(OKW) Luchs under-performing for its cost.

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Comments

  • #92
    8 months ago
    Balanced_GamerBalanced_… Posts: 200

    @Schoki_Jaeger said:
    you cant deal with a T70 as OKW?!?
    just built the best PAK in game, the Raketenwerfer 43, maybe even 2 and camo them, make an ambush and because the Raketen has such a good reload you can shoot 4 times at the t70(need 3 hits) when in the right angle !

    Raketenwerfer 43 is not that great, its good but not the best. It becomes the worst AT late game to support against heavy tanks especially medium. I usually get 1, max 2 if needed but I hate to rely on it. Reload is same as any other but has the worst penetration of them all, cant even really penetrate Comet in comparison to Pak40 which I personally think is better.

    It is not about Luchs able to be dealing with T70 alone or single-handedly, I do not expect it to, that is not what I want it to do. Just needs to do somewhat better against infantry, somewhere around T70 or better. T70 is more of a generalist that is better than specialist Luchs in terms of AI. The only difference is 10 fuel, does not mean Luchs should do worse than T70 in terms of AI. Since it is a specialist, it should do somewhat at least as good or better against Infantry.

    T70 can recon for further sight range (cant shoot) but can cap points which serves more purpose than Luchs which has camo only. Luchs Camo has to serve a bit more purpose, some say it does but who uses it and why. It would make sense to use it more if it had an accuracy boost for a short period (like 5 seconds max) ambushing out of camo.

    For me, that is the least of fixes I expect in order for it to do better. Currently, it does not have that kick for its price. Wehr scout car performs similarly to Luchs which is a joke for the huge different prices. T70 is better overall, harasses enemies better and decap points. Luchs is just a ghost, has no real effect, and it is not like you have to get 10 meters in order to spot it. It is like 20 meters which is not that great of a camo. It should at least be able to ambush, to put it into more affect. Otherwise, change it to the way T70 recon mode, so Luchs can serve more purpose and cap points. That is more useful.

  • #93
    8 months ago

    to be totaly honest, for scouting you have the uhu, witch is btw way to OP at the moment( too cheep, too good)

    for AI you have already the best mainline infantry Volksgrenadiere(flame grenade, panzerfaust, StG, cheep,...) and to break throu the enemy lines the luchs is perfectly fine! I personaly like the luchs as it is the best ! He does the job, espascilly because it comes at ~minute 9, at this point the allies have little to non AT.

    If you give the Luchs a buff as well the overall already strong package becomes to strong! The luchs should stay as it is, there are MUCH more problems with the Stuart!

  • #94
    8 months ago
    Balanced_GamerBalanced_… Posts: 200

    Luchs needs some changes, I am not asking for major buffs, it has to improve slightly in terms of accuracy. Who on earth every uses surpressive ability when vet 5, it comes absolutely late. It is like an ability that is meant to never be used. Maybe that should come earlier because its camo ability has no real affect. I think it should come maybe when vet 1, to actually to put into effect rather than left in some corner to be forgotten. I use camo but I do not really see how that is really effective other than scouting which T70 is better at.

    It is ridiculous. Its accuracy is ok, T70 hits more frequently, that is the issue. It should also hit a bit more accurately against infantry, and I mean a bit more than it usually does. Nothing major and nothing too minor either.

    I use M1 Stuart and it is a great way of getting a vehicle early onto the field against OKW, comes earlier even more earlier than Luchs. If you compare carefully, its infantry firepower is more or less similar to that of Luchs. It has two abilities that actually serves a purpose. One Stun engine or stun crew (i think). They are pretty good at countering light tanks especially Puma, as a means to escape or buy time to get support. What is the issue with M1 Stuart by the way?

    Maybe I might have left something out. Personally I think it is ok, maybe increase its overall effectiveness against infantry and Luchs needs that too for being a specialist (one specific role only, should better than it currently is). You know you can try using that stun crew ability against infantry close to mid range, it is quite decent. It works for me at least. I do agree on the fact that these two vehicles need (neither too major or minor) adjustments against infantry.

    T70 is still better than these two for their similar prices and purposes.

  • #95
    8 months ago
    Balanced_GamerBalanced_… Posts: 200

    Here are my thoughts>

    1./ Just buff its accuracy slightly, it is so often that it does not do its job.

    OR

    Increase damage to 20, just to see how it will do

    2./ Make Supression ability come at vet 1 to make it more accessible than used like never when vet 5. It will not be OP if it were available vet 1. Nobody even knows how good or bad it is. Even then other vehicles who has surpression, can have it accessible after upgrade or even way earlier. This is the only vehicle that seems to be neglected in game.

    3./ Make it come slightly later if possible, make it cost like T70 to bring balance, to have the no "timing advantage". It is nonsense this idea because this makes this vehicle poorer over later games. It can not be the way it is now. It is underperforming in comparison to cheaper lighter vehicles against AI.

    I would seriously understand for its AI performance if it could combat tanks also, like T70 (better AI power than Luchs) or AEC (same AI power as Luchs) but it does not.

    I made a test a while ago,

    T70 vs Penal
    AEC vs Penal
    Luchs vs Penal
    Stuart vs Penal

    It was for the sake of the test, otherwise you would get different results if you tested with each different squad or unit.
    Luchs and AEC (AI terms were more or less similar/ the same). They were kept at mid-long range. Stuart, if I could remember correctly, performed worse than the rest.

    From best to worst
    1./ T70
    2./ AEC
    3./ Luchs
    4./ Stuart

    If you include M20 utility car (which is cheaper and lighter) it is below T70.

    If you test it yourself, you would be surprised to see that Luchs is just not as good in comparison. It is unbalanced since it has only one main role, infantry, yet it fails to exceed its expectations as a specialist.

    If you watch Propagandacast and OKW gameplay with Luchs, you can just tell from experience and in playing the game that it feels lackluster although pros use it. Reason being, they have to have a mobile unit, they do not have many other alternatives. They have to pick a choice that, it is in fact really not that much of a choice. They have to make do with it!!!

    OKW is vehicle Meta and it would be great if Luchs specifically got some adjustments since they do not have great AI vehicle choices. Buff Stuart also. Increase Price of AEC to T70's price. This will do everyone a favour hopefully. As it is, it can really be frustating, when taking 2 sometimes 3 clips and it does not kill, just damage. When adjusted accordingly, increase price similarly to T70. Currently, AEC or T70 is a preferable choice in many situations.

  • #96
    8 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 650

    AEC & Stuart should be compared to Puma & SU76, not Luch.

    This image show when Techs is upgraded, not when the units in tech come to the field

    Lets give class to them

    These are options to fix Luch and its effect
    1. Raise up tech price to make AEC Stuart come later than Luch will make Puma (who does better AT job) come too early for AEC Stuart
    2. Buff Luch fire power will make Luch too powerful to Soviet (you see how late T70 tech is)
    3. Lower Luch price 65 to 50fuel will make Luch too cost effective for USF AAHT
    4. If buff Luch to be as good as T70, Soviet Tier3 tech cost must be lower at least 40fuel. And that will make Soviet SU76 comes too early for Ost Stug
    I would say Luch currently is too weak because there is Puma (which is same class to SU76 & Stug) & Stuka (too OP for Kat & Pzwerf) come too early and is on the same tech as Luch.

    The game 1st designed between Soviet & Ost, there are mean to have time advantage. Also combine with rock/paper/scissor units.

    You have a Rock, then I get a Paper, and so you will have to get a Scissor to protect your Rock. Thats how the game works. There is noway to perfectly balance this game.

  • #97
    8 months ago
    Balanced_GamerBalanced_… Posts: 200

    Is it going to gain some accuracy buff adjustments? It does come just slightly earlier than T70 but does not mean that it should perform the way it currently does.

    During its time of arrival, the enemy can get access to AT already so therefore it should not be under performing for reasons that justify for the way it is. Watching videos of T70 and Luchs, it is quite obvious which is better in which situations. Even then, T70 seems more of a probable choice late game than Luchs, if you had to pick either of them against infantry specifically.

    Luchs is a specialist and T70 a generalist (since it combats light vehicles and infantry better) . Luchs should at least perform the way T70 is against infantry or better.

    OKW has hardly any proper AI vehicles that scales mid late game. Luchs should do better than it currently does.

    Luchs should be at least as good as T70 in just killing Infantry. It does worse currently. It really should not be a problem in buffing it a little.

    Also, suppress ability should come at Vet 3 instead. Vet 5 is ridiculous.

    I would personally not mind if Volks were changed and nerfed a little but Luchs does require some improvements.

    When I mentioned buff, it does not have to mean BIG, it need adjustments, that's what it needs.

    I hope this discussion took place for a reason but it seems that it would lead to nowhere.

  • #98
    8 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    Could try the idea of making it a bit better against cover with vet so it can still come earlier but also scale a bit better once yellow cover starts popping up everywhere.
  • #99
    7 months ago
    Balanced_GamerBalanced_… Posts: 200

    Are the devs looking into this. I hope so because it has discussed for a long period. I surely think changes are required for Luchs.

    Either buff its current accuracy, T70 can directly hit 1 to 2 man killing them instantly currently. Which is insane. I do not expect it to be this way but an increase in DPS is neccessary. It is only against infantry, which should not be a problem. It can not combat vehicles that well expect for the lightest vehicles, so it would make sense to buff its DPS even more.

    It has been so long, nothing is being said whether implementions or adjustments are going to take place. I believe FHT needs some changes also, currently is has been nerfed a bit much. Buffing its damage to the way it currently was to 20 would be good cuz its current timing makes it utterly vulnerable against all factions.

    These are my thoughts. They are not unbalanced. I have experienced this many occasions and through in depth thinking what is required. I hope you guys are listening.

  • #100
    7 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822

    they cant look into every single thing at the same time unfortunately, and tbh the slightly under performing luchs inst at the top of the list. i wouldnt even say its at the top of OKWs list. something so easily over tweaked would need to be more at the focus of the patch lest they get overbuffed, forgotten and then wreak havoc on balance and scare away ew players like JLI did.

  • #101
    7 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    > @Balanced_Gamer said:
    > Are the devs looking into this. I hope so because it has discussed for a long period. I surely think changes are required for Luchs.
    >
    > Either buff its current accuracy, T70 can directly hit 1 to 2 man killing them instantly currently.

    You need to stop comparing it to the t70. The t70 can't be built from the first tech building, and it's tech building is more expensive just by itself. The units themselves might be comparable, but one arrives earlier, so it can't be as strong. Even with the build delay it hits the field faster
  • #102
    7 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 650
    edited May 9

    @SkysTheLimit you dont have to explain anymore, I did it countless time.
    The 1st Luch requires 120 fuel. The 1st T70 requires 190-200 fuel. At that time Okw can build 2 Luch. I doubt 2 Luch do worse job than a T70

  • #103
    7 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 650

    Sorry, minus 20 starting fuel, it should be 170-180 fuel required.

  • #104
    7 months ago
    Balanced_GamerBalanced_… Posts: 200

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    > @Balanced_Gamer said:
    > Are the devs looking into this. I hope so because it has discussed for a long period. I surely think changes are required for Luchs.
    >
    > Either buff its current accuracy, T70 can directly hit 1 to 2 man killing them instantly currently.

    You need to stop comparing it to the t70. The t70 can't be built from the first tech building, and it's tech building is more expensive just by itself. The units themselves might be comparable, but one arrives earlier, so it can't be as strong. Even with the build delay it hits the field faster

    I am aware of its timing. The fact that I do not agree on is the fact that for similar prices, T70 remains better in both areas, AT and AI. Luchs in contrast DPS against infantry is worse.

    I personally do not mind T70 being overall better than the Luchs but what I do not agree on is the fact it is worse specifically against infantry which supposed to be its main role. Luchs is alreadly terrible against other vehicles. It should be exceptionally somewhat better against infantry than T70 for that price. Despite the minor price difference

    Timing is one factor, but price of the unit is another and its current specified role. That can not be ignored. Luchs role as you are aware is specifically against infantry only. T70 having excelled better in 2 areas. Luchs should be better in 1 area infantry. That is all that I am saying. It deserves some slight improvements and adjustments.

    I suggest either buffing its current accuracy or buff its main gun damage from 16 to 18. Either its DPS should be the same or better than T70 against Infantry only. It should remain however utterly vulnerable as it is in AT terms. AI needs some improvements.

    Timing is one thing but all the factions have the utility to counter Luchs, therefore a slight improvement on AI areas specifically should not be that big of an issue.

  • #105
    7 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    The importance of tech costs is shown in the Soviet lineup actually. For 20 fuel more than a T70 you get a t34.

    There is no reason for the luchs to be T70 levels of AI because of timing. A T70 coming earlier would be overbearing (we know this from the old Soviet industry) it could use a slight buff, perhaps more achievable vet would be a good direction since we never get to see its upper levels but T70 levels off the cuff would be nuts.
  • #106
    6 months ago
    Balanced_GamerBalanced_… Posts: 200

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    The importance of tech costs is shown in the Soviet lineup actually. For 20 fuel more than a T70 you get a t34.

    There is no reason for the luchs to be T70 levels of AI because of timing. A T70 coming earlier would be overbearing (we know this from the old Soviet industry) it could use a slight buff, perhaps more achievable vet would be a good direction since we never get to see its upper levels but T70 levels off the cuff would be nuts.

    I do agree that it requires a slight buff. Achieving vet faster is a good step since most OKW units achieve vet 3 slower than other factions units that achieve it faster.

    Luchs "suppress ability" should come vet 3. Vet 5 is still ridiculous. I never saw anyone ever use that ability. It needs only slight improvements accuracy I believe and to be looked through. That what it needs.

  • #107
    6 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    Yeah you can't compare costs of two units without also looking at the timing, for reasons armadillo stated. Timing is determined by cost, of both tech and the unit itself.

    I don't disagree that the luchs could use a slight buff, you just have to be VERY careful about it because it arrives so early. You can always increase it's cost and give it a more significant buff as well
  • #108
    6 months ago
    Balanced_GamerBalanced_… Posts: 200

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    Yeah you can't compare costs of two units without also looking at the timing, for reasons armadillo stated. Timing is determined by cost, of both tech and the unit itself.

    I don't disagree that the luchs could use a slight buff, you just have to be VERY careful about it because it arrives so early. You can always increase it's cost and give it a more significant buff as well

    I would not mind improving the costs if that helps increase Luchs performance slightly. Maybe just more increase in manpower cost. What do you suggest? I mean AEC for similar prices and slightly earlier timing than Luchs is quite a hard decision. AEC is definitely better than T70 and Sturat in terms of AT. It has similar AT performance to Puma.

    AEC is like Puma cost since both deal 120 AT damage, which is heck of a lot damage and on top stun ability which is insane strong. Both reasonably do well against infantry but AEC is slightly better at that while Puma has slight range advantage AT upper hand. Both AEC and PUMA should cost 80 fuel. That is my opinion. They come quite early.

    Puma kind of destroys Stuart and T70 and other light vehicles easily while AEC destroys all axis light vehicles easily potentially even Puma (vice versa for Puma destroying AEC). Puma and AEC are extremely alike. Both prices of them should increase. AEC costing the way it is, is somewhat unjust. Even both being 70 fuel. 80 fuel would be better for both.

    I think for making Luchs perform better against infantry. Maybe an increase in 50 manpower as a starter. That is my opinion. If it were fuel, than it should be then more potent against vehicles then which it is currently not at all. Start with manpower I believe.

    Following changes I believe, either buff accuracy or damage just slightly. Make "Suppress Ability" come Vet 3 (should have been that way, do not why they thought vet 5 was a good idea!). Fix Vet requirements since it is slow.

  • #109
    6 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822

    AEC is unique in that it actually permanently locks out another unit and has a side tech soley for the unit, which in a regular atch where only 1 is built can mostly just be added to the unit cost for all intents and purposes.

    perhaps an upgrade for the luchs that unlocks after a 2nd truck could be implemented (auto bought after 3?). this would make it more attractive in the later game without making it overbearing when rushed. something simple like an "improved optics" that doesnt need a model change or anything but can still apply a modifier.

  • #110
    6 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 650

    Puma, Stuart, AEC, Stug, SU76 are on the same class of support in AT role.

    While Stuart, AEC, Puma are in the same tier of AAHT, Luch, FlakHT and FlameHT, 222 that come to the field at 6min.
    Stug is in the same tier of Pz4 that come to the field at 14min.
    T70 & SU76 just in the middle, at 10min.

    The different in timing is too large.

  • #111
    6 months ago
    Balanced_GamerBalanced_… Posts: 200

    @C3Tooth said:
    Puma, Stuart, AEC, Stug, SU76 are on the same class of support in AT role.

    While Stuart, AEC, Puma are in the same tier of AAHT, Luch, FlakHT and FlameHT, 222 that come to the field at 6min.
    Stug is in the same tier of Pz4 that come to the field at 14min.
    T70 & SU76 just in the middle, at 10min.

    The different in timing is too large.

    You are very right. The timing difference is large, and it is unfair for the AAHT, Luch, FlakHT and FlameHT, 222 to be placed in that situation.

    AAHT, FlahHT and FlameHT should be have additional health. Maybe increase by 120hp would be fair considering how they become very easy to counter. From 320hp to 440hp would be a very good change for them I believe. To give them a better chance of survival is what I think they currently need.

    222 is ok but I feel it could deal some more infantry firepower would be nice, maybe have an upgrade that provides additional armour and health would be interesting. Luchs health is good, needs some improvements and adjustments in performance wise.

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    AEC is unique in that it actually permanently locks out another unit and has a side tech soley for the unit, which in a regular atch where only 1 is built can mostly just be added to the unit cost for all intents and purposes.

    perhaps an upgrade for the luchs that unlocks after a 2nd truck could be implemented (auto bought after 3?). this would make it more attractive in the later game without making it overbearing when rushed. something simple like an "improved optics" that doesnt need a model change or anything but can still apply a modifier.

    Maybe Luchs having upgrades would be a good idea.

    1./ "Improved Optics" which @thedarkarmadillo mentioned. Maybe should improved sight and long range accuracy capabilities. It would most definitely since it was a recon kind of unit. But it should improve its overall capabilites.

    2./ "Crew Training" which I think would be interesting. Decreases reload time and shoots faster.

    I think these 2 options would be great. I think it should become available only after 2 Bases built to make it more potent later game and to make it less overbearing early-mid game.

    I think upgrades for Luchs would make it more viable later game which would be simply great.

    I still think the "Suppression ability" should come Vet 3 or earlier. Just to make it more fun to use. OR maybe when you purchase the following Upgrades. It comes along with the ability would be a great change. Make it a usable ability.

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