Allies tanks need a rear armour nerf or...



  • #32
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    Well is2 rear is 140, so its front should be 280, give it 300, and not 375. Panther shots bounce at 375. The other turreted wehr tank, p4, bounces is2 front and rear.
  • #33
    2 years ago
    Basically, you want alies heaviest doctrinal tank to be trash with 300 front armour.
    The point is IS 2 rear armour has already been lower than it supposed to be, if compare to it's front.
  • #34
    2 years ago
    Tank been given front armor value then it's side is adjust accordingly, not the other way.
  • #35
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    Lol no. 190 rear armor is2 is never possible, breaks the game completely. Its the front armor still enjoying the 375 values after allies Td buff and wehr armor nerf. Someone at relic missed this.

    Lets be honest here, if you play allies regularly, you know the longer a match goes, the less likely you will lose, there is no late game for wehr, its current unit composition is already broken for any comeback, nevermind if they started strongly and holding resources.
  • #36
    2 years ago
    But In reality, IS 2 have 140 rear, right ? That mean it has been tone down with purpose from the supposed to be 190 following basic formula of other tank. Relic dont miss this.
  • #37
    2 years ago
    Wher have a balance system of unit that support each other very well and they dont have to come back from anything if doing right from the beginning.

    To be honest, wher have trong stat and remain decent strong until late. How many 2v2 game you actually play that late longer than 1 hr, for me, not much.
  • #38
    2 years ago
    many game i played is lost due to axis late game LEFH 18 spam, combined with super heavy TD and rocket arty locked down VP, despite how good my early was.

    Many time, i see a bunch of 3 panzer grenadier deleted a medium tank, or bring a churchill down to 50% HP in slavo of 6 pscheck shoot.

    Many time, my vet 3, fully upgrade tommy got wipe out while capping by panzerwefer, despite being 5 man.

    Many time, a panther charge straight in to may base looking for sexton and i couldn't do anything while my churchill is too slow and i cant afford a churchill and a firefly at the same time my opponent got 2 panther. Back then, when brit still dont have HEAT nade, stopping a couple of panther is close to impossible.
  • #39
    2 years ago
    God forbid that a end tier non doc unit shots should bounce of off a very expensive doctrinal unit ever. Oh the horror. Jagd tiger and elephant will pen it no problem.

    While the panther will pen all other allied tanks reliably and can bounce off quite a few rounds it self.

    The p4 is actualy a generalist tank. It does a good job in both AI and AT but excels at neither.

    The is2,s primary use is its tankyness. Something soviet vehicles lack non doc. Thats why it is slow has very low rof and is so inaccurate.
  • #40
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    Pen is one thing, accuracy is another. Panther needs to move, and when it moves, it misses half the time. Why do i need repeating? Allies TD have the benefit of camping out the VP. Wehr is terrible the later the game. Vetted allies infantry blob destory vetted Wehr to recover VP. Panther takes up too much resource when its performance now is poor, it loses 2 pop, meaning even less infantry presence.

    Hell Soviet Zisgun can auto rapid fire to clear mg bunker, another remnants that is now major disadvantage.

    There is unbalance now. Elefant means locking into a doc, while allies non-doc infantry and vehicle are better now than Wehr. They have the ease of choice to take any other doc, and Is2 + stumavik is a damn good doc. Kv8, Kv2, Isu, so many choices.

    Lets be honest, when you see your opponent is wehr, im sure you rejoice and got all the order and tactics ready. So when will you guys admit unit balance and not shifting to micro and l2p issues? We have the proof since the 2v2 championship, we have ongoing casts, we have acutal in game experiences. There is all clear to the Relic patchers, it is up to them to step aside from the ego and try to fix Wehr faction.

  • #41
    2 years ago
    > @mrgame2 said:
    > Well is2 rear is 140, so its front should be 280, give it 300, and not 375. Panther shots bounce at 375. The other turreted wehr tank, p4, bounces is2 front and rear.

    The rear armour is taken from the established front armour not the other way around. You are asking for allied tanks to have lower rear armour and that is something relic has already don't when the rear values proved too much with the regular formula.
  • #42
    2 years ago
    When i see my opponent is wher, i prepare for early game Mg42+mortar spam, mid game camping bunker+pak wall, p4 spam, late game panther spam, super heavy TD camping vp + panzerwefer wipe cap.

    Just play alies for a dozens of match them come back to wher. Let see can you break wher late game by yourself. If you can, post a replay about you beat the crap out of a wher.

    Highly recommend you play as Brit.

    Your experience with wher is just a tini bit of the picture that you cant cover.
  • #43
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    What? No? Mg spam is not viable for wehr. Only mg spam possible is the maxim because of its near instant pack up time and high dps. Most Wehr players don't get mortar unless in urban maps and only later on in the matches. Spamming mg42 is asking for easy decrew by allies light vehicles or faster close range infantry.

    Likewise bunkers only come in much later if excess resources and a larger map. Most players can't camp down with elefant, that is if they even choose that doc which is not suitable for build up maps. Panzerwafer dont wipe sqaud, no not at all, unless you get real close and lucky! Imo you are all wrong here
  • #44
    2 years ago
    Mg42 = instant suppress, while mortal deal the damge. It is a valid strat against brit due to their lack of numbers and indirect. Lead to early light vehicle for axis.

    Not building mortar is a mistake, you leave gren without mortar support and yet asking why they lost to Infantry section? As once said, wher is a system of mutual support unit, you take away a part, it wont work.

    Maintain large control map or not, axis light always come early than alies and i do believe flame HT wipe vicker quicker than AEC wipe MG 42, not to mention mg42 Ap round.

    One more thing i do believe is that All alies close range DPS are doctrinal, unless you are talking about royal engineer or vehicles crew since they are two only alies stock unit equipped with sub machine gun. Each US officer have ONE thompson and cost fuel. Meanwhile, both axis have stock units with STG44.

    Panzerwefer pin down squad while they are capping, leading to easily wipe. And it help lock down VP, prevent capping.
  • #45
    2 years ago

    The issue with the HT flame upgrade, it is too costy for a vehicle dont does not last long. Sure, it has deadly firepower but how long before it gets damaged heavily by small arms, anti tank weapons. I think for it cost 100 ammo (so much for a light vehicle), should get slight armour upgrade and some additional health like the USF M20 Utility Car (its upgrade costing less 50-60 ammo i think, it performance being already good by default) so that it can last longer to mid game at least. Do you it deserves some compensation for its price? If not for armour upgrade than definitely decrease its price to around 50-60 ammo.

    Wehrmacht is a faction that is heavily dependant on ammo as most base upgrades are minimal 60 ammo, tank machine gun upgrades vary from 45 ammo and above. Mostly 60 ammo, really costy especially abilities that cost 25-45 ammo. As Wehr you have to really consider you actions and the abilities used.

    USF is costy when it comes to weapon upgrades but their Rifleman by default excel short - medium range when Grenadiers mostly long range, 5 guys vs 4 guys, quite some differences there. It is more often in engagement that they get close to mostly short-mid range early game, later more medium and long range. This kinda gives allies the upper hand with its base units especially its durability. For a Wehr player, in order to last, has to buy support weapons such as MG42 and Mortar in order to counter their superior early game base weapons m1 garand, great short-medium range. Later the game shifts in a more different requirement, depending on what you are focusing on getting.

    @mrgame2 said:
    What? No? Mg spam is not viable for wehr. Only mg spam possible is the maxim because of its near instant pack up time and high dps. Most Wehr players don't get mortar unless in urban maps and only later on in the matches. Spamming mg42 is asking for easy decrew by allies light vehicles or faster close range infantry.

    Likewise bunkers only come in much later if excess resources and a larger map. Most players can't camp down with elefant, that is if they even choose that doc which is not suitable for build up maps. Panzerwafer dont wipe sqaud, no not at all, unless you get real close and lucky! Imo you are all wrong here

    He makes a point on the fact that Maxim does have better damage than MG42 although maxims suppression is worse (in game it is more important to gain kills to drain manpower and Wehrmacht Grenadier has only 4 units causing early retreats), in addition it has maxim has 6 guys making it very difficult to counter if not nearly impossible. Mortars are the ideal way of countering them but it is way easier to counter MG42 due to its weak survivability and longer deploy time. Maxim you can just click anywhere and it already starts moving and even better at retreating, deploying weapon however takes 3 sec like any other MG. It is in my opinion has more upsides than downsides, arc range limited but it is made up for its time to undeploy.

    If you have 2 to 3 Maxim supporting each other, it is nearly impossible. Flanks are difficult with infantry thus forcing axis to use vehicles which can easily then be countered with Anti-tank gun or Penals with PTRS.

    Wehrmacht is definitely a faction that is heavily reliant on support weapons. If germans has 120mm mortar like the Russians has, it would definitely be more ideal for them to have it against bigger squads (6 man soviet squads) than for a 4 man axis squad, it is quite OP because it has higher damage, AOE, better Survivability 5 guys, and only requires one guy to drag the mortar. Axis support weapons are very weak in terms of survivability, thus if you are being flanked, you have to immediately press retreat otherwise you will lose. For Soviets however, it is more forgiving, can take more time to respond than axis. An team weapon lost by axis in the beginning determines the whole game, it would become easy win for Soviets.

    I feel that if Soviets capture axis team weapons, it should only be limited to 4 man like axis to give them at least an opportunity to retrieve it back. As it stands now, Soviets always get an upper hand when it comes down to support weapons. It is easier to lose MG42 squad compared to Maxim. An team weapon lost to the enemy will definitely change the whole course of the game for good.

    Maybe axis mortars should get better reload speed because every axis mortar is weaker than allies overall, from 6 seconds to at least 4 or 5. Allied snipers can easily counter German support weapons. Wehr sniper countering russians feels like a complete waste of time but with other factions, it does better. I think Soviet should get some nerfs for team weapons to compensate or like I said with axis mortar to decrease its reload time. I think it is definitely that something that needs changes because it is unbalanced. USF and UKF also are limited to 4 man team weapons but when it comes to mortars, it has deadlier firepower than axis overall.

    So does it deserve some adjustments and changes in order to make it more fair play? I definitely have difficult time myself against a Soviet who relies heavily on support weapons.

  • #46
    2 years ago
    A well microd flame halftrack is devistating no durability increase needed. Keep in mind that it often hits the field before there is a surplus of AT so being damaged by small arms keeps it from freely marauding as it'll need a top on now and again
  • #47
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    Well said balanced gamer. I already posted about wehr weapon teams are at disadvantages now after all the balancing. Allies weapons teams are tweaked off wehr base faction, just that the increase/decrease attributes are more useful for allies unit composition, search my post history for my proof and recommendations to rebalance wehr again.
  • #48
    2 years ago
    DarjeelingMK7Darjeelin… Posts: 245
    edited February 2019
    Balanced gamer have some point in maxim but spamming maxim meaning use conscript as main infantry and this doesn't scale late game, no matter what. And besides Soviet, US and Brit team weapons are 4 man and both axis have close range DPS at stock.

    You talking about unit composition but by far it of wher is the most complete package. You have everything from decent main infantry, to Mg, to mortar, to AT gun, all easily access without side tech or sacrifice anything.

    Lock at other factions.
    Ukf have to trade their mobility and clumps up in order to get indirect fire support.

    Sov have to use crap mainline infantry if want to get team weapons.

    Usf used to chose between Mg or AT gun only. After the revamp, they still have to field 2 officer of total 70 fuel while unlock no light vehicle, if want both MG and AT.
  • #49
    2 years ago

    DarjeelingMK7 definitely made some points about Unit composition, wehr access and conscripts.

    Conscripts although it is weak, it excels better at closer ranges and it is definitely the best unit (same price as grenadier) to flank MG42. You have sprint ability, which is really good therefore makes it way easier to flank. Another would be Molotov (although you have purchase it from base, but it is really good against stationary units, espeically upon impact). You can even merge units with it , support weapons, elite units and the best part is, you save manpower. You merge Shocks, and the only thing you have to resupply then is for conscripts. SU has quite some upsides.

    It is harder for grenadier to counter maxim in comparison, it has rifle greande, good range which sacrifices damage, problems is sometimes maxim units are too spread out that the rifle grenade can only harm around 1-2 sometimes 3 units at most. Historically, Axis did not really have rifle grenades especially due to the fact it was unreliable. I think I would personally prefer (and for historical purposes) have a Steilhandgranate as a replacement, what Panzerfusiliers has (being a bit more historically accurate in terms of usage grenades), and it is better. Rifle grenade personally is annoying because you have to keep distance to enemy, it is predictable (same goes for molotov) but it does not do great damage unless clumped (which a good player would not do).

    Grenadier does not have a proper capabilities against Maxims only, other factions better but definitely not against SU.

    mrgame2 also mentioned the fact that some team weapons has been nerfed, which is true. Wehr mortar (not the worst but definitely worse than other factions) has same reload speed, I do not how accurate it is but it is nothing compared to other mortars which can sometimes squad wipe depending on much health the has. Like SU 120mm and the USF M1 75mm Pack Howitzer, those are deadly and british mortar emplacement if you include as a mortar. Leig 18 is weak and vulnerable and I think it performs worse than Wehrmacht mortar in terms of accuracy and damage. I personally think so.

    OKW in my opinion has the worst support weapons in game except Raketenewerfer which can shine at times, but its range is limited thus causing a lot of missed opportunities to finish off vehicles that are escaping. MG32 takes longer to supress than MG43 to suppress (better than Maxim in suppression but Maxim is better than MG32 overall in my opinion. Suppression is not everything), does the worst damage, 4 man survivability, same range width as MG42. There is no upsides MG32 especially when it comes later, same goes for Leig 18. I personally think MG32 is the worst compared to USF MG which does greater damage, suppression ok, arc range limited but is something I would pick over than MG32. I do not know about the deploy time for USF HMG that well but it does better in terms of damage and firepower than MG32.

    Wehr is better in terms of support weapons than OKW overall. The changes I personally think affected OKW and Wehr the most, mortars mainly since the axis are overall outmatched and all are set to shoot every 6 seconds. Good but not that good.

  • #50
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    Armor was rebalanced on problematic vehicles.

    What is left is a massive dose of L2P.

  • #51
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited March 2019

    Disagree. Since Axis rear armor nerf, Allies instant snares, buffed range TD and standardised damages.

    There is no reason why Allies heavies retain rear armor that can only be reliably pierced by inaccurate Panther while their guns reliably pierce back Panther rear-side armor for 120-160hp. How many panthers can Axis afford?

    Ridiculous heavy flamer tanks with lower pop costs, walk in to clear ATG.
    Ridiculouse 1600 HP tanks with 180 rear armor, and rotate accelerate faster than panther
    375 frontal armor tank which rotate faster than panther.

    These are problematic for sure.

  • #52
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    Another good game from tightrope.
    Soviet kv tanks and popcap were too strong against wehr and the tiger. Wehr definitely need more AT to deal with Soviet damage sponges

    Jove is top player, no offense to the soviet player, but if he was up against another wehr player, the game could be over sooner. Jove made a good fight despite the late game wehr disadvantage.
  • #53
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    I like to add the concept of rear armour is misleading. Tanks armor is coh2 is split in half only. So all the axis armor rear nerf have a much bigger impact than the word suggest. Basically half the tanks can or cannot be reliably pen. Hence allies strong rear armor AND high hp is a double trouble
  • #54
    2 years ago

    It is always impossible to counter Churchill with Panther at times if you are against a good or great player. Churchill is a great tank that can combat PanzerIV, surely better than KV1, does great against infantry.

    Whenever I try using the Panther to combat Churchill, it is always supported with Anti Tank Guns, which penetrates Panther frequently making it nearly impossible to counter a tank like Churchill. It is also quite fast, which is quite a surprise since it is a heavy tank is it not?

    Panther can definitely kill Churchill, but takes too long, because of the health and its great armour. It also has smoke, and something else that reduces the damage taken, I think that comes without doctrine if I am not mistaken. Churchill just soaks a lot of shots, giving more than enough time for them to get support and advance. Pak40 and Raketenwerfer are just useless against it. Pak40 is better but Raketenwerfer has no chance

  • #55
    2 years ago

    Churchill tank is NOT fast. It is one of the slowest tanks in the game.

  • #56
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    Im sure bg was speaking of Churchill rotation and representing its back armor. That speed is as fast as p4.

    Imo Churchill 16 pop cap is too little for it survivability and dealing same 160 damage per hit.

    I also think rear armor term needs to be rename something more appropriate. It is not just the tank backside!
  • #57
    2 years ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 915
    edited March 2019

    That speed is as fast as p4.


    T34 90fuel damage is 160
    Stug 90fuel damage is 160
    SU85 130fuel damage is 160
    Jackson 140fuel damage is 160
    Jadpz 130fuel damage is 160
    KV1 155fuel damage is 160
    Pz4 120fuel damage is 160
    Panther 180fuel damage is 160
    Comet 180 fuel damage is 160
    Churchill damage should not be 160

    Why are you trying so hard..that I can make a book of your requiring nerf on Allied

  • #58
    2 years ago
    Churchill gun can pen panther front? NO
    Panther can pen churchill front? YES.
    Churchill can flank panther? NO
    Panther can flank churchill? Yes, but DOESN'T HAVE TO.

    "...Whenever I try using the Panther to combat Churchill, it is always supported with Anti Tank Guns..."
    That is combined arm, man, please ? Where is your pak, or your army only consists of panther?

    Look like churchill tech should lockout 6pdr AT gun then.
  • #59
    2 years ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 915
    edited March 2019

    Darjee: I dont use Pak to support Panther, thats mean you should not use 6pd to support Churchill.
    That is fair play, please?

  • #60
    2 years ago
    So civilized C3 :v
  • #61
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited March 2019
    If you look at Churchill accelerate and rotate, it is damn fast for damage sponge, as fast/faster than p4. Meaning its very good to reposition itself!

    Can a panther reliably pen Churchill front? Depend on range, not a 100%. Panther have to flank it to hit it 9 good times!
    Can Churchill pen panther, again depend if panther side is exposed, yes if so!
    Again i restate, "rear" armor sound understated, it is really 50% of the hit box.
    Again standardised 160 damage is fine but we need to be careful of other areas such as damage sponges becomes stronger than intended.

    So its clear allies armor is troubling.

    As proven by the stats, popcap and unit composition makes wehr weakest faction now. Some changes is a must
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