Panther tank is useless



  • #62
    1 year ago
    DarjeelingMK7Darjeelin… Posts: 245
    edited February 2019
    > @mrgame2 said:
    > I can only say your experiment differs greatly from mine. I had them at max distance outside fog, set on expert ai, then micro the hell out of them, more often then not firefly survive. Its realistic when you think of it, panther hunting firefly from the dark, will release a shot once it comes into view, and this shot is 5050 to miss, while the firefly will volley back from stationery, most likely to hit for 240hp.
    > Then its down to 3v4 hits advantage firefly.

    Dont you see that i do set them at max distance out of the fog.
    Start from max distant, AI and fow on, all i have to do is right click until i see the firefly and pop up the bliiz.

    How can the firefly shoot at you fist without sight?

    Post your own replay before split out anything else, pleae.

    Up to now, most of the thing you state about the panther and firefly are wrong and show that you dont know how the unit work.

    Not to mention you said churchill and comet beat panther, which obviously wrong. Tested in cheat mod.

    Against, Post your own replay before speaking anything else, pleae.
  • #63
    1 year ago
    DarjeelingMK7Darjeelin… Posts: 245
    edited February 2019
    your speaking have some problem here.

    From max distance, event with sight, firefly can only do 1 shoot before panther get in range. And, if you say firefly volley back from stationary, it will be exactly like my fist test and firefly will dead. If the firefly do move, it accuracy drop as well, and it will die like my second test.

    Once close in, with blitz, panther can outmanoeuvre firefly with no difficult, firefly turret cant turn fast enough to keep up with panther's speed. Did you forgot to right click or what ?

    Again, biggest question, with fog of war on, how can the firefly get the fist shoot, since them have the same range of vision?

    What you are saying about your test seem dont match together. I'm questioning that did you actually do the test, or you just make it up.
  • #64
    1 year ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 904

    Turn on Fog
    At 60m, even FF able to shoot, but both dont see each other
    At 50m, both can shoot to each other, but both still dont see each other
    At 40m, both can see & shoot each other, this range is too late for FF to pull of 5rounds (200hp x 5rounds) to kill a 960hp Panther because it will takes FF 32sec. Panther can kill the FF with 4rounds (160hp x 4rounds) to kill a 640hp FF in 19.5sec

    As a USF main player with highly experience Jackson play. Mostly I get a single Riflemen vet1 to get close to Panther. Most of the time Panther staying there because a Riflemen does no threat. I get a Jackson stay at 50m being hold fire. Until Riflemen animation about to throw a snare, Jackson take Panther's hp down to 83%. Because of snare damage engine at 75% mechanic, Riflemen snare does just enough to engine damage Panther. With Riflemen sight & Jackson. You know the result, Panther retreat successfully because it requires 6rounds to take it down and not always pen, Jackson doesnt lose a single hp.
    Image there is no Riflemen, Panther simply rush in, Jackson surely dead.

    It requires strategy to play glass canon, which Panther doesnt requires strategy but just rush in and hope for some kills (which they actually do most of the time)

  • #65
    1 year ago

    I appreciate the tests you DarjeelingMK7 have done on Firefly and Panther. JUST TO CLARIFY, I have never said that it could take the Panther out single handedly WITHOUT SUPPORT.

    Firefly is a tank that you have to treat like a sniper, that is the advantage of it which often prevents axis from advancing their tanks because it is like a shock to them when they do not realise or see the target that shot you as an axis player (of course that can happen also to Allies but the fact is allies are overall more versatile, a situation like this occurs more often against axis favour).

    Sight of Firefly is definitely limited but has a devastating firepower at the cost of reload which is longer than others. I think reload time is around 8 seconds. Correct me if I am wrong. Reason being, it has high damage, longer range plus a turret which other AT tanks like SU85, Jagdpanzer and Stug does not have. Thus it requires the UKF to have units in order to provide the Firefly with sight + support. Firefly is really a great AT support unit. Not OP but simply a great support unit to have at your arms.

    I will repeat, has to be treated like a sniper, needs to have support, can not stand alone.

    If you compare others such as Jagdpanzer (same price) it ricochets Comet a bit more often than Panther (having better penetration power which Jagdpanzer should have more or less because of it having the same gun). It just feels lacking in terms of AT which Firefly is better at but is really a vehicle that requires assistance due to low health, armour and reload (for Firefly mainly). Jagdpanzer is not as good as Firefly in comparison, it has worse penetration, that is what is sacrificed for reload speed. Overall Firefly is better than Jagdpanzer.

    That is what I was stating earlier. Not even worth buying the Jadgpanzer than Firefly I would say unless I do not have much of a choice or if want to go for more options/different units, more AA usage which Panther lacks for its price.
    Same I said earlier, I would personally go for Comet more than Panther for its price and performance.

    OKW has Raketenwerfers which is good but the reason I do not like it is because of its range (upside being able to camo, great advantage) but I really prefer in my opinion the Pak40 due to its range. A lot of allied infantry units have better DPS in terms of short to mid range and greandes that are relatively stronger (range sacrificed but devastating), it is more often that you lose a Raketenwerfer in comparison to Pak40 although it can retreat but usually allied infantry are better in chasing down squads than axis (more in favour of mid to long).

    Raketenwerfers, if you play it smart can be difficult to kill but there are many situations where infantry units can not really support it because as an OKW player, you have to constantly pressure the enemy in order to get forward. You can support it of course but what I want to state is how good is its durability?

    That video, you can see how many times the Raketenwerfer got countered and captured compared to UKFs antitank support gun. Chased down even because of the fact it is forced to get into closer ranges. Findeed v Jove, you can see on the video. OKW in some ways has worse support weapons although you can get it early, it is something that you have retreat a lot with unless you go super defensively (take one shot, see nearby enemy squad closing in, retreat is the best option). I appreciate your opinions and for your time DarjeelingMK7. Just wanted to point out clearly what I have stated earlier, crystal clear.

  • #66
    1 year ago

    It is not you, Balanced_gamer, but MrGame2, are the one who keep talking nonsense about panther vs firefly, and i did the test to prove that he was wrong. Thank you very much for recognizing me.

    You got some point that i do agree about OKW support weapons and AT capable, but it is for another thread.

    today, we are here to talk about the panther and i see that you have some very accuracy point of view on the firefly, +1 for those.

  • #67
    1 year ago
    Slight sidebar here, the JP4 excels at daging allied TDs being the only axis stock unit that can return fire and the TDs themselves not being too armored
  • #68
    1 year ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    Well we can go back and forth till sunset, its really down to relic to accept the proof and recommendations brought up. We are lucky to have the pro 2v2 championship to highlight the weak state of wehr faction, its all out there to see. Let see if relic modders can let go of their ego and relook into the balance.
  • #69
    1 year ago
    DarjeelingMK7Darjeelin… Posts: 245
    edited February 2019
    > @mrgame2 said:
    > Well we can go back and forth till sunset, its really down to relic to accept the proof and recommendations brought up. We are lucky to have the pro 2v2 championship to highlight the weak state of wehr faction, its all out there to see. Let see if relic modders can let go of their ego and relook into the balance.

    Talking about championship, i want to remind you the disappearing of British force from 1V1 King of the hill. So your point is not that big
  • #70
    1 year ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    Speaking of latest koth, also look at, the top10 players win stats of 1v1. Are we surprised wehr and brit top10 have the lowest average win rates, and wehr has the lowest current win steaks. No surprises sov dominate both areas follow by usf. If we can filter current dates from 2018, im sure results are even more dire!

    Another support for what i have been showing and campaigning for improvement to Wehr faction. Peace out
  • #71
    1 year ago
    I can see some of wher, problem, but meanwhile all other factions also have their own problem.

    I can see your effort to improve wher. But changes at factions lever have to be done on a foundation of consider all other factions as well, not just ignore other's problems and OP this, OP that.
  • #72
    1 year ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited February 2019
    Brit is basically a hardier wehr faction, meaning its performance per unit cost is lower than sov and usf. Wehr problems is very real and clear.

    In general, i propose a +20% ra buff to all non-doc infantry and support teams. Many times we lose mg42 man thanks to 5-6 man allies infantry strong close range dps moves. Grens, mg, mortar and pg will have more staying power and more time to reposition.
    Stug pen to 220-200-180 across.
    Panther move accuracy from 0.55 to 0.65. still a bloody expensive tank that also reduces infantry presence which wehr infantry is so behind.

    We will let Allies keep their unique faction advantage attributes for now.
    Im not a fan of how allies unit performance have got buffs over time, yet retaining these special attributes, sov is clearly dominant faction now because of this. As shown in

    Let see how this goes.
  • #73
    1 year ago
    20% buff for all infantry, right, lest deleted other factions and call the game, company of Wehrmacht. You ask for staying power while wehr have a stock hafttrack that can reinforce on the field.

    Leaving your MG42 alone vs 4-5 others infantry squad is an unacceptable failure, where is your army? Mg42 can handle up to 3 infantry squad from the front ad yet someone is asking it to stand again an army.

    If you insist in Stug pen buff , it have to be around 140 150 fuel and pop increase. After that, you can make another thread about how cant you afford TD and a blob of panther.

    I still personally think a new unit like jagdpanther will be more fit in the role you want, due to the nature of the stug, same gun as basis AT gun.

    If 0.65 accuracy on the move on panther is fine, then so does the comet.

    Anyway, i dont see your "alies get buff over time", i dont know much about us or sov, but brit only get neft since they was released, they do get some tweak, but not buf up until the last revamp.
  • #74
    1 year ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    20% received accruacy buff is needed because of the 4 man squad, since they are very base line that i dont see which other attributes overcome their weakness to squad wipes
  • #75
    1 year ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 904

    A riflemen model is slightly worse than a gren model, for their cost are 56mp & 60mp. Point is a Riflemen squad has 5model which make their price 40mp more than Gren squad. If you want a Gren model 20% better than a Riflemen model, then the price should go up to 70mp per model, not 60mp.

    The unfairness is not laying on their price,firepower, durable. With that cheap price of 240mp with high fire power, Gren must lose durable. The unfairness is their population cost. Im sure with 70popcap, 50 Riflemen models armed with 15-20 Bars will destroy 40 Gren models armed with 10 LMG.
    Same case to at 70popcap, 60 Conscripts have to face 50 Volks armed with 20 Stg.

  • #76
    1 year ago
    Being 4 man is not a reason to required some insane buff like that, not to mention you want it on all on doc infantry. If you dont see any other attribute to overcome 4 man, then let get rid of the Mg 42 upgrade and you will have your 20%.
  • #77
    1 year ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    What no? RA won't make grens more deadly, read what mrsmith said about RA and accrucay stats. But at least with RA buff, gren can stay around longer especially late game, where the allies larger infantry squad is more likely to survive. So a new gren sqaud late game is serious disadvantage.

    I think a 10% ra buff at vet0 and another 15% buff at vet1 for grens.

    Right now gren is 0.91 at vet 0 and 0.71 at vet3.

    My proposal will make them 0.82 at vet0 and 0.7 at vet1.

    Not much change just brought forward to help squishy disadvantages.
  • #78
    1 year ago

    Like british infantry which performs better than grenadier although it has no Panzerfaust (AT capability but can equip PIAT I think). Already (British Infantry) have received accuracy of 0.8 vet 0, although the unit costs more (280 manpower), it has additional options to furthermore increase their survivability and firepower. Making it better

    They can have 5 guys with that RA it has, with 1 or 2 Brens (shines better when behind cover, can be better than MG42), depending on the situation. It is more likely that they just have 5 man upgrade without weapons unless they have excess ammo. I have mentioned that on another forum called "WEHRMACHT NEEDS CHANGES! PANZERGRENADIERS, BUGS AND MORE"

    For grenadiers alternative would be an upgrade of 60 ammo to increase to 5 guys but sacrifices the upgrade for MG42. That would compensate in my opinion. MG42 is still a little buggy, does not always perform the way it should, inconsistent.

    A change or alternative between firepower or survivability. This requires the person playing in depth thought and more strategy thinking in game. To sacrifice either firepower or survivability. Surely this would be a nice implementation.

  • #79
    1 year ago
    szolnok95szolnok95 Posts: 93

    @DarjeelingMK7 said:
    Panther is not supposed to be good against everything as is is an anti armour medium tank following it's description. Stop spamming panther and build a panzer 4 for infantry.

    Unrealistic? The Churchill MK7 in real life has 155mm of frontal armour, more than a tiger 1, the game reflected this as it is. It still can be pen by panther, at and event sherck. It often take more shot due to the fact that is is slow.

    In the other hand, Churchill has a gun of a Cromwell and slow as hell so it is no harm to panther without at least an AT to support.

    If you opponent back up his Churchill with AT or firefly, while you leave your panther alone then it's mean he have better combined arm and micro than you and so should win.

    The fact is that Churchill gun can faile to pen event fz 4 armour.

    For the Commet, it locked you up from Churchill so it's a tactical choice and In 1v1 comet will lost to panther most of the time, test it yourself in mod.

    To make up the fact that comet cant 1v1 panther, it have more anti infantry capable and it is reasonable.

    Finally, If brit is king of the game then what is OKW? God?

    Just try to play brit and see for yourself.

    In real life Comet has 76mm front and 15mm side armor, and still shreck can bounce from its front/side...xD

  • #80
    1 year ago
    Late model Cromwell havr 100mm of front and 64mm side armor. Ingame, Cromwell only bounce psherk by extreme RNG.
  • #81
    1 year ago
    szolnok95szolnok95 Posts: 93

    Very good, but in game the brits have Cromwell MK IV.What hat 64mm front armor and 25mm front.
    But if the late cromwells had 102mm armor
    1.Sources claim not all of them was upgraded, and they are built in 1945 march-may.
    2. panzer IV still can pen 100m armor up to 1500 meter, Panther and Tiger more far.

    So still it should not bounce to much. I saw more bounce on a comet as on a Panther.
    And in WW2 only the 17 pdr APDS(What was rare as fuck and inaccurate) penetrated the UPF of the Panther from the brits.

  • #82
    1 year ago
    Cromwell Mk4 have 75mm front armor and in game they doesn't bounce pz4 very much. And you was talking about the panzesheck before, what does pz4 doing in here ?

    Panther front armor is 100mm on turret front and 80mm at 55° slope on hull front. QF 17 pounder's standard AP round have 124mm of pen from 1500m away, more than enough for panther.

    Further more, there are plenty of alies gun can pen panther.

    Anyway, the gane is NOT made for 100% historical accuracy.
  • #83
    1 year ago
    The QF 6 pounder's standard AP round have 112mm of pen at 500m, btw.
  • #84
    1 year ago
    szolnok95szolnok95 Posts: 93
    edited March 2019

    Panzersheck pen 180-200mm so it was evident to pen it :D
    Ye allies could pen the Panther turret, but not the UPF.
    If u do not believe in me, then:

  • #85
    1 year ago
    Did i said "sherck cant pen Cromwell"? NO, i did not say that. In game, there are chance of Cromwell bounce sherck, but it is very small, and it is because this is a game.
  • #86
    1 year ago

    Comet needs to be nerfed a little bit, currently it stands out way better only in terms of AI. AI capabilities counters with ease, grenade off hatch when vet 2 or 3, phosphorous shot, main gun great, it just great all round tank. Like Panther with less health but better in many more terms and aspects. Comet is the best medium/heavy tank in my opinion.

    Guys with Panzershreks become almost useless due to its great anti infantry capabilities. Otherwise shreks are great but Comet is impossible almost to go up against with Shreks.

    Panther just seems good but maybe should increase MG damage instead or effectiveness, I do not really know exactly because I am happy with the way the Panther is but not COMET, if changes are not made to Comet (nerfed against AI) , than Panther just needs to be a bit more aggressive than it currently is (improved in AI). Axis generally cannot push with tanks as great as Comet being the best in my opinion.

  • #87
    1 year ago
    szolnok95szolnok95 Posts: 93

    Panther should be similar to the Comet and that's it.

  • #88
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    Making the panther into a comet clone would be a nerf and leave the stug as the best non doc AT wehr can field. Panther has 3 mgs that offer decent AI (comet has 2). Panther has 50 range (comet has 45) panther has 960hp (comet has 800) comet has more armour! But the panther armour is already trivialized by allied TDs. Panther gets reload buffs with vet comet gets none.
  • #89
    1 year ago
    Panther is an AT vehicle and therefore have better AT than Comet, Comet is a generalist so it have less AT and more AI, why you keep complaining about them dont have same AI ??? I dont see any point of compare their AI, btw, panther AI is decent and required less micro than comet.
  • #90
    1 year ago
    I will be more than please if they make comet into a panther clone.
  • #91
    1 year ago

    @DarjeelingMK7 said:
    I will be more than please if they make comet into a panther clone.

    Do you not like the way the Comet currently is? Personally it is like a PanzerIV upgraded to Panthers strength but better simply. It is more forgiving since it is quite manoeuvrable, has phosphorous shot that can be also be used quickly as concealment or smoke, it has stronger armour which Panther shots tend to ricochet (same Comet shot ricocheting Panther).

    I am not complaining about Panther being bad or anything, I just think personally Comet is better overall since I think it is more freakier to go up against than Panther despite the differences stated. It engages very well against blobs which Panther a specialist of course cant.

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