SOV - All - Trip Wire Flares Vet1 ability

#1
1 year ago

Problem:

In the current state of the game, there are six Soviet infantry units unlocking the same ability at Vet1 "Trip Wire Flares"
and it will soon go up to seven units with the same Vet1 ability, with the new Airborne Guards.

  1. Combat engineers
  2. Conscripts
  3. Shock troops
  4. Guard troops
  5. Partisan troops
  6. Partisan tank hunters
  7. Airbone guards

Solution;

Replacing those Vet1 abilities at least for units from point 2 to 7, since they feel outdated.
Giving them some love by reworking their Vet1 abilities will create a sense of uniqueness for each unit.
I'm sorry that I can't come with specific abilities for each infantry unit at the moment, but I just wanted to point out what I consider to be an outdated ability spreaded through the entire army. Only Penal Batallions unlock a different ability at Vet1.

Ps: I know that there is a lot of work currently going on with the new Commanders about to be released, but It would be amazing if Team Relic could review these details.

Thanks,

Patrol Omega

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Comments

  • #2
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    Shocks guards and airborne guards all have different vet 1.
  • #3
    1 year ago

    @thedarkarmadillo Thanks for correcting me, I had to recheck and you are totally right. Both units get different Vet1 abilities, however, there are still 5 units left with the same Trip Wire Flares Vet1 ability.

  • #4
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    Conscripts aside I think trip flare suits the other units. Partisans it makes sense to get dirt cheap recon on your enemies' rear lines and combat engies could use something better for sure but it also sort of makes sense on them. Conscripts could use something better though for sure 100%
  • #5
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Conscripts aside I think trip flare suits the other units. Partisans it makes sense to get dirt cheap recon on your enemies' rear lines and combat engies could use something better for sure but it also sort of makes sense on them. Conscripts could use something better though for sure 100%

    See I feel cons are the ones who are totally fine without something else. They get received accuracy at vet 1 so they definitely don't deserve another ability there, and they come with hoorah by default. Rifleman's vet 1 ability is wasted on a snare. In a lot of cases I prefer paying the 25 fuel over needing to vet each squad up

    As far as useless soviet vet abilities go, capture territory is still king in my book.

  • #6
    1 year ago

    @SkysTheLimit I invite you to play with the Soviets and use that Vet1 ability to get an advantage over your opponent.
    You might find out that is kind of useless 6 years after the game released. Their infantry units need 100% a rework as the Okw and Wer have gotten lately, don't you agree?

  • #7
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    edited March 2019
    @SkysTheLimit there are other units that have a rec acc buff at vet 1 but still have a useful ability. I personally just don't feel that the flare suits cons. Tbh to the last man would do them well and since their stats arnt remarkable as is and they are intended to be a tar pit unit so I think it would fit and help offset the lack of weapon upgrade.

    Also cap territory imo is mostly fine imo now that they have changed a few of the heavier tanks.

    IMO though the is-2 should get that inspire ability and the kv-2 should get a limited barrage. That would really tune to their roles.
  • #8
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @SkysTheLimit there are other units that have a rec acc buff at vet 1 but still have a useful ability.

    Yeah and I think hoorah is a worthy ability and they get it by default. Don't get me wrong Im definitely in the camp that cons need something, but I'd rather volks get toned down first before we re-work them again. I think straight up stats tweaking is the only way you can make them perform well enough to not get obliterated by OKWs infantry.

  • #9
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    @SkysTheLimit that's valid. If even trade flares for an oorah buff (ROF or something) but yea toning down volks I a must
  • #10
    1 year ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 2,006
    > @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > @SkysTheLimit that's valid. If even trade flares for an oorah buff (ROF or something)

    I don't. We don't need yet another infantry unit in the game outperforming Grenadiers. We already got all infantry but builders and Conscripts doing that handily. I don't care about the flares. Keep them, remove them, whatever plugs the holes in you boat to make it seaworthy. Don't throw more buffs at the unit in return, however.
  • #11
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681
    edited March 2019

    @Hingie said:
    > @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > @SkysTheLimit that's valid. If even trade flares for an oorah buff (ROF or something)

    I don't. We don't need yet another infantry unit in the game outperforming Grenadiers. We already got all infantry but builders and Conscripts doing that handily. I don't care about the flares. Keep them, remove them, whatever plugs the holes in you boat to make it seaworthy. Don't throw more buffs at the unit in return, however.

    More expensive infantry = better performance.

    Grens are cheapest mainline together with cons.

    I know it is very hard concept, but more expensive units perform better and grens are NOT more expensive.
    They are MEANT to be overperformed by rifles, tommies, penals, because these cost MORE.

    If you feel like grens lack something, go make a thread about it instead of derailing this one.

  • #12
    1 year ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 900

    Cons had accuracy buffed that add nothing to them, for a reason: no weapon upgrade.
    Cons doent need buff. Their utility is already great for them. And to me, Cons can be nerfed down their firepower, gain something like make them harder to hit, a truly meat shield.

    It would be more tactical if letting Cons handing weapons from Elite infantry squad or weapon team. The choice between accuracy (weapons armed by elite infantry) & durable (weapons armed by Cons)

  • #13
    1 year ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 696
    edited March 2019
    Remove tripwire from cons. Adv training will be their vet1.
    It buffs oorah with a acc or rof or damage increase for the duration on mosins only to keep ppsh from becoming to strong. At vet 3 is becomes a tad stronger. This way their utility scales and they can dish out damage although for a limited time.

    The cost off oorah per use goes up to keep it balanced.
  • #14
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    > @Hingie said:
    > > @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > > @SkysTheLimit that's valid. If even trade flares for an oorah buff (ROF or something)
    >
    > I don't. We don't need yet another infantry unit in the game outperforming Grenadiers. We already got all infantry but builders and Conscripts doing that handily. I don't care about the flares. Keep them, remove them, whatever plugs the holes in you boat to make it seaworthy. Don't throw more buffs at the unit in return, however.
    >
    >

    Thing is, grens and cons cost the same right? Grens can utilize a 1 off to greatly improve their output and cons require vet to offset that. I don't feel that a 10 second ROF buff at the cost of 1/3 a permanent dps upgrade would be balance breaking, just make cons more attractive, which at the moment they are not. Especially when they require an extra 35 fuel and 205mp to kit out.

    Keep in mind if cons have to reposition during oorah they are no shooting and if they are shooting then they are static. I think that's a fair trade as a 20mu ability after vet.
  • #15
    1 year ago
    Patrol_OmegaPatrol_Om… Posts: 301
    edited March 2019

    A Vet1 ability that I came up with for Conscripts would be:

    "Unbreakable Union" Taken from the Soviet Union first line of its hymn
    After entering in combat the squad receives an increase to its defense and rate of fire for 10 seconds.

    20 seconds cooldown

  • #16
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    > @Patrol_Omega said:
    > A Vet1 ability that I came up with for Conscripts would be:
    >
    > "Unbreakable Union" Taken from the Soviet Union first line of its hymn
    > After entering in combat the squad receives an increase to its defense and rate of fire for 10 seconds.
    >
    > 20 seconds cooldown

    I wouldn't do both durability and offensive at the same time. One or the other I think.
  • #17
    1 year ago
    Patrol_OmegaPatrol_Om… Posts: 301
    edited March 2019

    I had the idea of it being a desperate last stand maneuver, holding the line desperately from invading forces for a couple of seconds. The overall idea is also not consuming more ammo for the Conscripts abilities since they are highly dependant on them already to be efficient (Non-upgraded Conscripts = peasants with rifles). Not to mention that they have to spend resources on HQ upgrades to unlock them.

  • #18
    1 year ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 2,006
    edited March 2019

    First of all, @Katitof I'm not going to derail this thread by dignifying your statement with a reply, except I am hopeful that you will start the oral consuption of my gluteus maximus at the shortest possible notice.

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Keep in mind if cons have to reposition during oorah they are no shooting and if they are shooting then they are static. I think that's a fair trade as a 20mu ability after vet.

    I dont care. Youre throwing a buff unto an ability that itself already provides a significant utility, especially for a unit that performs better in close quarters. Grenadiers are in the unenviable position of having to fight Penals, Rifles and Sections on a regular basis. Hence the lMG is a necessary tool for them to stay relevant as they cant serve as meat shields and would otherwise get swamped. Cons, on the other hand, fight mostly Grens and Volksgrenadiere (stricktly speaking about basic infantry here, elites and late tier infantry are not taken into account). Volks need some serious toning down, but in the grand scheme of things Grens are forced to fight more formidable opponents right out of the gate.
    I fear that giving Cons a buff in addition to faster movement will lead to them simply overwhelming Grenadiers through speed and volume of fire , even if the latter are given lMGs, leading to Grens becoming even more of a push-over than they are now in most engagements.

    But its not only Grenadiers. Say a Conscript squad flanks an MG, they use Oorah not only to close in faster, but also to eliminate it faster, making it harder to keep that MG covered because now theres this temporarily fast-moving AND hard-hitting squad roaming about. And generally, if the MG has to retreat, the engagement is going to be tough for the Grenadiers alone, as the MG is the cornerstone of the fighting force.

  • #19
    1 year ago

    Getting back on the main Topic from this post, yes Conscripts and other infantry units need a rework on their Vet1 ability.
    Even T4-HQ medium tanks and call in heavy tanks need to get their outdated "Capture ability" changed for something more useful since by that time they will be always followed by infantry support ... so there is no need for that Vet1 ability as well.

    Now talking by you pointing out Axis infantry, here are the new changes:

    1. Assault Grenadiers are receiving a small number of changes to help them close the distance and increase their scaling in the late game.
    2. MP 40s are also having their mid-range power increased to match SMGs like the M3 Grease gun used by Assault Engineers. This change also affects Assault Officer and Volksgrenadier MP 40s.

    Now, you mentioned "Volks need some serious toning down" and yes it is true, at it has been said by several players around lately posts. Nevertheless, they are receiving more improvements ..

    Having a small significant cost difference but being able to scale and get more weapon upgrades is going to be blast for OKW players, of course, but this will leave Conscripts barely usable as they:

    • don't scale into late game
    • they don't even get weapon upgrades unless you pick a specific commander for it,
    • On top of that you get an outdated and barely efficient Vet1 ability.

    Take into consideration that I'm not even mentioning that they already have restrictions on their grenades, being forced to buy HQ upgrades specificaly to unlock both them ..... not something that Axis factions to even worry about.

    So yes! pointing out outdated variables to create changes is something useful to make the game enjoyable and balanced for all players.

  • #20
    1 year ago
    Patrol_OmegaPatrol_Om… Posts: 301
    edited March 2019

    Sorry I almost forgot replying to the Mg stuff @Hingie

    1. Axis mgs have the highest (non doctrinal) Supression stat on the game.
    2. Conscripts get instantly suppressed on the first round
    3. Better defenses don't include suppression % reduction
  • #21
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    > @Hingie said:
    > I dont care. Youre throwing a buff unto an ability that itself already provides a significant utility, especially for a unit that performs better in close quarters. Grenadiers are in the unenviable position of having to fight Penals, Rifles and Sections on a regular basis.

    Seriously man? They perform "better" in close quarters because they perform worse than literally everything besides Ostruppen at all other ranges.

    Grens are much better than cons and there's no disputing that. I need an extra 230mp and 35 fuel just to get a worse grenade and the same snare on a squad thats ALSO worse in combat by default and has no weapon upgrade. There's no excuse for them being this crappy WHILE they still have the side-tech costs.


    > @Hingie said:
    > Volks need some serious toning down, but in the grand scheme of things Grens are forced to fight more formidable opponents right out of the gate.

    More formidable mainlines you mean. Is this game nothing but mainline infantry? No they also have the best MG in the game "right out of the gate" to fight next to. Meanwhile after spending 20 fuel you can unlock the worst MG in the game to support cons.
  • #22
    1 year ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 2,006

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    Seriously man? They perform "better" in close quarters because they perform worse than literally everything besides Ostruppen at all other ranges.

    Conscripts being bad at longer ranges is mostly compensated for by having a built-in sprint. They have a tool at their disposal to close distance quickly. You dont see people complaining how Assault Grenadiers are crap at long range either. Same basic concept.

    Grens are much better than cons and there's no disputing that. I need an extra 230mp and 35 fuel just to get a worse grenade and the same snare on a squad thats ALSO worse in combat by default and has no weapon upgrade. There's no excuse for them being this crappy WHILE they still have the side-tech costs.

    Thats a potential problem of the tech structure, not the unit itself. I consider it halfway fair, seeing how Conscripts are the only regularly accessible unit in the game to have a trinity of durability, a snare and rapid movement. But I suppose some minor adjustments could be made to the tech costs associated

    More formidable mainlines you mean. Is this game nothing but mainline infantry? No they also have the best MG in the game "right out of the gate" to fight next to. Meanwhile after spending 20 fuel you can unlock the worst MG in the game to support cons.

    Most balancing problems of the entire game are rooted in the fact that the Allied infantry is too strong and can take care of Axis infantry with enough ease to facilitate TD spam because Mediums or AI vehicles are not needed. So while not being the only units in the game, they are the root of all evil and much more of an issue than MGs. Furthermore, if Wehr didnt have good Weapon Teams, they would get swamped like noones business. That however also makes them dependend on them, and Teams are by design rather inflexible. Oorah is as good a tool agains MGs as it is against Grenadiers. The arguably poor state of the Maxim is a proportionally small problem seeing how Soviets have other units performing very well in its stead.

  • #23
    1 year ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 900
    Its not Allied infantry is too strong. Its West army infantry in overall
    

    Builder:

    • CombatEng & Pion are weak, they can only upgrade either flame or minesweeper. Pion at least have various defend to build with great sight which make them have manything to do. CombatEng can not fight anything, even flanking weaponteam, the only thing to do is lay TM35 & repair.
    • Rear & Sapper are cheap in term of firepower compare to Pion with their similar ~200mp price (this make CombatEng not even worth 170mp). With ability to grab double gun with a minesweeper. This make Rear & Sapper much easier to gain vet3 for x1.5 repair speed, they also able to gain 5th man. CombatEng & Pion hardly live up to that.
    • Sturm at default has x1.2 repair faster than others (its a should since they take more pop cap). Upgrade minesweeper doesnt make them lost 25% of their great fire power, not mention minesweeper give them x1.6 repair speed (x2 at vet3)
      => Minesweeper should take a weapon slot, which mean CombatEng & Pion able to upgrade both flamethrower & sweeper at the same time and not able to pick up any other weapon (same with Rear & Sapper with their flamethrower doc), Rear & Sapper can only pickup one Bar or Bren after upgrade sweeper. Not apply to Sturm able to upgrade both Shreck & sweeper because sweeper give them more benefit.

    • East army use 20sec to build tech 1-2 & 30sec to build tech 3-4. That consume a builder squad at frontline & have to run back to teching, consume at least 3mins. At the same time West army builders always on the battle field.
      => There is noway to balance this anyway.

    MG42 is on the good place, it required to fight double Bars or Brens in late game.
    50cal & Maxim damage better than MG42, but they lack of suppression, which is MGs real job.
    You can not deny 2 Volk & a Sturm can easily delete the 1st Maxim which come at 50sec (because it require to build tech2 to get), than a Cons & a CombatEng fight an MG42 come at 30sec.

  • #24
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    Oorah is too expensive for its cost and that without spending extra fuel generally brings little to the table. The mobility is good if yoi have something to deliver but unless you have the molitovs or AT nades or molitovs there is less point in it. Nobody complains about ass grens because they are effective in close range, meaning they have a range where THEY ARE effective. Cons.... Not so much. Ass grens in the preview also have an ability to help them scale something cons stand out alone as a squad that doesn't. 20mu to yell and run isn't a good ability when just running without yelling costs 10mu and when running and yelling 3 times costs the same as a permanent damage upgrade. It's simply cost effeciency. Something cons are in dire need of.
  • #25
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    > @Hingie said:
    > You dont see people complaining how Assault Grenadiers are crap at long range either. Same basic concept.

    No, not the same basic concept. Conscripts are mainline infantry, assault Grenadiers are doctrinal specialists. And as Dark said, ass grens HAVE an effective range. Cons don't, they're just not AS terrible at close range.

    Rifleman are MUCH stronger at close range, yet still excel at other ranges too. The only justification for conscript performance is the existence of penals, which shouldn't be as good as they are. But they need to be, because conscripts are shit.

    > @Hingie said:
    > Most balancing problems of the entire game are rooted in the fact that the Allied infantry is too strong and can take care of Axis infantry with enough ease to facilitate TD spam because Mediums or AI vehicles are not needed.

    It probably looks that way to someone who only plays axis.
  • #26
    1 year ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 2,006
    edited March 2019

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    20mu to yell and run isn't a good ability when just running without yelling costs 10mu and when running and yelling 3 times costs the same as a permanent damage upgrade.

    Make Oorah cheaper then. Lower cost to 10 mun and be done with it.

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    Rifleman are MUCH stronger at close range, yet still excel at other ranges too. The only justification for conscript performance is the existence of penals, which shouldn't be as good as they are. But they need to be, because conscripts are shit.

    I would say thats more of a problem with Rifles lacking a clearly defined range in which they should operate rather than a problem with Conscripts. Perhaps if Penals werent as outstanding as they are I would be more inclined to give the notion of buffing Conscripts some room. As things are now I'm rather reluctant.

    It probably looks that way to someone who only plays axis.

    Im far from the only one thinking this. In the past this sentiment was shared with, among others, Lazarus and Armadillo. Given that Infantry balancing was not overhauled since the last time I voiced this argument and received positive feedback, Id say its not only bias speaking.

  • #27
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    @hingie they just increased the price not long ago. I don't reckon they will back it up. Cons and penals need to be addressed at the same time, else Soviet will be too much of simply dead
  • #28
    1 year ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 2,006

    They probably wont. Then again, maybe they had a reason for increasing its cost? I dont know. I agree with the Penals part.

  • #29
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    @Hingie So you approve of nerfing penals, but not buffing conscripts? For the love of God, if that's the case it's definitely the bias. I'm not sure why you're referencing the past, armadillo is right here saying cons and penals need to be changed.

    It's bias if you have to talk about "allied infantry" everytime we're ONLY talking about one allied squad. The US and Brits have nothing to do with THIS thread
  • #30
    1 year ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 2,006
    edited March 2019

    No, I agree with a nerf of Penals being paired with a readjustment of Conscripts. How that adjustment is then done, I am not sure. I think care would be in order, however, lest we nerf Penals down only to have their current supremacy somehow usurped by buffed Conscripts. Generally I am not necessarily adamantly opposed to the concept however.

  • #31
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    @hingie if I recall the oorah increase was in conjunction with a ppsh nerf (when they were trying around with less guns and price changes) at its current price and the reliance of some sort of additional investment it's simply overpriced.

    Id personally see the following:

    -Penals cost reduced to 260-280
    -armed with guards Mosins
    -Upgrade to SVT kit for 45-60mu
    -ptrs upgrade unchanged.
    -packages mutually exclusive

    This makes Soviet field control greater and still offers a stronger 0min aggressive conscripts alternative and time gates the powerful penals we see today
    This also means that strong AI and t1 AT are a choice instead of an easy transition

    For cons there's a number of ways we could see them go, my favorites are allowing them to become more cost effecient as the player techs. Things like cost reductions and what not

    I'd even see oorah turned to a vet 1 and made more support, (ROF aura or cooldown or small damage/target size reductions scaling with vet as well as teching

    The idea for cons being that they don't need a weapon to scale like others but instead become more expendable and amplify the units they are supporting.

    I can dream
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