Wehrmacht needs Changes! Panzergrenadiers, Bugs and more

#1
10 months ago
Balanced_GamerBalanced_… Posts: 200
edited January 23 in General Discussion

There are some bugs from what I realised on my tests and things which requires certain changes.

Please do take the time to read this as you can see the effort I have placed into writing this discussion.

Greandiers Mg42 takes huge breaks from shooting, it should be more consistent as other factions. Do not know why it is a thing but it is there if you look closely. takes brakes sometimes 2-4 seconds between bursts (it should not be thing). Does not require a buff but a fix or adjustment.

Panzergreandiers,
How long has it been since Panzergrenadiers got a buff. It lacks the ability to perform at its current price. Sturmpiooners in comparison is 300, and has the ability to perform many things at once compared to a single bundle grenade. The fact that Panzergreandiers costs 340 and the fact it lacks the ability to engage head on against infantry due to being a too fragile unit makes it the least cost effective unit. I have done tests and Panzergreandiers overall are ineffective against infantry, but good against vehicles which in addition costs extra 100 munitions in order to make it effective thus making Pak40 a more reasonable cost effective option. Due to recent changes made in the game with mortar, sniper and vehicles currently demoted the OH overall effectiveness.

This game is fantastic and the most fun RTS game in my opinion but the fact that there is some things that are unbalanced, I believe it requires a few changes. Reasons why...
1. Drop like flies, has worse received accuracy than Grenadiers & Piooners
2. Cost and Effectiveness do not match, should decrease price around 300
3. Lacks abilities for its price, should maybe have a repair kit or tactical advancement to make more interesting and effective option or something else
4. Reload animation takes longer than Shock Troops and Sturmpiooner (creating DPS gap) which is wierd considering its price and its purpose.

Stug, yes it has been nerfed and I disagree with the change as it is always now flanked due to it not being a threat as it used to be. T34 was meant to flank by surprise and now it can just go head against it like as if it were nothing because of the fact it has lower health than T34 and has a slow firerate. It is not even good against Infantry and in my opinion, useless.

I believe Ostheer requires some changes and buffs especially to squad size. Why not have by default like what the British Faction has to upgrade from a 4 man squad to a 5 man squad to make it more durable without the need of a General. If changes are not to be made, at least tweak the price around 300 to make it a choice for a more diverse gameplay and a viable option.

Ostwinds, main gun currently sucks and appears to be worse than OKWs Ostwind which perform more consistently with its shots. Change that plz to the way OKW Ostwind performs. Who uses that anyway?

Squad size making it the lowest Squads HP faction in game, and the fact that the DPS does not make up to its lacking health. Should be more consistent in damage and accuracy.

OR

I suggest a "bolster squad package" like the British faction where you can upgrade the squad size to 5 men would simply make it a more flexible unit and prevent it from being killed from 1 grenade easily or from a tank shot.

Ostruppen should increase damage from 8 to 10. To match Panzerfusiliers K98 damage wise. After all Ostruppen are only good in cover, so it would not be a big deal having this change. If this seems too OP, then change price to 220 and resupply from 16 to 18 to come along with the change. The Damage should not be that low for a K98. It is not a necessary change but it would be a good one.

Aftermath of Patch Release.
Currently now after the Patch in accordance to the changes made with vehicles, mortar and sniper has totally decreased Wehrmachts overall survivability. Not that I disagree with the changes, but it has unfortunately decreased Wehrmacts overall performance. I believe these changes can improve OH state and its current condition. Should be decent against Infantry and not only against vehicles. It feels so much harder to play as they lack the units to perform the way they should against Infantry.

Lists of Units that are useless and under-performing in Wehrmacht.

  1. Panzergrenadiers. Expensive, has low performance, low health. Not worth it. Lack abilities, everything. Has highest received accuracy compared to all other Wehrmacht units. They die even the fastest. Do not take them
  2. SdKfz 251 Halftrack (it has good damage but it is too vulnerable, little health, low armour and overall too risky for a flame upgrade). I should not be too vulnerable to Small Arms Fire
  3. SdKfz 222 Scout Car (does not do enough damage against infantry), the main 20mm gun does not perform like other 20mm variants in the game. It under-performs by a huge margin
  4. Stun Ability for Pak40 and Stug. Does 80 damage and hardly stuns the enemy tank. Waste of ammo and has no real effect
  5. Stug. Manoeuvrability is terrible and slow. Fire rate slow, Health low. Useless both against Infantry and tanks. I would rather have a T34 since it is better in all areas. Not worth the cost and performance
  6. Ostwind. Misses 2/3 shots most of the time, taking the opportunity away of doing the utmost damage. Out of all Anti Air Vehicles, this has the worst accuracy, DPS and consistency.
  7. Panzer IV. It is good but not that good, it is terrible. Costs 120 fuel and 350 manpower. It does not do as well as T34 against Infantry and it has worse statistics.
  8. Stormtroopers. Every since they go MP40, they perform terrible in comparison as to when they had STG44. The Tactical Advance had a purpose before but now it is pure suicide when using that ability. It misses and you just soak damage more than necessary.
  9. Mortar has same speed as any other mortar and that kills the purpose of using this mortar as it should be the fastest in game due to how low damage the mortar inflicts.
  10. Grenadier MG42 Upgrade, does not live up to expectation when it pauses and misses most of the time. G43 upgrade is more efficient, consistent and cost effective. Better take that instead.
  11. Snipers aim time takes too long, Expensive and risky, possibly not worth using against Soviets as they have 6 man squad that can soak up damage compared to a four man squad. Can be countered easily with m3a1 scout car with troops on top of it. Although you are supposed to have support with the sniper, the problem is most of the time your grenadiers would be retreating due to how much damage it took causing the sniper to be vulnerable.

Evidence for Survivability and difficulties to counter the enemy from Pro Player VonIvan playing as Wehrmacht

Starts 01:40:40 Ends around 02:09:25

His Reasons
He gives his reasons why he cant counter and the difficulties as playing Wehrmacht. He only, and relies mostly upon Grenadiers during this gameplay since it is the best option to go for. Due to lack of Units to counter due to the lacking performance. You will see why!

Got to around 02:09:30

Most of his streams as Axis, he plays OKW since it has units that are more consistent and more durable. You can see in the video, that he retreats his units most of the time and some of them just do not last long. They lack firepower, consistency and durability. Check for Grenadier MG42 pauses. :o

In Conclusion, I believe that prices tagged on certain units should live up to their expectations and should not be considered or rendered as useless. Units that are Hardly used such as those mentioned above is due to the lack of performance and expectations. I believe that the all base units especially in other factions should live up to it also and I feel these changes (mostly Pzgrens and Ostwind since are the leaset used) are the utmost necessary to make it a more balanced and smoother, diverse gameplay for the Ostheer without only relying upon Grenadiers. To make and have more choices for a more diverse Gameplay.

Also, Wehrmacht lacks many things in many ways. It lacks Firepower and lacks durability. I do not know why on earth they are garbage only until you get Panthers (which is only useful against tanks and having great armour) but that is only when until if you survive end game. Every time in the beginning of the game when playing OH, once your squad lost 2 infantry often the best option is to retreat because if you retreat with one guy left, there is high chance you will lose the squad. This the faction that I believe retreats the most, Early and Mid Game. I usually play OKW since they actually work. No problems, just fine challenging but not as exhausting as playing Wehrmacht when you do not have many choices to pick from. They should add StugE it is the only anti infantry vehicle that actually works and is durable, for 2nd tier base or 2nd Battle Phase. Only available to only two Generals.

After all the soviets have 6 man squads and others with 4/ mostly 5 man squads.

A bit off topic. I do not believe Wehrmacht to be the only faction that needs fixes or adjustments. It just lacks the capacity to engage Infantry Combat which requires certain buffs and adjustments. Allied Factions I believe for Anti-Tank capabilities to be improved especially among USF and British Forces as they lack the ability to counter Medium/Strong Tanks. Soviets are perfectly versatile in Both Anti- Infantry and Tank. Soviets do not need that much change, maybe something to deal with (nerf some received accuracy since they are six man squad for Shock Troops ) Shocks Troops and Guard Rifles Blobs mostly Guard Rifles since their PTRD does 27 damage on an Infantry unit which is crazy and surprisingly accurate. Shreds both vehicles and infantry.

Tell me what you guys think? Thank you for your time :D

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Comments

  • #2
    9 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    I agree. See my post history where i listed plenty of examples Wehr has been patched out to hell. Alllies units are either having hard counters to Wehr, or having higher performance per cost. While Wehr have general counter.

    Wehr the 'reference' faction, sure, meaning it has the worst unit composition out now

    Cite one thing about the p.faust, allies player complain about its homing capability, but did we forget it has the slowest fire time, if the soldier was killed before firing, the animation gets transferred to the next unit and restart all over! Grens also move slower. This was acceptable, until allies infantry got buffed with INSTANT tank snares! So now, you have allies tanks, generally faster, able to move further away from AT before getting snared, while Wehr tanks gets faster snared inside the allies AT zone, and since allies TD also now have range and penetration advantage, you see the results why i call wehr weakest armour now.

    Stug definitely needs a buff back. You see my topic listing allies armour have higher armor and hp values now. Wehr is forced to rely heavily on panther to damage those heavy tanks. However panther armour is so nerfed now, even a t34/cromwell supporting those heavy can seriously damage the expensive panther.

    Gren and Pgren definitely needs a RA buff, 4 man squad should be harder to hit, but they fall like toy soldiers until vet3, which is too long. And yes the LMG reload bug is another case where it was less noticeable before allies got their buff.

    And yes 222 armor car is poorer in dealing with weapon teams than usf armor car and t70. It needs some deterrence buff against stronger allies infantry.

    Not the last, but relic seriously need to look at usf mortar carriage, that thing is a longer range vet3 leig gun mounted ontop a stuart, totally unplayable in 2v2 and above.
  • #3
    9 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited February 2
    Wehr now is like the totally average kid, while allies factions are patched to hard counter wehr at every turn of a match, they are the cool kids with higher talents while only slightly under developed capabilities compare to average kid Wehr.

    I just watched tightrope recent 2v2 cast, and noticed Soviet call in arty does 3 bombing pass onto the okw hq, destroying it. Another thing to look into allies arty,call in or both. Wehr strength in locking down sector is hard countered with so many allies arty, zisgun that auto target with speed on bunkers, while its opposite for wehr have hard time displacing allies 6 man teams and/or brit emplacement.

    All three allies faction have uncounterable bombing runs. Stuka cas and dive bomb pales in comparison. Only recently the okw sector arty helps
  • #4
    9 months ago

    It is just ridiculous. Wehrmacht is the only faction to have every single troop with 4 units.

    The way I see it, the only way Wehrmacht now stands a chance against any good allied player (infantry that stands out way better than ostheer by survivability and DPS is by using the "German Infantry Doctrine", it is seriously what Wehrmacht needs by default. Exclude Veteran Squads but instead have by Default "Bolster Infantry Squads" like the British does. It would be fair and square since Wehrmacht lacks both infantry and vehicle capabilities (better in terms of AT, but the worst faction at AI). There are hardly nay proper counters due to the fact that many units available underpeform.

    "Comparison"

    If you compare the Brits to Wehr. The Brits are 2 to 3 times better in every way. Core infantry for Brits (coolest in the game in my opinion) although costs 280 manpower, for its price it is worth it since it is really great behind cover, has an increase in rate of fire and increase in accuracy, best core infantry in game, does equivalent damage as Grenadiers but performs way better, deadlier firepower but lacks AT. Overall the Brit Unit stand outs way more than Grenadiers especially when it has AT.

    Abiltiy to upgrade to a 5 man squad costs "150 manpower and 35 fuel" worth the investment, I think by default also for the Wehrmacht is something which they totally without the requirement of a general because it lacks completely infantry capabilities and durability. Squad wipes are more likely to happen to Wehr because 4 man against many allied vehicles that has proper anti infantry capabilities which Wehrmacht totally lacks.

    Panther is to some degree useless and the fact that it is the tank you MUST have in order to combat enemy tank which are heavier such as Churchill heavy tank (can get more than one) is a best both against infantry and vehicles having also the best health in game. Comet a counterpart of Panther which has more supportive abilities, great against infantry which Panther totally lacks. Plus the comet ahs a grenade for 20 ammo to deal with a anti/tank gun quickly in order to finish them off.

    In order to get something that goes up against both vehicles and infantry would be the PanzerIV but when a Churchill comes, it is utterly useless. PanzerIV sucks for its price "350 manpower and 120 fuel", it is just not as good as T34 or Sherman. I usually dont use "Support Armour Corps" because I know they are all useless and not worth their price unless i have no other choice, PanzerIV is really the only acceptable choice. Stug and Ostwind sucks in performane for their costs since they were all nerfed. Usually I just skip it for the "Heavy Panzer Korps" because it is real deal and the only thing that I can use to counter Tanks and possibly infantry as Wehrmacht.

    Wehrmacht is the worst faction in game because they are usually bad in the beginning and the long run.

    List of Units that Underperform

    1. Mortar.: It is simply the worst mortar (especially USF motar )in game because it has the same fire-rate as any other but it lacks damage and accuracy compared to any mortar in game. Simply not worth using, takes only 3 guys to kill before it is taken. Takes too long to time to aim, to deploy, to rotate, to reload, it is simply ridiculous for it being the so called light motar.

    2. SdKfz 251 Halftrack. It is great with flamethrower, but considering the upgrade to be costy and risky due to the fact it does get any health boost which is what it need for something costs additionally 90 ammo.

    3. Panzergreandiers. Lacks durability, that is the only problem I have with them. They just die too easy. Lacks abilities for its price. Penals in comparison is better and has passive abilities. Panzergrenadier for its cost does not perform as it should. Should get the ability to upgrade "Support Package" which makes it unique unit worth purchasing. At its current state. It is a NO, NO. Not worst but underpeforms.

    4. Sniper. Shoots as fast the British Sniper but Russian is slower. Relic please look into this.

    5. STUG. Underpeforms for its price, only worth when it is Vet 2,3. Lacks rate of fire, health lower than PanzerIV and T34, manoeuvrability sucks.

    6. OSTWIND. Terrible, nobody uses it, it is evident, rate of fire, aim , scatter, reload, damage is simply just horrible.

    7. BRUMMBAR . Great but simply needs an aim fix against vehicles. It always seems to shoot in front of the vehicle, can not recall any other vehicle in game doing this. Fix that, because I believe it to capable against medium tanks and it should be able to do so.

    Give simply first a Bolster Squad as a first step towards improving Wehrmacht.

    PLZ fix Wehrmact

  • #5
    9 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 643

    When im in a 3v3 4v4 game, Im happier to see there are 3 Ost players than 3 Okw players. Because Ost is easier to fight.

    Sturm itself is better than Pion for a starting unit. Volk can soak damage and have better utility than Gren. Obersodaten can destroy Riflemen with a Bar and a M1919, they can sprint at vet5, they come to the battle field from PanzerHQ from the middle of the map not from the base; those thing PanzerGren can not do.

  • #6
    8 months ago

    I think Panzergrenadiers specifically should get a buff for its price.
    It should get "Support Package" as an option to make it more versatile like its counter Penal but in a different way, more interesting than it currently is. I think it would make it a lot more fun to use especially the abilities that come along with it. It is an Elite Wehrmacht Unit and should at least have access to one or two more abilities for its price and performance. We know how weak they can be at times!

  • #7
    8 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    Yep shock troop come about same time as pg, but they are more lethal and much more durable, very strong anti infantry and cheaper than pg! Wehr has zero close range infantry to decrew allies weapon team on flank.

    Pg has an expensive shrek upgrade but thats about it. Shrek needs lots of micro to properly hit med tanks thanks to its unable to fire on the move and reloading. Watch tightrope video showing how to baby sit Shrek. Besides shrek are mostly useless against late game allies armor.
  • #8
    8 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 643

    Shocktroop 6men 390mp
    Doc at 3command points
    utility: grenade, smoke
    Good at close range, super durable

    Panzergren 4men 340mp
    Non Doc at Tier2
    utility: Model24 grenade, 2x shreck
    Great at close range, average durable

    Sturmpion 4men 300mp
    Non Doc at Tier0
    utility: 1x shreck, mine sweeper, lay mine, repair, barbed wire, medit kit, scavenge, able to switch sweeper & gun
    Great at close range, good durable

    Compare Panzergren & Shock is like compare a Panther & a Tiger command
    Try to compare Panzergren & Sturmpion.


    Toughest non doc Soviet tank is T34, USF is Sherman, only UKF has Comet or Churchill
    Toughest non doc Ost tank is Panther, OKW is King

    A puma with a squad for sight & snare can kill T34 Sherman easily.

  • #9
    8 months ago
    I used pgren several time and yet they do fragile. But if you say wher dont have close range DPS to clear alies team weapons then you are so wrong, soviet 6 man team weapons can take a while but pgren do very well again 4 man vicker or M2 team and they also have blunder nade that specialize in take out weapon team.
    Both axis have stock close range DPS unit, and stock unit shouldn't beat doctrinal unit of same role.

    Still, make them 5 man with stg is impossible so if you want 5 man pgen i suggest 5 man but only 3 stg and 2 rifle, 2 pshreck upgrade will replace 2 rifle but make them move slower, like heavy royal engineer.
  • #10
    8 months ago

    @DarjeelingMK7 said:
    I used pgren several time and yet they do fragile. But if you say wher dont have close range DPS to clear alies team weapons then you are so wrong, soviet 6 man team weapons can take a while but pgren do very well again 4 man vicker or M2 team and they also have blunder nade that specialize in take out weapon team.
    Both axis have stock close range DPS unit, and stock unit shouldn't beat doctrinal unit of same role.

    Still, make them 5 man with stg is impossible so if you want 5 man pgen i suggest 5 man but only 3 stg and 2 rifle, 2 pshreck upgrade will replace 2 rifle but make them move slower, like heavy royal engineer.

    The idea is great, 3 stg and 2 k98 making it 5 guys which Wehrmacht needs. A unit that will become durable if this is considered which in my opinion should be. It would be more interesting if they could get in addition a g43 upgrade/package providing the 2k98 instead with g43, not until they have either base Escalated to Battle Phase 2 or 3, as an interesting option, to make G43 a bit more common only amongst Panzergrenadiers since they should more access to better weapons due to being an elite unit like Obersodalten which is more versatile (comes too late). Just to make it more durable and versatile which many Wehrmacht units lack except for Grenadiers (it just lacks survivability and some infantry firepower).

    Brits in comparison are counterparts to Wehrmacht in many similar ways, units mostly. They have "Bolster Sqaud Package" which increases survivability which is a real good upgrade. I think since Grenadiers are quite versatile themselves should be quite fine having them the way they currently are but having Panzergrenadiers instead as a 5 man squad would be compensated then for its the cost, would balance them entirely with new addition of increased survivability and its anti infantry issue capabilities which Wehrmacht lacks.

    I really do think that Panzergrenadiers deserves a buff for its price especially when they only have one utility, the "bundle grenade" which makes it very a lacking unit it terms of versatility compared to Penals (cheaper than Panzergreandiers, but still expensive, 300 manpower) which are better in many more situations especially 6 guys with semi-automatic weapons a passive ability for increase accuracy for each unit of its squad killed. Satchel charge with PTRS upgrade, makes them even more overall deadlier than Panzergrenadiers, in term AT (much more dangerous) and without upgrade alone can survive better in many situations against infantry units than Panzergrenadiers. Penals are very flexible in many situations compared to panzergreandiers where their only chance against Penals really is close range, maybe medium but it is more in favour of Penals semi-automatics 6 vs 4 guys.

    I think these will be good and necessary changes. Maybe some other different alternatives too just to make it more capable and more potent for its price.

  • #11
    8 months ago
    Historically, a panzer grenadier squad is organized around 2 Mg42, so a Mg42 upgrade will be very reference but at the same time take away the unit intended role is close range DPS so never mind.

    G43 for pgren has already in some doctrin, and in the case of 5 man squad with 3 stg, a G43 upgrade should replace 3 stg with 3 G43.

    Pgren is stock so we cant give them too much more than blunder nade.

    With 5 man as i suggested, the blunders can be replaced by a normal stick nade and some kind of sprint. Or, may be, we can allow them to reaper vehicles at a slower rate than pio, or quickly repair critical, but not restore full HP. This is for vehicles only, sice pgren are tank support unit.
  • #12
    8 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 643
    I like the idea of Critical repair for Pzgren and slow speed reapair, as in Coh1 Pzgren is the only infantry in Panzer elite faction that can build and repair, and they have Panzer in their name.

    USF has decrew, UKF has anvil engineer, Soviet has doc Cons repair kit and repair station, OKW sturmpion repair speed is 60% faster than other, only Ost suffer from Pion has to fix too many tank.
  • #13
    8 months ago

    @DarjeelingMK7 said:
    Historically, a panzer grenadier squad is organized around 2 Mg42, so a Mg42 upgrade will be very reference but at the same time take away the unit intended role is close range DPS so never mind.

    G43 for pgren has already in some doctrin, and in the case of 5 man squad with 3 stg, a G43 upgrade should replace 3 stg with 3 G43.

    Pgren is stock so we cant give them too much more than blunder nade.

    With 5 man as i suggested, the blunders can be replaced by a normal stick nade and some kind of sprint. Or, may be, we can allow them to reaper vehicles at a slower rate than pio, or quickly repair critical, but not restore full HP. This is for vehicles only, sice pgren are tank support unit.

    I think those abilities would be serve Panzergrenadiers better than just a bundle grenade, its is not that great in damage compared to a regular allied grenade from what I have seen. Costs a little more in comparison too.

    It should get "Support Package" by default, costs 30 (should increase around by 40 if it becomes by default) which is only currently available in German Infantry Doctrine. It has repair, comes along with more interesting abilities that ultimately fulfills its role as Panzergrenadier which it should get by default as a unit for supporting vehicles. It should be that way especially when Wehrmacht totally lacks in comparison to the rest of the other factions to repair their own vehicles. That "support package" then should sacrifice Panzerschreks upgrade I think, otherwise it becomes too strong then. "Support Package" should more for vehicle support and for better anti-infantry capabilities, because of the abilities available that comes along with that upgrade.

    @C3Tooth said:
    I like the idea of Critical repair for Pzgren and slow speed reapair, as in Coh1 Pzgren is the only infantry in Panzer elite faction that can build and repair, and they have Panzer in their name.

    USF has decrew, UKF has anvil engineer, Soviet has doc Cons repair kit and repair station, OKW sturmpion repair speed is 60% faster than other, only Ost suffer from Pion has to fix too many tank.

    It seems that Coh1 successfully fulfilled its role as Panzergrenadier when in Coh2, fails to meet its requirements. Every other factions as both C3Tooth and DarjeelingMK7 has metioned, has an easier time repairing vehicles than Wehrmacht. Wehrmacht lacks that also. If this were to happen, then SU should get medbase upgrade for a cheaper price around 200 manpower (or less) or like Wehrmacht 150 manpower and 60 ammo. Panzergrenadiers should be another unit as an alternative for repairing vehicles (but should definitely be worse than pioneers repair rate) in order to make Panzergrenadiers more of a viable option.

    It currently lacks its role against infantry when it drops like flies (metaphorically speaking compared to other units) thus forcing you to retreat earlier than most units, and it definitely requires a 5 man squad or something that will definitely improve its survivability. These changes really seems necessary because as it currently is, it is often something which I would personally ignore picking as an option. I would usually go for something else at the moment which is more durable and better for its price.

    Make these changes please Relic, it would be nice!

  • #14
    8 months ago

    how abot swaping pgren with assault gren. Assault gen have 5 man and close DPS, will fit nicely in the intended role of pgen with more survivability, with some tweak, of course, like weapons profile change, target side addjust, add blunder, and remove spint, etc (this need to be carefully discuss, thought).

    with pgren move to mechanize assault doc, they can have all the abiility you mention, like being 5 man, repare..... Also, the name "panzergrenadier" sound fit in a "mechanized" doctrin to me. what do you think ?

  • #15
    8 months ago

    It is great, of course Assault gens would require then improvements in DPS because MP40 is the worst smg in game because you really have to get to melee or close range in order to get the utmost performance. PPSH outshines especially STG44 to some extent (PPSH is a little stronger).

    I like the idea, it is good. Just a pity that Assualt Grenadiers are only currently accessible to 1 General only. Sounds interesting if they got 3 STG44 and 2MP40 (or vice versa). Would be an interesting combination would you not say? Maybe it require some more deep thinking before implementing an idea like this.

    DarjellingMK7, it is a great idea, I like it very much indeed. I do not personally think that Panzergrenadiers should be ignored (not that you have said that) because it has been unit ignored many times throughout many patches. It needs a buff in order to fulfill its role.

    Sturmpiooners (being overall more cost effective with more utilities, fullfills Pzgrens shoes better) are better in my opinion overall in comparison to Panzergrenadiers (lacking). Time is another factor of course, but you see the point. Again the idea would be great if they got replaced or added (which I would prefer more). Just would require more adjustments then. If it does better, I would personally do not mind replacing the current Pzgrens and just change its name with some more tweak and improvements like you have mentioned. If it is indeed for the better!

  • #16
    8 months ago

    I had already think about STG for assault gren if swaping with pgen, but it should be an upgrade, like 3 stg for 80-90 muni., and it will be the only weapons upgrade for them, no more psherk. Instead, we can give werh access to psheck by pio, add the 5th man and 1 psheck to pio squad, lock out mine sweaper (require BP2). Psheck upgrade to pio will also increase repare rate and solve one more part of werh 4 man squad problem.

  • #17
    8 months ago

    Nice, this keeps getting more interesting.

    This is an even greater idea especially with the 3 stg upgrade. Pioneers themselves can have the option to equip Panzershreks instead. Usually when I get Panzergrenadiers, normally want to have access to more anti-infantry usage and if you compare now to Penals with PTRS upgrade, you can see there is a huge difference in terms of AT. Penals are so much deadlier in terms of AT than Panzergrenadiers. In general I do not even buy Panzergrenadiers for Panzershreks upgrade since Pak40 does a better job for its price. Yes, access 1 Panzerschrek only for Pioneers only around BP2.

    If these changes takes place. Oh boy will this be more fun, and at least there would improvements which is required. Great idea DarjellingMK7, it is simply a great idea for improvements and fixes for Wehrmacht.

  • #18
    8 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    Far too much in the main post to address everything on mobile, so I'll start with just the pgrens at this time--you are wrong right off the cuff. Pgrens have a target size of 0.8, this is lower than all allied infantry except Tommies if my memory serves me right (I don't off the hop recall rangers or commandos, so they could be lower)
    Their DPS is good at all ranges so they CAN chose to sit in cover against something like commandos or charge against something like conscripts.
    They don't need special abilities or a price reduction because they are potent in and of themselves. Don't charge them across neg cover and keep them supported and they will provide the mobile punch that grens and pios cannot. Double Shreks is an absolute monster of mobile AT, and it got a price reduction not long ago.

    Only changes I'd see to them would be changing their vet 1 to better reflect a role as mechanised infantry and distinguish them as support for vehicles in the way that grens and pios support their mg42.

    Statistically they are a marvel, any poor performance stems from improper use.
  • #19
    8 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    Pg only can go toe to toe with shock and commando on vet3 with its ra level up though. Their 4 man squad also fall harder against rifles and brens. I think they need a relook since their bundle grenades nerf. Shrek cost lowered is helpful against fast allies tank rusu
  • #20
    8 months ago
    Balanced_GamerBalanced_… Posts: 200

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Far too much in the main post to address everything on mobile, so I'll start with just the pgrens at this time--you are wrong right off the cuff. Pgrens have a target size of 0.8, this is lower than all allied infantry except Tommies if my memory serves me right (I don't off the hop recall rangers or commandos, so they could be lower)
    Their DPS is good at all ranges so they CAN chose to sit in cover against something like commandos or charge against something like conscripts.
    They don't need special abilities or a price reduction because they are potent in and of themselves. Don't charge them across neg cover and keep them supported and they will provide the mobile punch that grens and pios cannot. Double Shreks is an absolute monster of mobile AT, and it got a price reduction not long ago.

    Only changes I'd see to them would be changing their vet 1 to better reflect a role as mechanised infantry and distinguish them as support for vehicles in the way that grens and pios support their mg42.

    Statistically they are a marvel, any poor performance stems from improper use.

    You do make some points however, I just think its is necessary that a unit at that cost should get one or more utilities like the "Support Package" that I have mentioned before that is only currently accessible in "German Infantry Doctrine".

    Pzgrens are not the only ones to have a target size of 0.8. British base Infantry/tommies have also a target size of 0.8 and they have more upgrades and utilities in comparison to Pzgrens alone. More alternatives, choices that further enhances their firepower and survivability making them overall more better than Pzgrens especially in the long-run. Correct if I am wrong but they can also equip PIAT.

    Go https://www.coh2db.com/stats/#86, then check UKF then under "Infantry" select Infantry Section. You will see their target size too

    I am not saying they are terrible the Panzergrenadiers, they are just not good enough for their price. Sturmpiooner fits the role of a Panzergrenadier better because it really supports vehicles. The initial solution I suggested was only in addition to their upgrades as another alternative besides the Panzershrek would be "Support Package". Then this would definitely compensate for its current price.

    British Base Infantry perform better in terms of accuracy, firepower and survivability. Best when behind cover which can be used if not, most of the time. Panzergrenadiers rely heavily only getting close only when they get "Bolster Squad" and weapon upgrades, which means you have to always surprise attack late game which is not always possible. Early to Mid game however, depending or not whether they have purchased "Bolster Squad", then Panzergrenadiers are good then short to mid range. Overall British Base Infantry are better than Panzergrenadiers.

    Just to even odds a little, Panzergrenadiers have AT upgrade costing 100ammo. It is good but usually there are other better altneratives and I usually want to go for an infantry unit that is for anti-infantry. Panzergrenadiers are an option but they are not that good in the long run. Vet 3 is when they have (slightly better than british infantry) better received accuracy but the lack of utilities does not compensate for its performance. It just needs another role or more utilities.

    Maybe the lastest point if have stated about having a 5 man and more, was just an idea to counter this problem. Maybe it is too much for some. I only suggested that it should get other alternatives to make it more useful with at least another option than just picking AT upgrade.

    "Support Package" would solve its problems especially the abilities that comes along with it. It should be available when it is Enhanced to Battle Phase 2, so it can start being more useful. I think that would be best since Wehr is poor in terms of repairing vehicles where other factions have better and more alternatives.

    It does not have to increase in survivability, not necessarily, but just needs more utilities, more options than it currently has. Maybe see it as another alternative to compensate for their overall repairs. Only an AT upgrade, it currently has which is not what everyone would pick. "Support Package" should be as another alternative that would compensate.

    Is that a better idea?

  • #21
    8 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    You clearly only skimmed my post because I specified that pgrens have a better target size than all NON BRIT infantry.

    They already come with STGs anything more would be OP. With a perfect 100% accuracy only 8/10 shots will hit, throw in any cover at all and that falls to 4/10 shots.... Nobody but snipers have perfect accuracy.

    They can close fine if you don't charge across no cover and they will massacre anything there when they do. They are shock infantry that can be turned into an AT squad if you need them to. And no, there is no better AT weapon at any better price than a pair of Shreks for 100mu seriously none. They can pen all allied mediums frontally 100% of the time and deal 120 damage each.

    Comparing them to Tommies is silly. Tommies are the mainstay of the brit faction. They have more flexibility in abilities because they are supposed to. Their counter parts are grens not panzer grens. Panzer grens are ~~penals or Obers, both of whom have similar utility.


    Also check your stats and compare sturms and panzergrens, you will find that there is a reason sturms are cheaper when it comes to combat performance.
  • #22
    8 months ago
    Balanced_GamerBalanced_… Posts: 200

    I know the differences already between Sturmpiooners and Panzergrenadiers. You ignored the fact that I said that they are good with AT, but there other better alternatives like Pak40, thus saving me 100ammo, see it from that perspective.

    Panzergrenadiers excel only when stationary, when on the move, they miss more often like other units. It heavily relies on them having to be stationary, they are not bad when moving but nothing to an advancing Shock Troop unit (a doctrine unit accessible to many more Soviet generals in comparison to Stormtroopers). It is not supposed be like Shock Troops, but the what I am point out is there hits register more often within a certain range compared to Panzergrenadiers.

    The thing is, if you lose 1 model, Panzergrenadiers lose their firewpower (which already everyone knows by now), they are indeed strong but also heavily relies on them staying alive with 4 models. Penals advance are somewhat better because they have compensation for each model lost thus gaining a slight passive accuracy per each model lost. They on lose a 1/6 of firepower, in addition have that passive ability.

    Panzergrenadier yes, has better received accuracy than some, but requires you heavily to vet, thus you must take casualties and inflict them, but it becomes too costy in the long run.

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Far too much in the main post to address everything on mobile, so I'll start with just the pgrens at this time--you are wrong right off the cuff. Pgrens have a target size of 0.8, this is lower than all allied infantry except Tommies if my memory serves me right (I don't off the hop recall rangers or commandos, so they could be lower)
    Their DPS is good at all ranges so they CAN chose to sit in cover against something like commandos or charge against something like conscripts.
    They don't need special abilities or a price reduction because they are potent in and of themselves. Don't charge them across neg cover and keep them supported and they will provide the mobile punch that grens and pios cannot. Double Shreks is an absolute monster of mobile AT, and it got a price reduction not long ago.

    Only changes I'd see to them would be changing their vet 1 to better reflect a role as mechanised infantry and distinguish them as support for vehicles in the way that grens and pios support their mg42.

    Statistically they are a marvel, any poor performance stems from improper use.

    Yes you have implied that Tommies followed by Panzergrenadiers have the same RA. Sorry for you any inconvenience that I may have caused you!

    I just feel that Panzergrenadiers should at least have "Support Package" as option which costs 30ammo (currently is so in the German Infantry Doctrine) can be increased in price, but used as its actual specified role as "Panzergrenadier".

    Although Tommies are different from Panzergrenadiers, that I totally get but it also has to mentioned that they can have 5 guys making them overall more better in terms of survivability. Not only that but also more utilities which Panzergrenadier lacks, Tommies can get if they wanted to either medkit or coordinated fire ability, and get up to two bren guns to excel even more in firepower (one to two brens will already be better than Panzergreandiers behind cover especially with 5 guys). Speaking of firepower, Tommies are much more powerful in the long run in comparison, that firepower excels with weapon upgrades especially behind cover. Take that also to be taken into consideration.

    Tommies can push from cover to cover, range being best at medium-long range, short even as long they do not engage those mainly suited for that range.

    So, no. It is not a "Silly" example as you claim it to be. Again two different units, does not mean you can not compare them to each other or even mention their differences. Those are the points I have stated.

    Panzergrenadiers just lacks choices, not only that but Wehrmacht lacks repairing choices. What is the wrong in that? I just think it is a nice idea of them having a "Support Package" ONLY. That should not hurt right? Panzergrenadiers themselves should an least have another utility or option because what is the meaning behind the name. It is a mechanized unit, therefore it should have some form of utility in terms of mechanization.

    If "Support Package" is taken, you can not Pick "AT Panzershreks". Those are my thoughts currently

    Tommies are way more versatile as you have mentioned because they are supposed to be so. How about Panzergrenadiers? What about them?

  • #23
    8 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    Panzer grens are not a Tommy counterpart. grens and volks and rifles and cons are! Panzer grens are close to penals and Obers or falls. You are trying to make a comparison where there is none to be had.
    Yes a pak40 is a better AT option but it's less mobile and needs to set up/ has an arc. Shreks do not. If you don't like the Shreks don't use them but not act as though they are not very much used and very potent.
  • #24
    8 months ago
    Balanced_GamerBalanced_… Posts: 200

    You point a good difference between Pak40 and Panzergrenadiers with AT.

    What do you personally think about the idea of Panzergrenadiers (as I had defined its specified role) to have a "Support Package" as an alternative instead of going for AT as the only option?

    I mean The British have excluding the tommies, a lot of things under their sleeves if you compare it to the rest of the factions. I do not think I would have to get in depth to discuss the differences.

    I think of this as an alternative, since it does not have many doctrines that provide special units if you compare it to Soviets having more than (compare it to Wehrmacht units accessibility) 3 generals have Shock Troops as an option. It is more frequent than that you would encounter a Stormtrooper or any other special infantry unit Wehrmacht has in comparison. Even then if you compare Wehrmacht alone, it does not by base have a lot of abilities in its arsenal. Not that they are bad but lack in terms of choices, possibly versatility.

    I just think of this as an incentive drive for people to really consider taking Panzergrenadiers a bit more often than it currently is now. I think it is good personally the Panzergrenadiers, just if you compare you can clearly see the differences.

    Wehrmacht does not have many alternatives when it comes to repairing vehicles, this would be some kind of fix to this issue.
    It does not have any doctrines that have self-repair. Not one other doctrine except German Infantry Doctrine, which you can upgrade Panzergrenadiers with Support Package that provides extra repairs. I do not think they should heavily rely on pioneers only. I just think this would make it more of an interesting option if were by default.

  • #25
    8 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 694
    Whermacht is more about specialists then generalists. They do this well imo. But they can seem weak because off it.

    Wher lacking self repair or other form of repair. Wher has pnzr smoke in quite some doctrines for all vehicles. The reduces the damage they take greatly. Effectively erasing the need for extra repai options imo.
  • #26
    8 months ago
    Balanced_GamerBalanced_… Posts: 200

    I mean USF is the faction with the best repair speed in my opinion since they can use the crew from the tank to repair, saves time and it is more efficient that way.

    UKF engineers repairs faster and have some vehicles that can repair itself, some vehicles also have smoke already without the need of having doctrine.

    SU have a few doctrines that include repair station, and conscripts getting a repair package, and vehicles that get the ability to repair itself (with doctrine only). Engineers that vet easier than Piooners getting a better repairing advantage.

    OKW has a very good repair speed too. Sturmpio good, and Mechanized base with upgrade to repair .

    Wehr however has one option only, Pios that suffer worse than all factions. Does not really have a doctrine that includes repairs. I believe it would be nice for them by default to get a so called "Support Package" as I have mentioned before for Panzergrenadiers because how often will one purchase Panzershreks sacrifing its infantry power which Wehr lacks. I would rather have it focus on infantry instead since it is good.

    I just think having it as an option would simply solve its issue. Other factions by having a faster time means they can make more usuage of their vehicles.

    Other factions also have some vehicles that already have smoke without the need of a doctrine. I do not think it is the solution to Wehrmacht's problems.

    Choosing a doctrine is often critical and smoke "Panzer Tactician" I personally like the ability but in many situations, I have to pick over another doctrine which is better suited in those kinds of situations.

    It just needs some changes and improvements.

  • #27
    8 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 694
    Didnt ost get repair bunkers? And most axis tanks get armour and hp bonuses with vet. Unlike allies. That also counts for something.
  • #28
    8 months ago
    Balanced_GamerBalanced_… Posts: 200
    edited March 5

    Yes but it costs 380 manpower. A bit too much I would say. Why not the default bunkers have the option to repair vehicles as an option. Would most certainly solve their problem this way.

    I think it would be so nice if Panzergrenadiers (without the need of doctrine) have an upgrade to G43. I just like its capabilites with longer range. I think that it would be a nice addition to them. It is only accessible to them with a doctrine, such a pity I would say because it would be nice if G43 were to be used more often specifically only available to elite units. Just an idea only for Panzergrenadiers.

    I mean allies have more choices in terms of weapon upgrades, overall can get better upgrades than Volks and Grens alone.

    Mostly the USF and UKF. Both factions have the ability to equip any unit with any weapon of any kind making them in the long run better than what axis has to offer as they are limited in terms of weapon upgrades. Can get LMG with an Assualt Rifle which is something axis cant do. I combination of two different kinds of weapon upgrades.

    It would really be nice if all factions in game could have the option to get weapon racks like UKF and USF. Not some upgrade that pops up in the middle of an engagement. Just to have it a bit more realistic in that sense.

    I played 2v2 a few times where the allied players were communicating or playing together, specifically a UKF and USF players. The USF player could take weapons from the UKF, UKF player had a doctrine that included a Vickers weapon option. The USF player took the upgrades from UKF, I think equipped one Vickers and a Bren for each Rifleman (early to mid game) making it a formidable blob to up against. I do not think he had to upgrade his own purchases in order to get weapon upgrades, thus saving manpower and fuel.

    I simply had no chance. I think it is quite an OP combination when USF and UKF play together because they can share weapon options. One weapon options which may perform better for the other faction since it may be possible that there is no downsides for equipping a weapon from another faction that gets no nerfs when a basic units equips it when its specially used for an elite unit, thus getting the increased damage.

    Clear example is OKW, when a Volks picks up an MG34 from a dead Obersoldaten squad, it gets from 6 damage to 4 damage per shot (When Obersoldaten has MG34, it is 6 damage per shot). I do not think it has been taken into consideration when UKF and USF, when they share their weapon options. I feel that it is unfair since they get a huge advantage. I think Vickers machine gun (since it is doctrinal) it is therefore better than Mg42 upgrade alone. As I have said also before MG42 is still buggy, takes sometimes huge breaks which is rather abnormal.

    They excel incredibly when they share weapons from other factions USF & UKF, I really do not know it is a thing but they just excel incredibly when that happens. I think the devs need to look more into this!!

    I do not know if anyone else has experienced this but lately I have had a difficult time placing HMGs or even holding ground when my units get laser beamed with upgrades that does not belong to the faction. Something that may have been overlooked.

    Should this even be a thing in game because I just think it is too strong to be countered when an occurence such as what I have experienced happens!!!

  • #29
    8 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 694
    Both ukf and usf pay a lot more getting that level of fire power. And they can drop those weapons. Unlike stg,s. Both axis get acces to their non doc upgrade regardles. Imo pgrens do a good job in the ai department without the g43. Giving it to them non doc will make grens less appealing.

    In case of ukf i think bolster and double equiping should lock eachother out. That would be more balanced imo.

    Rifles are meant to carry the faction so i am onboard with them being strong.

    If axis capture say allied at guns td,s etc then preform better vs allied tanks because off lower armour in general when compared to axis tanks. So allies picking up lmg34/42 and it being strong because axis have lower hp/models is fine for the most part. Basicly its balanced that way imo.
  • #30
    8 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    > @TheLeveler83 said:
    > Both ukf and usf pay a lot more getting that level of fire power. And they can drop those weapons. Unlike stg,s. Both axis get acces to their non doc upgrade regardles. Imo pgrens do a good job in the ai department without the g43. Giving it to them non doc will make grens less appealing.
    >
    > In case of ukf i think bolster and double equiping should lock eachother out. That would be more balanced imo.
    >
    > Rifles are meant to carry the faction so i am onboard with them being strong.
    >
    > If axis capture say allied at guns td,s etc then preform better vs allied tanks because off lower armour in general when compared to axis tanks. So allies picking up lmg34/42 and it being strong because axis have lower hp/models is fine for the most part. Basicly its balanced that way imo.

    I was toying with the idea of making all NON elite units have only 1 weapon slot that increases to 2 when fully vetted. This would prevent the massive power leaps of having weapon racks and smooth out the balance of power.
  • #31
    8 months ago
    Balanced_GamerBalanced_… Posts: 200

    I like your idea about Brits getting either the option to increase squad or gain access to more weapons. That would be balanced. Currently if you compare them to Wehrmacht, UKF simply dominates. In contrast, UKF has better upgrades, better units, more utility and have arty that just costs 45 ammo.

    It would really be nice for Wehrmacht to get an option like that too. Either increase squad size (survivability) or gain access to weapons (damage) for Grenadiers specifically. Currently MG42 upgrade for Grenadier is really buggy at times, it does not shoot for a 3 good seconds or more, it happens sometimes, and misses completely after the break. There is no compensation, for Grenadiers at times, I feel the upgrade is not worth it until vet 2 or 3. That is when it shines. It is inconsistent.

    You are right in some ways when allies have a harder time to equip weapons but the difference is, they can equip with any class, and some classes suit better in certain situation with the upgrade making them overall better than axis in the long run.

    If you think like this, USF Rifleman are the best guys to carry AT, cause they also have an ability to stun vehicles. Getting two Bazookas would make them more efficient thus becoming Pzgrens but simply better in terms of AT. Weapon upgrades for allies are definitely better overall, although they come a little later, they will most definitely dominate as infantry especially the Brits, when they can even choose a variety of weapons best suited to their abilities. Mid to late game.

    It would really be nice if all factions could get weapon racks, to increase the fun and the diversity of the game. It would be a really nice addition to spicen up the game. What do you think @TheLeveler83 especially everyone else?

    Also what thedarkarmadillo said to limit it to one weapon until when fully vetted, get two. I think that would balance the game more overall. Prevent any power leaps.

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