill and the likes.
  • #30
    7 months ago
    But you never see churchill flanking anything, do you?
    How about the side of king tiger, jagd tiger, elephant, which are supposed to counter alies heavy but you refused to mention?
    The jagd tiger can bounce firefly shoot from the side, i saw it yesterday.
    Again, you keep talking like axis super heavy TD doesn't exist.

    I dont know what you mean by "fist haft" and "second haft" armor. Tank have their front armour, which is thickest and only in the front, all the rest are side, or rear armor. You can see when a tank get shoot anywhere rather than the front, the line "rear armour hit" pop up.

    Alies heavy tank remain their armor in order to act as a shield for TD, which is very vulnerable if enemy get close.
    When something like a panther flanking in, the churchill will have to use its side armor to protect the firefly. A good axis player, once flanking in, will focus in killing the firefly before thinking about the harmless churchill, if you trying to take on the churchill before the firefly, then you are making mistake and therefore, lost.
  • #31
    7 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    > @mrgame2 said:
    > @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > rear armour across the board is about half the front armour, if it has higher front armour it will have high(ish) rear armour. belive it or not but the 90 fuel stug isnt meant to be the counter to heavy armour, in the same way that the su76 and puma are not.
    >
    > i also like the whine of "is-2 rear armour too stunk" when, by the very stats you posted have them the same as the tigers rear armour, despite the general rule of it being about half the frontal armour...
    >
    > its a biased thread ignoring unit roles and specific traits unless it helps the narrative (tiger slow piece of crap but churchill too durable? what about the fact that the tiger gun can pen every allied unit except the soviet heavies with extreme reliability and the churchill will bounce half the time at least on axis armour starting at the p4 with skirts? its cannon is reliable only agaisnt units that are already not a threat against it. churchill is DESIGNED to be durable and not much else. get over it.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Lol you talk about biased and some made up half rear values. Then why are axis tank rear armor now nerfed to less than half value? Panther brumbar were supposed too armored, yet IS2 frontal armor more than twice its rear? Heck its most allies heavies that adhere to twice front value thing. So i guess you are right! Lol
    >
    > Btw pak40 does not reliably pen allies heavy. If you watch the game, allies superior arty simply hard countered ost weapon teams. It no surprise really, consistent with patchers goal of hard countering everything ost have. Hence we have now ost is the weakest faction.

    I didn't make up the relationship between front and read armour. Half of the p4s frontal armour (180) is 90, which is the same as its rear armour.
    T34/76: 160/80
    T34/85: 170/85
    T70: 70/35
    Stug 140/70

    I referenced the values you provided.
    Is-2 has 375 frontal armour, half that would be 187. It's currently 140 based on your values. That's snuffing it 47 points of armour based on the formula
    The tiger is 300 and it's rear is 140, half would be 150.thats 10 points difference. Tell me now, which is a greater reduction, 10 points or 47 points?

    Extremely armored units have lower than formula rear armour because it promotes flanking and allows for higher frontal armour to remain balanced.

    The churchill is designed solely to soak fire. It's whole existence revolves around that. If yuu are fearful of its only trait bring something that invalidates it like an elefant (xmcheaper than 2 panthers) or pak43, as both are guaranteed to pen. Or try to flank it


    @DarjeelingMK7 actually there is halves on tank armour. Due to engine limitations there is no side armour. The front armour value encompasses 50%of the vehicle, the rest counts as rear armour.
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