Soviet - New Commander Mod Official Discussion

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Comments

  • #62
    6 months ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 346

    @thedarkarmadillo I was worried that my idea was too much like the US Airborne doctrine, even though that wasn't my intention. I just wanted a way to work the M-42 into the roster and this idea seemed the best way to do it.

    Putting all those items in the Rally Point is a bit too much, in my opinion (it would make the RP a much higher value target than it is already). Having 2 slots free for other items might turn this commander into a monster, depending on what was used to fill them.

    As for improving the AT Strafe, you are preaching to the choir on that score. Amen, brother. Amen.

  • #63
    6 months ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 346

    I just had an interesting thought. What if they replaced the Airborne Guards Vet 1 strafe with the Inspire ability? They are meant to be elite troops so, having them inspire the "regular" infantry squads around them makes some sense without being OP. I'm not 100% sure about the mechanics of the ability (such as whether it can be applied to an infantry unit) but, it might save a lot of time spent trying to tweak the strafe to a "just right" configuration. Any thoughts?

  • #64
    6 months ago
    MartevallMartevall Posts: 108
    From my side only +1
  • #65
    6 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822

    @PanzerFutz said:
    I just had an interesting thought. What if they replaced the Airborne Guards Vet 1 strafe with the Inspire ability? They are meant to be elite troops so, having them inspire the "regular" infantry squads around them makes some sense without being OP. I'm not 100% sure about the mechanics of the ability (such as whether it can be applied to an infantry unit) but, it might save a lot of time spent trying to tweak the strafe to a "just right" configuration. Any thoughts?

    i once suggested thats how shocks and guards worked. kinda like mini officers with a slight, unstacking aura that makes cons less trash since at the time soviet lacked any officer units at all

  • #66
    6 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    I'm happy to see the bug fixes and buff to the sad ball of a rocket strike. Excited to give this commander another go!
  • #67
    6 months ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 346

    The Rocket Strike is now probably as good as it's going to get. It knocked a Panther down to 50% with a strike from the rear so, that's pretty much what I wanted from it. It can affect a battle without dominating it.

    The Guards strafe has been nerfed back to what it's supposed to be: a suppression strafe that holds up blobs long enough for reinforcements to arrive. It will be valuable under certain circumstances but, I probably wouldn't use it that often. My feeling is that it will be effective the first time it gets used but, it will be less so after that. It will then force opponents to use ranged weapons to deal with the guards.

    I'd still like to see the Airdropped Weapons moved into the Rally Point to make room for the M-42 but, I won't be holding my breath waiting for it to happen.

  • #68
    6 months ago
    Lnk003Lnk003 Posts: 418
    edited April 3

    @Romanov said:

    you do realize they intentionally use the sniper models for the airborne guards? i myself dont see why they need to be guards, but the sniper model is intentional because of the camouflage suit.

    For the suit talk, we don't really care if the suit fits how they really were in ww2 or not, the same way you close your eyes on their totally not paradropped spawn. History wise you could even rationale them to be changed to guards models because paras' div became guards' div during ww2.

    Outside of history: Here they are named guards, they tooltip match guards, they sound like guards (because it's more EZ to do so or the trolling way "you do realize they intentionally makes them guards for voicelines ?"), they look like snipers. It's just cognitive dissonance to me (because the model has been sniper for 5 years) and the same way it isn't an issue to have them sniper models, -imo- it wouldn't be that of an issue if they were just looking like guards.

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    could even have the DSHK and m42 both airdrop from the rally point[...].

    Your strafe switch is a great idea for the AT issue.
    They could make AT strafe called by units and not share cooldowns so you would have regular AT in a way never seen before in this game and miles from appart usf airborne.
    (A way to not let it broken spam bs: You make the strafe call in another upgrade to the unit and limit the number of units that can upgrade to like 2-3).

  • #69
    6 months ago
    Naya_TyanNaya_Tyan Russia Posts: 129

    @Andy_RE
    Version 3.0 changes.

    Airborne Guards
    The strafe ability was never intended to be a powerful damage dealer, instead it was meant to be a potent suppression tool that can be quickly called in to halt advancing infantry. Adjustments have been made to heavily reduce its damage.
    Oorah has also been removed from the Airborne Guards due to their access to either Smoke or Fire Superiority when appropriately upgraded.
    -Veterancy 1 Strafe damage from 5 to 2.
    -AOE from 6 to 5
    -Strafe AOE distance from 1/1/1 to 0/1/3
    -Strafe AOE damage distance from 1/1/1 to 1/0.5/0.3

    I am not pleased with the change of Soviet paratroopers

    Why?
    1) If you are Veterancy 1 Strafe reduce damage and AOE then make him a price for less and the call was different and not the same!
    2) If someone does not like Strafe, then give them Veterancy 1 "Katyusha Artillery".
    "Katyusha Artillery" - if you have at least one BM-13 "Katyusha" on the base, give an order to the Soviet paratroopers shelling of the specified territory.
    3) Give them then the Camouflage Net and one squad sniper.
    Since your change from "Strafe" does not make sense to use it.
    4) I recommend to return and leave the "Strafe" as in version 2.0.

    DsHK Paradrop

    All were willing until the DShK is not needed in this commander. Think of something else.
    1) remove and replace something more balanced commanders.
    2) Replace it with "Shipping Ammo".
    3) Replace it with any technique (so that there is an equal battle with the Light and Medium Technics)

    I think that you reduce the effectiveness of the USSR Commanders than the US and German commanders. (Which are new and powerful).
    I would advise you to increase the effectiveness of the USSR and the British nation. Or balance all nations so that these commanders stabilize.

  • #70
    6 months ago
    SlayerSlayer Posts: 132

    @Sander93 said:

    @Slayer said:
    The guards are not paratroopers at all, they suddenly pop up in the middle of some smoke, a sorry excuse for a paradrop. So pls make a nice parachute animation, if that's too much work

    I'll ignore your condescending tone because I'm sure you are grateful that the community balance team is spending their free time to bring you new free content. The team does not have access to the core of the game so it's not that easy (and might just be impossible) to slap parachutes on a squad. It will probably be changed to something more elegant if adding parachutes proves to be impossible.

    I'm sorry you took this as condescending, I am just criticizing stuff. Yes, I like the fact that we get new content (even better free, sure!), but this does not mean that you can't say negative things about it, right? And I really like new content, but I also like the content to be good: I'd rather have less commanders which are good, than more commanders of which a large portion is half-assed (that's why I cheered the commander revamps, they improved a lot on some of the half-assed commanders).

    I'm not just complaining, I'm pointing out something which could be improved, I even suggested a solution for this. I don't expect the modteam to be able to make a chute animation from scratch, but I'm sure there are other possibilities.

    If moddingwise copy-paste from US Airborne is not possible because the modteam can't get to the core of the game, then I suggest one of the following:

    • Relic gives the modteam more access (best solution, which also opens up way more possibilities)
    • make the Guards drop together with something else so at least we get one chute (like darkarmadillo suggested)
    • change the name of the commander to "Soviet infiltration", which suits the deployment better
    • change the doctrine altogether and go for Deep Battle, which is much more doable with the limited resources the modteam has

    If this is all a no go, then I'm really sorry, but then I'm wondering why this entire operation started in the first plae. By announcing new commanders, and a community vote on it, Relic raised expectations and now it turns out they can't really meet them. Maybe I missed it, but it would have been way clearer if they would have said: "Guys, we are going to try and add some new commanders. You can vote but we don't know if we will use the suggestions. The commanders will be made with very limited resources so don't expect too much of it. But: five new commanders for free, that's for sure!"

    TLDR: criticizing yes, condescending no. Preferation for little amount of good content instead of much more, but bad content.

  • #71
    6 months ago
    Patrol_OmegaPatrol_Om… Posts: 299

    @Slayer are you expecting a company, team or in this case Relic's mod team to please every single customer point of view and suggestion?

    We all have different opinions on how things should come out at the end, but specifically talking about this free gift and you having a bad opinion about it doesn't mean that everyone else thinks the same way as you do about this subject.

    Ps: I personally think that your suggestion of simply throwing all the work done to the trash and coming with something different is total nonsense.

  • #72
    6 months ago
    RomanovRomanov Posts: 48

    @Lnk003 said:
    For the suit talk, we don't really care if the suit fits how they really were in ww2 or not, the same way you close your eyes on their totally not paradropped spawn. History wise you could even rationale them to be changed to guards models because paras' div became guards' div during ww2.

    Outside of history: Here they are named guards, they tooltip match guards, they sound like guards (because it's more EZ to do so or the trolling way "you do realize they intentionally makes them guards for voicelines ?"), they look like snipers. It's just cognitive dissonance to me (because the model has been sniper for 5 years) and the same way it isn't an issue to have them sniper models, -imo- it wouldn't be that of an issue if they were just looking like guards.

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    could even have the DSHK and m42 both airdrop from the rally point[...].

    Your strafe switch is a great idea for the AT issue.
    They could make AT strafe called by units and not share cooldowns so you would have regular AT in a way never seen before in this game and miles from appart usf airborne.
    (A way to not let it broken spam bs: You make the strafe call in another upgrade to the unit and limit the number of units that can upgrade to like 2-3).


    Just thought it looked cool for soviet airborne to get camo uniforms, i believe the mod team had the same rationale.(especially on winter maps where they get to wear budenovkas,love that)Also didn't know the airborne divisions received guard status during the war, so i guess that makes sense then,good to let me know.

    as for the actual gameplay stuff an AT strafe could be a nice idea, but should it be an auto-aimed loiter or a player controlled attack? i didnt like them nering the IL-2 rocket strafe (god forbid we can have a universally useful air attack)
    perhaps we could use the stuka 37mm strafe since there were IL-2-37s that had a similar armamant?

  • #73
    6 months ago
    Mr_RuinMr_Ruin Posts: 92

    I think this commander shouldn't get AT.

    With weapons drop it makes Conscripts viable, it drops a very good HMG and gives you elite infantry with smoke or AI strafe. Therefore for it to be good against infantry it actually doesn't need any buildings except HQ, the rest can be called in.

    Give it an AT drop or a good AT strafe/arty/whatever and you get a commander which can fight the first 15 minutes of a match without building a single building. That doesn't seem balanced.

  • #74
    6 months ago
    SlayerSlayer Posts: 132
    @Patrol_Omega No, where did you get that idea? This is a forum, it is meant to gather opinions. I gave mine, just as you gave yours.

    I'm happy the rocketstrike got buffed, I still feel it's less powerful than the US rocketstrafe though, why can't they be equal in power/cost?
  • #75
    6 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    (Updated to ver. 3)
    Soviet - Airbourne ver.3

    CP 2 SVT Drop
    The ability gives invisible weapons when taken by axis infatry (at least by pios).
    In addition it made CE engineer flamer disappear when reinforced.

    (I am pretty sure that is will create a number of balance issues also)

    CP 3 Airborne Guards
    Smoke can be easily be used to bypass defenses in addition the grenade can be used immediately increasing the problems with this method of deployment. Consider alternatives like infiltration or being built from Airborne Rally Point.

    The IL-2 strafing run and the Fire Superiority are problematic for a long range unit that should be weak to CQC units.

    The IL-2 strafing run is also problematic for the PPSh version sine i t allow the keep enemy busy while closing in.

    If the IL-2 is so important I suggest you move it Airborne Rally Point and the fire superiority to PPsh Guards.

    CP 2 Airborne Rally Point
    The ability is way to cost effective especially in 3vs4 4vs4. Suggest abilities come as upgrades with addition cost to structure also increasing durability.

    It can also be built in enemy base, it should not be available to be happen.

    CP 2 DsHK Paradrop
    Allowing 6 men crews with SVT for this HMG make the unit very difficult to flank.

    With the increasing in cone the unit has no reason to sprint. Sprint should be removed and since it now has increased penetration the AP round could serves as vet 1 ability.

    Close DPS once vetted is simply too high.

    CP 10 IL-2 Rocket Strafe
    Maybe make the rockets land in 4 lines instead of 2? or to track vehicles with in the strafe path

  • #76
    6 months ago
    WilhelmIXWilhelmIX Posts: 18

    We are just going to ignore the fact that penals, after they pick up SVT package get x6 ppsch's? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    I completely can't understand it to be fair, it's very OP. Just make them get 2 or 3 ppsch's without the ability to upgrade into PTRS, or just make them get single dp-28.

  • #77
    6 months ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 346

    @WilhelmIX Penals shouldn't be getting anything at all from an SVT drop, given they are already equipped with them. Getting Ppsh's and then being able to upgrade with PTRS's is way OP. Not sure if it's a bug but, it needs to be fixed.

    Also, I think that when the Airborne Guards upgrade with DP's, they should get the Button Vehicle ability. It would give them some counter-armor ability, which the Guards are currently lacking. It makes a lot of sense to have Fire Superiority associated with the PPsh's and Button Vehicle associated with the DP's.

    IL-2 Strafe could be attached to the Rally Point but, it would need a very large radius of action. It's not much use if it's too limited.

  • #78
    6 months ago
    Patrol_OmegaPatrol_Om… Posts: 299

    @Vipper
    1) Soviets have lacked a forward retreat point since the game was released, so they are finally getting one from a Commander at least, and it was very well designed. The cost is a true relief alternative to the uncommon high cost of 250mp cost for 3 medics at your base. Again a high cost that Axis players have no pressure of dealing with.
    I would recommend swapping the Retreat Point ability restriction to only require any combination of two additional HQs built (as the OKW), instead of a T4HQ built in order to unlock it.

    2) Soviets are extremely weak against early enemy vehicles and you are proposing to remove the Doctrinal DsHK ability to use AT ammunitions freely? That seems just simply illogical, is a trade gained for locking this Commander.

    3) Quoting "The IL-2 strafing run is also problematic for the PPSh version sine i t allow the keep enemy busy while closing in" That is the point buddy. Anyway the ability is quite weak as it does almost 0 damage, but at least is some love given to them.

    4) Quoting again "If the IL-2 is so important I suggest you move it Airborne Rally Point and the fire superiority to PPsh Guards." that proposal feels like forcing Soviet players into an unfresh playstyle.

    @PanzerFaust
    5) The Svt drop used to overlap with Penals rifles, leaving it only usable to pointless Engineers and over-nerfed Conscripts. Making the Commander very boring or pointless to play with. So allowing Penals to get a different weapon and playstyle from the standard rifles was the best correction made on this Commander. After all, if you are using over-nerfed Conscripts outside of 1v1 then you deserve to lose the game. Not to mention that sub-mgs are worthless on big open maps.

    In general, this commander feels very weak against enemy vehicles during all stages of the game (even with the recent buff to IL-2 Rocket Run but is understandable) , so it should at least do quite fair against enemy infantry as it has been greatly designed and very fun to play with, I personally love how refreshing it feels to have a different playstyle with this Commander. However, It basically has no great answers towards enemy tanks, therefore dealing with the new Axis Commanders is a risk that you will have to take.

  • #79
    6 months ago
    Mr_RuinMr_Ruin Posts: 92
    edited April 10

    Soviets are weak against early vehicles? You mean Soviets which can very early get an AT grenade on a unit which can sprint, can also get PTRS rifles quite early on another unit and have a light vehicle with 50cal on it which can damage other light vehicles AND can carry PTRS equipped units which can also shoot while being driven.

    Oh and let's not foget swiss army knife of light vehicles - the T-70. I think some Ost players have nightmares about T-70 how good it is ...

    Or some other Soviets?

  • #80
    6 months ago
    Patrol_OmegaPatrol_Om… Posts: 299

    @Mr_Ruin
    Conscripts were hardly nerfed so recruiting and upgrading them with ATnades still feels weak and not cost efficient at all, unlike their Axis counterparts that scale into late game and come with ATnades already available for use, don't you agree?

    Ptrs rifles against Panzershrecks haven been compared on a recent post with video included, guess who won?
    Panzerfaust dealing critical damage against a light or medium tank with full Hp after a single shot, AT-gun with cammo included, high damage and less gun reload time. Yep, what about Soviets again?

  • #81
    6 months ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 346

    @Patrol_Omega The problem is that Penals with PPSh's, PTRS's, AP and AT satchels is OP. Penal's are destined to be spammed all the time with this upgrade. I don't mind them getting PPSh's but, it should lock out the PTRS/AT satchel upgrade. You need to play against this doctrine with someone who knows what they're doing. You'll change your tune about this unit very quickly when you're massively bleeding to spammed Penals that can take down anything you can throw at them. It's a super squad wiper, especially when it doesn't have to retreat very far to get reinforcements and healing.

    Conscripts are relegated to early capping and manning team weapons in the early stages of the game under this doctrine. Replacements can be had from the Rally Point so, they're not needed for that. Penals with SVT's + PTRS's and Penals with PPSh's + PTRS's will be the mainline infantry, supported by Guards with DP's and a strafe. 2 minutes into the game and Conscripts stop being built at all. It certainly is a different play-style.

    I agree that "this commander feels very weak against enemy vehicles during all stages of the game", which is why I suggested attaching the Weapons Drop to the Rally Point and adding an M-42 AT gun to the doctrine. Others have suggested that doesn't go far enough and they would like to see a heavy tank added to the doctrine. I'm not sure I agree; I wanted a Soviet equivalent to the other airborne doctrines, not another all-purpose commander.

    In general, airborne doctrines don't seem well suited to 1v1 games; they tend to get over-powered by doctrines which contain a lot of heavy elements. In a larger game, they can add elements of surprise and distraction, which then give teammates the breathing room to bring heavier units into the game. I guess the question is whether this commander is meant to be strong enough to stand on its own in a 1v1 game. A stronger AT component would certainly help with that.

  • #82
    6 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited April 11

    @Patrol_Omega said:
    2) Soviets are extremely weak against early enemy vehicles and you are proposing to remove the Doctrinal DsHK ability to use AT ammunitions freely? That seems just simply illogical, is a trade gained for locking this Commander.

    Dshk just got a major buff in it penetration it does need vet 0 AP rounds nor does it need sprint.

    3) Quoting "The IL-2 strafing run is also problematic for the PPSh version sine i t allow the keep enemy busy while closing in" That is the point buddy. Anyway the ability is quite weak as it does almost 0 damage, but at least is some love given to them.

    4) Quoting again "If the IL-2 is so important I suggest you move it Airborne Rally Point and the fire superiority to PPsh Guards." that proposal feels like forcing Soviet players into an unfresh playstyle.

    Having long range units that can stop advancing QCQ units from closing in via suppression or slow is a bad design it was proven via USF defensive stance.

  • #83
    6 months ago
    Patrol_OmegaPatrol_Om… Posts: 299

    Good analogy @PanzerFutz nice time reading it as it makes sense and I must admit that I considered your proposal of adding a light AT gun as a good one.

    @Vipper is funny how you complain about recent buffs, but you don't complain about the long-lasting stat that Axis mgs have had, I mean ... does it makes you angry that they are receiving numbers that still are not equivalent but close enough to the MG42?

    Should we increase the cost or mp cost to the Axis basic infantry because they are receiving both unit and weapon buffs?

    Now that we are talking about armor and AP I do consider the Doctrinal OKW light scout car to have defense stats totally incoherent for a light scout car. Standard bullets do almost no damage to it! Not even mgs get to damage it decently, but is a scout car! So shouldn't it be nerfed to match its description?

    But you are complaining about a well-needed buff on a unit that you never get to see during games because of how bad it was?

  • #84
    6 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited April 11

    @Patrol_Omega said:
    Good analogy @PanzerFutz nice time reading it as it makes sense and I must admit that I considered your proposal of adding a light AT gun as a good one.

    @Vipper is funny how you complain about recent buffs, but you don't complain about the long-lasting stat that Axis mgs have had, I mean ... does it makes you angry that they are receiving numbers that still are not equivalent but close enough to the MG42?

    Should we increase the cost or mp cost to the Axis basic infantry because they are receiving both unit and weapon buffs?

    Now that we are talking about armor and AP I do consider the Doctrinal OKW light scout car to have defense stats totally incoherent for a light scout car. Standard bullets do almost no damage to it! Not even mgs get to damage it decently, but is a scout car! So shouldn't it be nerfed to match its description?

    But you are complaining about a well-needed buff on a unit that you never get to see during games because of how bad it was?

    You seem to be taking this too personally while drifting of topic but let me provide you with some numbers:
    Front Armor 221 Armour increased to 5.4
    Dhsk penetration no AP round 7/6/5

    Chance to penetrate max range 93%.

    Clearly the Dshk does need AP rounds to penetrate the 221

  • #85
    6 months ago
    Patrol_OmegaPatrol_Om… Posts: 299
    edited April 13

    Interesting change on the AT ability.

  • #86
    6 months ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 346

    @Patrol_Omega Well, they have to give opposition players time to get out of the way so, the AT Strafe can be the same waste of munitions that all other single-pass strafes are.

    They are trying hard to make the German commanders must-have doctrines, while the Allied factions all get saddled with novelty commanders that no one will use. That's what they mean by "balance".

  • #87
    6 months ago
    RomanovRomanov Posts: 48

    @PanzerFutz said:
    @Patrol_Omega Well, they have to give opposition players time to get out of the way so, the AT Strafe can be the same waste of munitions that all other single-pass strafes are.

    They are trying hard to make the German commanders must-have doctrines, while the Allied factions all get saddled with novelty commanders that no one will use. That's what they mean by "balance".

    I'd still say that lend lease is the most interesting allied commander, coincidentally the one that got tinkered with the least since the mod started. But yeah, while the german commanders arent as interesting as Soviet VDV or British Lend lease they are better rounded out.

  • #88
    6 months ago
    Patrol_OmegaPatrol_Om… Posts: 299

    The truth has been spoken @PanzerFutz yeah everyone kind of suspects that already, but the game is enjoyable as long as it doesn't go way too unbalanced. Wermacht hardcore Meta incoming with all those recent buffs.

    Anyone playing with the Allied factions knows how painful the game gets once the enemy gets tanks, in my opinion just by nerfing the chances of bouncing AT bullets on Axis tanks will bring the entire game to a more balanced state.

    I just got to destroy a King Tiger and right after that, I had the destroy the remainings so that the enemy wouldn't be able to recap it. To my big surprise, the scrumbles got to deflect 2 consecutive shots from my doctrinal T34/85mm :| :D from the front rear. I don't know if I should laugh, get mad or just go with it like meh.

    I'm looking forward to making a video about it because I was totally not expecting that and it just proves how bad those values currently are.

    I had to mention the deflecting thing because the new commanders come with more tanks for both the OKW and the Wermacht so it will be very stressful.

    Aside from all that I prefer playing with a totally different playstyle, so thanks a lot for the new Soviet Commander.

  • #89
    6 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    Use one of the dedicated TDs allies have to destroy heavy armour. That's what they are over tuned to do with utmost efficiency. Don't try and hammer a nail with a screwdriver and bitch that the head is too small.
  • #90
    6 months ago
    Mr_RuinMr_Ruin Posts: 92

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Use one of the dedicated TDs allies have to destroy heavy armour. That's what they are over tuned to do with utmost efficiency. Don't try and hammer a nail with a screwdriver and bitch that the head is too small.

    Exactly! Allies have SU-85, Jackson and Firefly which are all awesome TD's. And what else do the Allies have? Great infantry. Use some combined arms instead of spamming T34's and screaming how you can't destroy anything.

  • #91
    6 months ago
    Patrol_OmegaPatrol_Om… Posts: 299

    @Mr_Ruin I'm pretty sure that you don't know of which T34 I was talking about, so I will say it again.
    A T34/85mm for your knowledge is a doctrinal tank that is even better than the SU-85 as it can deal with infantry as well, and in case you didn't know 85mm stands for the mm of the main gun... So there is no point of you comparing it to a standard T34/76mm, both of which can get their shots deflected at a decent rate.

    Stop diminishing units if you still can't tell the difference between them, please ... know your units

    Now getting back to the main topic of this post the Soviet Commander is a masterpiece if you want to play a totally different playstyle than what Soviets are used to. Loving the Airborne Guards and the Forward retreat point.

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