WER & OBW - All - Panzerschreck upgrade

#1
1 month ago

Problem:

Infantry upgraded with Panzerschrecks have a very far, secure and accurate performance against all level of armor from enemy tanks.

Solution:

Reducing the range of units upgraded with Panzerschrecks by 7% more or less, since they already hit their target 90% of times if not more at max range and always dealing a devasting amount of damage, once again against all levels of armor. Making Sturmpioneer Squads (T1) a very cost efficient unit at all stages of the game. Also reducing its accuracy at max range.

Reducing its range and accuracy should be enough like not to reduce its high damage in my humble opinion.

Thanks,

Patrol Omega

«1

Comments

  • #2
    1 month ago
    Do you ever experiance high rank game?

    If shreck is that op pro would spam the crap out of it already.But they did not due to one reason that most tank out range shreak tank can just snipe out infantry model from max range.By the way what is your rank?
  • #3
    1 month ago
    Patrol_OmegaPatrol_Om… Posts: 136

    What is the percentage of pro players against the rest of the players?

  • #4
    1 month ago
    Wise man(in this forum) once said the game should be balance from top(by player who know how the game work and how to fully utilize the unit) to buttom not other way around.

    Go L2P.Learn how to micro tank.learn to use range advantage that your tank has.
  • #5
    1 month ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,719
    Shrek is expensive and only available on a minimum of 300mp units for the axis. The cheapest of whom only get 1. It's a trade off. And it's fine.
  • #6
    1 month ago
    BogeyfoxBogeyfox Posts: 148
    edited March 17

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Shrek is expensive and only available on a minimum of 300mp units for the axis. The cheapest of whom only get 1. It's a trade off. And it's fine.

    You forgot to say it's on 4-model-units only. And 4-model-units get killed by a single tanks shot. Therefor it's all good.

    @Holyspirit999 said:
    Wise man(in this forum) once said the game should be balance from top(by player who know how the game work and how to fully utilize the unit) to buttom not other way around.

    The idea to balance top - down doesn't balance but smoothes inbalances by greater potentials for some high-micro units.

    Perfect micro + the units. Result: Bad players expirience a lot of balance problems...
    Units only. Result: No differences...

    And balance here is mainly concerned about 1vs1.

  • #7
    1 month ago
    Balanced_GamerBalanced_… Posts: 111

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Shrek is expensive and only available on a minimum of 300mp units for the axis. The cheapest of whom only get 1. It's a trade off. And it's fine. It is quite costy too.

    I agree. It does not require any changes, compensation for survivability and no AT grenades to stun it to make it even more deadlier. It is fine that way it is.

    If anything I find personally more annoying is Penals or Guard Rifles with PTRS, plus satchel charge. That is the worst combination. They are fine that way they are but overall more devasting against AT personally and cheaper (Penal PTRS upgrade) with a 6 man squad.

    There is seriously nothing to complain about Shreks being strong, especially when they are limited to one class only for both axis faction.

    Is 70 ammo for one shrek for Sturmpios too much or should it be less like 50 or something? OKW the only faction for some reason are unable to build caches, do not why personally (it is not like they are OP) but I think it should be cheaper if anything like 50 ammo for Sturmpio. For instance Pzgrens upgrade for 2 Shreks is 100 ammo.

    100÷2 equals 50 ammo, so should it be that price instead?

  • #8
    1 month ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,719
    > @Balanced_Gamer said:
    > @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > Shrek is expensive and only available on a minimum of 300mp units for the axis. The cheapest of whom only get 1. It's a trade off. And it's fine. It is quite costy too.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > I agree. It does not require any changes, compensation for survivability and no AT grenades to stun it to make it even more deadlier. It is fine that way it is.
    >
    > If anything I find personally more annoying is Penals or Guard Rifles with PTRS, plus satchel charge. That is the worst combination. They are fine that way they are but overall more devasting against AT personally and cheaper (Penal PTRS upgrade) with a 6 man squad.
    >
    > There is seriously nothing to complain about Shreks being strong, especially when they are limited to one class only for both axis faction.
    >
    > Is 70 ammo for one shrek for Sturmpios too much or should it be less like 50 or something? OKW the only faction for some reason are unable to build caches, do not why personally (it is not like they are OP) but I think it should be cheaper if anything like 50 ammo for Sturmpio. For instance Pzgrens upgrade for 2 Shreks is 100 ammo.
    >
    > 100÷2 equals 50 ammo, so should it be that price instead?

    The satchel itself is devistating, the PTRS however is defensive. A threat only to the immobile.

    Also, iirc the pgren Shrek is priced as such as it is discounted as a bundle. Any time the game forced one to purchase things in pairs it has been cheaper than bought individually and that's good practice. The Shrek I well worth the 70 just because of reliability. Sturms however are a bit pricey imo
  • #9
    1 month ago
    Patrol_OmegaPatrol_Om… Posts: 136
    edited March 19

    @thedarkarmadillo Still, everyone knows Panzerschrecks have outstanding damage that can't be denied and best of all? Is from a very far and safe distance . . . not to mention the incredibly high accuracy they still have at the max range. Accuracy should be reduced along with max range.

    Is far easier to destroy enemy tanks with Panzerschrecks high burst from far away, than with Penals trying to step face to face with an enemy tank just to attach a single satchel. And guess what! They do are also available only for 300mp infantry unit.

    Therefore Panzerschrecks do require either damage reduction or range + accuracy reduction, as I've seen that this has been asked several times before in other posts. Is hard to hide the obvious.

  • #10
    1 month ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    Nonsense, shrek has been nerfed so much relic had to make it cheaper.

    You need 2 Shrek shot to connect to deal only 80 damage. Ptrs may not have the pen of shrek, but it fires 5 times faster from 3 rifles and 5 more range, for every dual Shrek volley.

    Shrek can reliably pen med tanks but it fires much slower and less accurate when you move your med tanks.

    So down to rng, your ptrs or shrek can deal similar victorys to med tank. Shrek is working as well as ptrs.

    Satchel charges on other hand, needs to relook at, besides 100% pen with 340 damages, it totally remove tanks from battle. Sure it cost ammo, but how many satchel you really need, a good one or two is enough to turn the tide.

    I propose satchel charges to only main gun destroy and NOT engine damage. Consider Wehr repair costs are expensive!
  • #11
    1 month ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,719
    > @mrgame2 said:
    > Nonsense, shrek has been nerfed so much relic had to make it cheaper.
    >
    > You need 2 Shrek shot to connect to deal only 80 damage. Ptrs may not have the pen of shrek, but it fires 5 times faster from 3 rifles and 5 more range, for every dual Shrek volley.
    >
    > Shrek can reliably pen med tanks but it fires much slower and less accurate when you move your med tanks.
    >
    > So down to rng, your ptrs or shrek can deal similar victorys to med tank. Shrek is working as well as ptrs.
    >
    > Satchel charges on other hand, needs to relook at, besides 100% pen with 340 damages, it totally remove tanks from battle. Sure it cost ammo, but how many satchel you really need, a good one or two is enough to turn the tide.
    >
    > I propose satchel charges to only main gun destroy and NOT engine damage. Consider Wehr repair costs are expensive!

    Shrek deals 120 damage each and 80 on a bounce so I think you need to check your numbers there champ. If they hit they are GUARANTEED to pen all stock mediums they face and deal 120 damage, if they hit and bounce they do as much damage as a zook.

    Also ptrs shoots faster but has a long initial aim time meaning they can't chase. Even the legendary pathing isn't enough to over come that. If your tanks falters for a moment panzergrens could have 1/3 of its health removed.

    The PTRS is the molotov of AT. It will hurt and even kill, if you sit there and let it. The Shrek is the bundled nade. You miss it in that split second and it fucking hurts.

    As for the satchel, it's necessary due to that long aim time we talked about. Else a tank could roll up on the penals and shove then around without taking enough damage to be vulnerable to another snare. Meanwhile closing on a pgren squad could knock off 1/3 your tanks health.

    AT penals are a deterrent. They are defenseive not aggressive AT. my only gripe is that the SVT into ptrs isn't as much of a setback as it should be and I'd see the PTRS and svt as separate packages.
  • #12
    1 month ago
    Patrol_OmegaPatrol_Om… Posts: 136

    1) Take 2 units with Panzerschrecks equipped and 2 units with Ptrs equipped and test them against light to medium tanks and you will realize how huge the advantage is for the Axis side.

    2) Upgrading a unit with Ptrs means that they literally become useless against infantry, so you are proposing me to upgrade 3 Penal Battalions with that? So I would require to recruit another 3 Penals to fight infantry back?

    3) Nerfing engine damage from Satchels that have to be thrown so close to an enemy tank? Should I talk about how any Axis infantry with anti-tank abilities already gets to disable engines from longer distances? Since Allied tanks overall have less armor they get critical shots as soon as they get hit, not that it happens so fast with Axis tanks since they can take more damage before getting critical damage.

    I wish I could believe your phrase "So down to rng, your ptrs or shrek can deal similar victorys to med tank. Shrek is working as well as ptrs"

    Ptrs have no were the same Ap that Panzerschrecks have. Is quite common having 1 or 2 squads of Stumpioneers going berserk chasing down tanks as far as to their base because they can demolish tanks with few shots, but when have you seen Ptrs units doing the same thing against your Panzer IV or better tanks?

  • #13
    1 month ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 682
    Satchel has very short range on a squad with no sprint, and requires the squad to be upgraded to be able to use it.
    If we nerf the satchel wich is very hard to use. The bloody teller needs to not one shot all lights. Wich is very easy to use in contrast to the at satchel. It should leave lights with half hp minimum.

    Wher has lots of smoke in pzr tactician for every vehicle in doctrines. Wich negates a lot of damage. And increasing the already higher micro for the allied player. This balances out the repairs mostly imo.

    The shreck is much more reliable on a squishier squad. The ptrs is less reliable on a tougher squad. This is a good exemple of balance imo.
  • #14
    1 month ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited March 19
    Yes you are right, shrek make 120 damage, which is same as ptrs squad too. The point is both can make victory over med tanks. You cant blob shrek and chase tanks now a meta, shrek has long reload and need to fire stationary.

    Have you try close in with t34 or sherman or cromwell or comet after pg fired their volley, you see the pg all busy trying to move from the crush and they cannot fire the next reloaded shots because of stationary requirements.

    So the point against shrek when ptrs is changed so much equally, is null. I reject suggestions that shrek is op, nonsense.

    Btw ptrs deal more infantry damages than shrek. So you lose more upgrading to Shrek than ptrs. Point again invalid.

    Main gun destroy is enough deterrent to take out a tank from battle for a long time. Engine damage with -340 hp is an excuse to kill axis tanks so much easier.
  • #15
    1 month ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 682
    > @mrgame2 said:
    > Yes you are right, shrek make 120 damage, which is same as ptrs squad too. The point is both can make victory over med tanks. You cant blob shrek and chase tanks now a meta, shrek has long reload and need to fire stationary.
    >
    > Have you try close in with t34 or sherman or cromwell or comet after pg fired their volley, you see the pg all busy trying to move from the crush and they cannot fire the next reloaded shots because of stationary requirements.
    >
    > So the point against shrek when ptrs is changed so much equally, is null. I reject suggestions that shrek is op, nonsense.
    >
    > Btw ptrs deal more infantry damages than shrek. So you lose more upgrading to Shrek than ptrs. Point again invalid.
    >
    > Main gun destroy is enough deterrent to take out a tank from battle for a long time. Engine damage with -340 hp is an excuse to kill axis tanks so much easier.

    Ptrs has longer aim time also need to fire stationary. Ptrs do their damage over time. Kiting is more effective and rewarding vs ptrs. Shreck does all damage in one shot. Kiting is less rewarding and the need pull back completly is more prevelant vs shreck.
    Btw i never said shreck is op.

    Close in with t34 bam 2x shreck connect its near half health. Any follow up and the t34 is dead.
    Do this with a panzer vs ptrs penals with no at satchel. Penals will be decimated because of the long aim time and being pushed around. It may suffer a sliffer of damage. Even if you have a at gun backing up the panels the panzer will escape period. That is why the at satchel excists to deter pushing around the penals almost completly negating their damage.

    Because ptrs do damage over time and thus are more suceptible to kiting is why its okay they do more vs inf. Shreck does better vs armour. Again balance achieved.

    The very short range and requiering an upgrade to even use the at satchel is why its made to punish its target so hard. Penals have no sprint so If your panzer got stuck with at satchel it already had engine damage or you got outplayed.
    A nerf to the damage of the at satchels because its an eady kill means the teller should not be able to one shot lights, because its the easiest lowest micro kill in the game for only 50 muni.

    That said a price increase per use for the at satchel would not hurt.
  • #16
    1 month ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited March 19

    Disagree 100%. Shrek also need upgrade. Shrek takes 100muni and at T2, ptrs takes only 60muni at T1, unlocks AT satchel fyi. So you get to use ptrs, at satchel and vet up earlier. Pg do not have at satchel.

    Pg is also suspectible to kiting because of shrek stationary reload times. Pg gren without shrek upgrade also died to T34.

    At satchel can deter by destorying main gun, which is fair.
    Destroy engine and -340hp is 99% death of P4 and all Axis med tanks. Not fair.

    Even now, two Penal squads with 90muni AT satchels against Panther, is more deadly than 2 shreks against KV tanks, because shrek can miss and dont pen Soviet heavies as easy. At satchels dont care Panther or Tiger or Elefant armor....

    Wehr is faction that needs to pro-active in attacking because of buffed TD now. So make no sense they have to also deal with AT satchel snares.

    So the tables are very fair between Wehr and Sov AT infantry, with AT satchel over performing with the snare. Shrek is more expensive than Ptrs even if they deal similar HP damages, with stronger penetration but depending on case by case skirmish.

    Removing snare and replace with gun damage will make fairer engagements between Wehr and strongest faction now, Soviet.

  • #17
    1 month ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited March 19

    btw teller mines are so easy counter with 30muni mine sweep....putting teller mines is some luck, at satchel is pure vehicle entry denial.

    teller mines need to 1 shot allies light vehicles tanks because they are so fast and deadlier than scout car or flak or luch. And Shrek miss them often, Pg too slow to chase them, Faust needs line of sight and longest snare animations...

    Until T70 dont splash kill stationary grens or USF armor car dont equip with 50cal or Aec dont have strong armor and main gun that kill stug or damaged p4...teller mine damage is needed.

    Besides Allies have access to mines snare...but AT satchels high 100% damage is not available. The goliath is a very micro skill units. Fact is, Axis especially Wehr needs more micro skills today.

  • #18
    1 month ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 254

    I finally know how to balance this game

    • Remove T70
    • Remove Allied snare
    • Remove 60range TD
    • Remove Allied heavy
    • Remove Allied from the game
  • #19
    1 month ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited March 19

    What no?
    Dont put words into me.
    I simply suggest replace At satchel snare with gun destory.
    A fair play which still remove Axis tank from the battle for some time, instead of a quick 1-2 death which against the Qol objective and the game design of back and forth.

    You should suggest newbie TS stop starting threads with bad suggestion like this, like the pzhq and like all her recent ones. Instead.

  • #20
    1 month ago
    Patrol_OmegaPatrol_Om… Posts: 136

    @mrgame2

    I don't understand why do you even care about trying to deny how easy and high burst damage Panzershrecks are right now. Now you used tricky words, putting as an example of them dealing low damage against KV tanks, which are amongst Soviet most expensive and doctrinal tanks and therefore barely seen in combat.

    But I will settle an example of 2 Panzerschrecks being more than enough to break Soviets standard tanks, being them a
    T-70, SU-75, T-3475, SU-85 or even a doctrinal T-3485mm. Not to mention the best short reload time AT-gun in the game on the Axis side (with cammo included), along with Axis already better medium tank armor and higher deflection values.

    Panzerschrecks simply require a range and accuracy nerf, so they can keep their high burst damage, resulting in an almost instant kill! if that is what worries you about.

    Btw Penals require spending ammo on the upgrade (leaving them bad against infantry) and once again ammo for using the satchel against tanks. There is nothing to talk about it as it is quite fair, you just need to be cautious with your ammo so you can actually use them during battles.

    Finally, quoting your suggestion: "I simply suggest replace At satchel snare with gun destroy" Axis already have Blitzkrieg and smoke for tanks. Getting engine damage on an axis tank is almost a miracle.

    Why don't you better suggest replacing the T-3475 and T-3485 gun getting destroyed after using their ramming ability for a reload increase time instead? After all, they have lower Pen, damage, reload time and armor values, than their Panzer counterparts.

  • #21
    1 month ago
    Schoki_JaegerSchoki_Ja… Posts: 24
    edited March 19

    I just wanted to throw in there that in the recent time i played there are much more players who spam Panzergrenadiere upgraded with Panzerschrecks(3xGrens = 6xSchrecks ~5xSchrecks will deal damage) and a blob of that size is enougth to reliably kill most taks of the allied.

    The thinking that the reload time, range or costs is compensaiting for the high damage potential is nonsense. In most senarios(where a blob of that kind is being used) the blob is creeping around a corner where you cant see them at first and as soon as they apprear in front of most tanks, its over for it because the damage is enought to kill the tank in the first burst(~5 Schreck hits).
    And the cost is probably compensated as soon as the first tank of the enemy is dead.

    In contrast, the Bazooka costs also 50 Mun is way way worse than the Panzerschreck and in addition you have to unlock the weapon rack at the USF base.

    And the overal performance of the Raketenwerfer(OKW) has a similar problem: camoflage, retreat, building, fast fire rate, cheap, easy accesseble, ...

    Where is the logic behind it, please explain!

    And i got the feeling that @mrgame2 has never or only rarely played Allies ?

  • #22
    1 month ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,719
    edited March 19
    @mrgame2 straight up you need to stop talking out your ass. nothing in game requires stationary to reload. The Shrek comes later and is more expensive because it's more effective.

    As for the satchel busting up a panther.... Don't get in range? Both axis factions have mgs in T0 so controlling infantry is always an option. Additionally 90 on top of the 120mu in strictly AT should be a threat... Just saying. You could call in most off maps with that investment.

    Again, I'd rather penals start with nagants and pay for either the SVT or the PTRS to make it more of a decision and cut the AI when upgraded to AT but outside that there isn't anything wrong with the design behind the PTRS package
  • #23
    1 month ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    Yes Shrek is more effective in giving burst damage but both ptrs and shrek are close enough to stop med tanks and below. Im only telling TS assumption is wrong.

    Besides wehr dont have arty that does -340 and engine damage for 45muni. Maybe you thinking of allies. ;)

    The point of at satchel is overpowering. A gun destroy is more appropriate. You can avoid as much as you can avoid teller mines. But imagine if teller mines can move and have contact radius! Really is more a qol fix.
  • #24
    1 month ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,719
    The crit isn't to stop it shooting its to stop it pushing the infantry.it fills that role. It does the appropriate thing to do the job its intended to do. Destroying the gun still allows it to push the infantry, which is what the satchel is there to prevent so no, gun crit wouldn't be more appropriate.
  • #25
    1 month ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 254
    edited March 20

    -Teller mine -480hp and destroy a T70 (back then it destroy a Jackson) for 60muni, but it can be countered by minesweeper
    -Sachel -320hp and damage engine for 75ammo upgrade & another 45ammo, but it can not be countered by stay away from Penal more than 5meter

    Like come on, most tank fire range is 40m, Panther Puma is 50m, is that really hard to stay away more than 5meter from Penal? Sachel range is 5meter.
    If the next patch crushing Penal cause the Sachel explode (0meter sachel) you will complain it anyway.

  • #26
    1 month ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    Disagree dark, everyone know even upgraded axis pintle is useless against 5-6 man infantry.
    Unless its changed to dskha or 50cal.
    Destory engine is to make easy kill and not to stop infantry push.
    But if destroy main gun, it does stop tank push but at same time dont over punish with only a 45muni throw, which is the point for tank counter, no?
  • #27
    1 month ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,260
    > @mrgame2 said:
    > Yes you are right, shrek make 120 damage, which is same as ptrs squad too.

    Ptrs do 40 damage to vehicles. You would need 3 penetrating hits from a ptrs in order to equal 1 penetrating hit from a shreck.

    Both of these weapons are fine, and neither should be looked at without also looking at the squad that equips them. Shrecks are powerful, but are equipped on squads that can be sent back to base with 1 well-placed tank shell (might even get wiped)

    Ptrs are on sturdier squads, ALL of which have snares (in some form). Hence why their AT damage is a slower creep compared to shrecks
  • #28
    1 month ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    Ptrs do have 3 times the rof, so that also equals out. Like i say shrek and ptrs are in good place, unlike TS calling for nerf to only shrek.
  • #29
    1 month ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 254
    edited March 20

    3Ptrs x 40 = 120dmg
    2Shreck x 120 = 240dmg

    Equals?

  • #30
    1 month ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,719
    > @mrgame2 said:
    > Disagree dark, everyone know even upgraded axis pintle is useless against 5-6 man infantry.
    > Unless its changed to dskha or 50cal.
    > Destory engine is to make easy kill and not to stop infantry push.
    > But if destroy main gun, it does stop tank push but at same time dont over punish with only a 45muni throw, which is the point for tank counter, no?

    Push. Not punish. The PTRS aim time means shoving the squad with the tank (or making them move automatically) means there is no chance they can deal any damage. Trying to push a Shrek, zook or piat squad can work, but if they get half a second unmolested they will fire making the risk greater.

    The satchels primary role isn't to "disable" the tank but threaten destroying it should the enemy attempt to exploit the aim time.
    A destroyed gun can still push, a busted engine cannot. That's its purpose.

    I don't think there's anything wrong with Shreks for the record just trying to enlighten you as to why the satchel functions as it does and how that related directly to the squads weapon.
  • #31
    1 month ago
    Schoki_JaegerSchoki_Ja… Posts: 24
    edited March 20
    The problem Allies have is at the moment is that even when we say ptrs, bazooka and piat do the same dmg as schrecks they still bounce a lot and in bazooka and piat szenario hit in about 50 percent of the shots.

    And the second problem is that many of axis tanks are way more armored than the most allies tanks so a comparison between allied handheld at and panzerschrecks on the same tank(sherman, t34, cromwell) is just wrong because of corse are the ptrs going to do bether than against a panther! So do a comparison yourselve between a squad panzergrenadiers with panzerschrecks and a squad penals with both scatchel and ptrs, you will see the panzerschreck is going to kill the panther with only some misses. The penals tho, even if all shots hit most of them simply bounce(use also maxrage for the test) so the scatchel is the only reliably way to deal dmg in this case but you have to get within 5m of the tank witch is rather difficult when german players have a brain and use mg cover, brumbär or the in my opinion a bit overperforming grenadiere and volks at 3 or more stars.

    And i am playing both fraktions on a frequent base and this is what i observed!
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