Soviet SERIOUSLY need some BUFF

#1
4 months ago

(First of all, I am not a native English speaker. I'm korean and if you have trouble understanding my English, just comment below. and why do you guys use "A"? we don't use dat tho lol)

I've been playing 3v3 and -mainly- 4v4 for a month with my friends. I played for roughly 100 hours for a month and overall playtime is around 450 hours. And I played allies, SOVIET only(cause I even bought any other Dlcs and I don't even want to play naxis. Lol, 3a rodinu)

I didn't played CoH2 constantly before the last month. So, I couldn't realized how "Build" is important to win the early phase. After I and my friends played for a month(roughly 100 hrs), we now choose appropriate build and have better micro-control skill.

Even we now have improved skill on fundamental 1v1 and associated 4v4, it is still difficult to beat nassises as a allies. Especially when around half of us played as Soviet. In my(our) experience, we faced quiet a lot of reversal defeat(I mean axis turn the tide against us and defeated us) even when we took their Fuel points(to delay their powerful tanks) and victory points.

Here's a reference of how we got defeat by reversal.

  1. We use hard counter tactic against OKW or Wehrmacht(one question, can they called as a "OberKommando des Heers"?) and capture crucial Fuel and Victory points.
  2. Save most of fuel for tanks. No conscripts upgrade since they are now "Auxiliary troops" for current meta. Or make only one AA truck for Anti vehicle purpose.
  3. If we managed to capture 2 fuel points, we can have 1 T-34/85 at 10 min. Or else one T-34/76 at least.
  4. We successfully control 2 or 3 victory points. If we could break their front-line, we win most of time. But what if we couldn't push them to limit?
  5. Around 30 minute, they can produce at least 2 panther, if they didn't wasted fuel for other purpose. and by numerous panthers and Artys(mainly rocket. We do have them either but the attacker have most of its performance) our line starts to break.
  6. If we didn't managed form flexible defensive line, we looses.

As we want to win against fasccist and bring justice, we are fixing our deficient by experience taken from defeat, and analysed why we have defeated. And we could find What Axis Have Better as well as This Game's Characteristic.

Below is what "This game's different aspect from other RTS(which there is Worker exist for gather resource) games"

  1. There's barely existing snowballing(I mean there's almost no snowballing) There are three resource types as you all know. And each resource doesn't Interfere themselves. So even if your infantry suffers heavy losses, there's no regulation prohibits you to build tanks. Also since CoH2 have no "worker" thing. You get income whatsoever.
  2. Tanks are can't be COUNTERED by infantry if that is not a Su-85 or StuG. Some will say panthers are not good at taking out infantries. But, no. Panthers, as well as other tanks CAN NOT BE COUNTERED by infantry. Especially for current situation, it prohibits even more. Tanks can just go backward to get away from personal AT weapons. and with its usally 1 canon and 2 machine guns, It's matter of time to kill infs. And if you send a single panther to kill infs? you are taking mistake. Wise man would use tanks like a Mongolian hordes. Away from Infs, snipe enemies. Currently personal At weapons are more like Self defensive weapon. And if tanks want to kill more infs? they just can squeeze them literally lol.
  3. Rocket vehicles easily destroy front lines. It's not OP as I think except for OKW's but it can counter Infantries, buildings, AT guns easily.
  4. If someone's front line pulled back to the HQ, he can fight with more efficiency.
  5. Game continues over 30 minutes quiet a lot of times.

And Axis have STRONGER points due to the game's aspect.

  1. Panther wins nearly every tanks(except for comet I guess ;D) and infantries. for Infs, I know a single panther can't stop 5 squads of rifleman with bazookas. but associate with one more panther or with other units, It can easily escape from danger. And probably axis would launch rokets there. And for a Tank battle. Panther simply has mounted Pak40 with 980 of hp, one of the strongest armor and nearly top class of mobility. And if you think panther is difficult to produce?? if the battle continues more than 30 min, a good player would have 2 or more panther.
  2. Axis can be replenished easier than soviets and other allies. First of all, they have forward HQ. And a quiet hidden advantage: Grenadier have lesser cost on replenishment compare to USA and Soviet. If conscripts have 2 squad man left and grenadier have lost 2 man? Soviets suffers nearly 10 more manpower. Volks are just too strong for their cost.
  3. And no.2 characteristic gives additional ability to fight longer.
  4. MOST CRUCIAL ADVANTAGE: In later game(over 30min) phase, everyone would have max cap troops and tanks. and it makes THE GERMANS WIN. They got panthers, some super heavy tanks that can kill either infantries and tanks.

So yes. In longer point of view. Axis have to win the game. Due to superior tank power... I know Brits are strong as nassi friends so I won't complain about it. The one which faction need buff right now is soviet.

And it doesn't need any specific control on units

JUST MAKE THE SOVIETS POP CAP UP TO 130~150.

So they can build additional 2 or 3 more tanks. Usually Max cap battle goes with 3 tanks vs 3 tanks. So it got unbalanced. Give Soviets historically accurate MASS armies as well as for good balance.

(Don't say that mass army would beat Germany easily. you can block 12 squads of volks wave with 3 maxim. And we got rockets you know)

I hope relic show us some good patch. How do you think guys?

Comments

  • #2
    4 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 225

    I don't know exactly but yes some more balance needs to be done. infantry fighting has gotten a lot better than what I remember but I have heard of the cost problem with grenadier. also light vehicle game play very back and forth awesome now. but the really unbalanced section is the medium tanks. As USF I need a commander for any up gunned Sherman to take out a panzer4, m10 Is a big nope of a tank destroyer unless it came possibly in light vehicle tier and stock Sherman I don't bother with as it cannot fight off panzer 4 solo unless surprised and flanked somehow and negligibly better anti infantry tank. I can micro an m20 to do better damage than the 75mm He even with shrecks on the field which is sad and it simply amounts to survivability being that key factor and m20+ armor upgrade survives fairly easy when properly micro managed.

    same goes with panther I think the overwhelming survivability throws off all other tanks in the game trying to compensate around it even as far as making the tiger and Pershing look bad. king tiger on the other hand is in a league all on its own I love that tank and I hate fighting against it lol.

  • #3
    4 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 452

    Push up Soviet pop cap to 130 is ridiculous. Just lower down CombatEng 5 to 4, Cons 7 to 6 would already do the pop cap balance for Soviet.

    Panther is a tough/fast unit that just push in without strategy, and thats actually their weakness

    I've been done so many time that outsmart Panthers, I can list them here as an USF player:

    • Pershing, 3 ATguns hold fire with 2 mines. Use Pershing to push a head, counter 2 Panthers. A Pershing can take 5hits, 2 Panther can take 12hits. Certainly a Panther take 1hit, in return Pershing take 2hit from Panthers. Pershing move back to ATgun position, 100% of the chance Panthers will chase Pershing to finish off. I will make sure ATguns will not shoot Panthers until they step on the mines (because of surprise element, ATgun shoot at 60range will make them retreat easily). Now damaged engine Panther just hopelessly retreat away from 3ATguns with armor piercing on.
    • 2Jacksons & a riflemen. I put 2 Jackson on hold fire in range. Riflemen walk toward a Panther. Panther stand still because a snare will not do anything to Panther. Right at time the ATgrenade animation come, I order 2Jackson to shoot. Panther get engine damage, Riflemen walk toward to sight for Jackson to finish off.
    • 1Jackson & 1Wol. I use Jackson get close to Panther put up a fight. They shot each other once, Jackson start to retreat, Panther chase up. Suddenly from behind Wol run 'step on it' pass Panther. Then Panther tried to retreat but Wol already block behind it. With Jackson on the front & Wol on the back. Result is a dead Panther
    • Priest and mines. As soon as arty on the field. Build mines on vehicle path near your base. Always expect a Panther rush in to kill Priest. When a Panther runs deep to your territory and step a mine. You can do whatever you want with that Panther.
  • #4
    4 months ago

    @38Lightning said:
    I don't know exactly but yes some more balance needs to be done. infantry fighting has gotten a lot better than what I remember but I have heard of the cost problem with grenadier. also light vehicle game play very back and forth awesome now. but the really unbalanced section is the medium tanks. As USF I need a commander for any up gunned Sherman to take out a panzer4, m10 Is a big nope of a tank destroyer unless it came possibly in light vehicle tier and stock Sherman I don't bother with as it cannot fight off panzer 4 solo unless surprised and flanked somehow and negligibly better anti infantry tank. I can micro an m20 to do better damage than the 75mm He even with shrecks on the field which is sad and it simply amounts to survivability being that key factor and m20+ armor upgrade survives fairly easy when properly micro managed.

    same goes with panther I think the overwhelming survivability throws off all other tanks in the game trying to compensate around it even as far as making the tiger and Pershing look bad. king tiger on the other hand is in a league all on its own I love that tank and I hate fighting against it lol.

    First of all, thanks for your comment P-38!

    You said that you america players are getting suffered form 75mm sherman's weak penetration. Since I didn't bought any Dlcs, I don't know specific spec of how american vehicles perform, so, I might taking some mistake on understanding the american faction.
    Anyway, yeah, Shermans and T-34/76 faces insufficient penetration problem quiet some time when they are dealing with Panzer 4. But, from the "reliable source" of Korean analysis, the three initial medium tanks would have chance to bounce each of their rounds even when they are at close range. Well, as you know, it depend on dice god to choose either pen or not pen. But from that source, Panzer 4 has slightly better penetration than other 2 tanks.
    And personally I didn't felt it was difficult to fight with Panzer 4 with my T-34/76.

    I agree with your opinion on Jackson and Panther. Every tank, even with mere T-34/76 can do much more than its ability when it used by good user. But 3 thing that make Panther nearly strongest is are good armor, good mobility and good survivability. No other tanks have its... we call it "sam-sin-gi" which means 3-mystic-energy. Sadly I couldn't watch your replay due to umm.... "Invalided file" error thing. But by one who know how to drive tank like playing 13 kill on World of Tankis would have no problem on controlling tanks. If he got 3 panthers just like I said? He will have no problem dealing with any hardships.

    Again tanks! for your comment allies 형제!

  • #5
    4 months ago

    @C3Tooth said:
    Push up Soviet pop cap to 130 is ridiculous. Just lower down CombatEng 5 to 4, Cons 7 to 6 would already do the pop cap balance for Soviet.

    Panther is a tough/fast unit that just push in without strategy, and thats actually their weakness

    I've been done so many time that outsmart Panthers, I can list them here as an USF player:

    • Pershing, 3 ATguns hold fire with 2 mines. Use Pershing to push a head, counter 2 Panthers. A Pershing can take 5hits, 2 Panther can take 12hits. Certainly a Panther take 1hit, in return Pershing take 2hit from Panthers. Pershing move back to ATgun position, 100% of the chance Panthers will chase Pershing to finish off. I will make sure ATguns will not shoot Panthers until they step on the mines (because of surprise element, ATgun shoot at 60range will make them retreat easily). Now damaged engine Panther just hopelessly retreat away from 3ATguns with armor piercing on.
    • 2Jacksons & a riflemen. I put 2 Jackson on hold fire in range. Riflemen walk toward a Panther. Panther stand still because a snare will not do anything to Panther. Right at time the ATgrenade animation come, I order 2Jackson to shoot. Panther get engine damage, Riflemen walk toward to sight for Jackson to finish off.
    • 1Jackson & 1Wol. I use Jackson get close to Panther put up a fight. They shot each other once, Jackson start to retreat, Panther chase up. Suddenly from behind Wol run 'step on it' pass Panther. Then Panther tried to retreat but Wol already block behind it. With Jackson on the front & Wol on the back. Result is a dead Panther
    • Priest and mines. As soon as arty on the field. Build mines on vehicle path near your base. Always expect a Panther rush in to kill Priest. When a Panther runs deep to your territory and step a mine. You can do whatever you want with that Panther.

    Many thanks for your kind comment! It was really easy to understand for non-native English speaker, hehe.

    Anyway, I thought again about my extended pop cap and I agree with your refuse.. rejection?? I really don't know which word should I use...

    Anyway, anyway, me either think that just push up the soviet's popcap to 130 or more would bring some damage on balance(only If BALANCE IS NOT MESSY right now tho).

    But lowering Con's and pop occupancy is... subtle. nearly gives no change, If I'm correct.

    Here's Cons and T-34/85 combination of normal max cap.

    Unit - Pop

    Engineer - 5x1
    Conscripts - 7x5
    3 of Non-skill regular support heavy weapons - 18
    T-34/85 - 14x3

    total: 100.

    What if Cons pop occupancy lowerd to 6?

    Engineer - 5x1
    Conscripts - 6x5
    3 of Non-skill regular support heavy weapons - 18
    T-34/85 - 14x3

    total: 95

    What if I build Su-85 instead?

    Engineer - 5x1
    Conscripts - 7x5
    3 of Non-skill regular support heavy weapons - 18
    SU-85 - 15x3

    total: 98

    So I would like to say it gives us just little change. But you can produce 1 more T-34/76. If you want 5 of T-34/76 at late game...

    I think if relic has to re-balancing on popcap, they should research to find a good point that everyone can accept. But still, I think Soviet's need pop cap buff if they don't want to make Bigger problem doing reblance thing. I think its the easiest, yet same difficult way...

    And your Elegance style of dealing Panther is cool. I'm not sarcastic about it. But, your... high level trick is not always available, sadly. Most importantly, that won't fix current OP problem of late game Germany. You have to approach into more Essential thing. (And I'm not just crying like baby you know? That thing have everything!! ;D)

    Finally, I would like to introduce you a old(lol) stroy that balancing way of World of Tankis did. Kinda resemble way you Dealing Panther.

    At forum, people were cried about max tier tank "Maus" performs way too bad.
    So, they buffed neighbor max tier tank "E-100"
    People hyped about buff so lots of em rode E-100
    Then suddenly Maus seem to rule the game.
    Why?
    People who stick with the Maus showed better performance. Cause they were little last Veterans.
    And then they never complained about both tanks. lol.

    Just like this story, Improved skill doesn't change the components. And if you met who controls better than you? You'll struggle to take out their OP last game Panther spam. You'll run out eventually just like T-34 crew shouted.

    And you sir too Thanks for long and detailed comment! allies 형제! Let's kick some nassi friends asses together!!

  • #6
    4 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 225

    ya exactly. you can be a good player and have good skill but the difference in room for error is huge in some cases,and what I mean about balancing around the panther throws off the medium gameplay is when was the last time you saw a couple light tanks used to flank a medium and destroy it? everything is getting buffed up and it leaves a gap in light vehicle into medium gameplay where light tanks immediately become but near worthless. then you have hand held anti tank weapons that are either over or underperforming against individual units.
    when was the last time you saw a jagdpanzer? it is pretty much obsolete.

    I am well aware of ways to support and kill a panther even in my last post I believe I had placed a heavy anti tank mine with the m20 completely immobilizing a panther and killed it with a Sherman easy 8 which of course got pushed back by mass shrecks and I continued to harass them with my m20 keeping my distance.
    the matter is not if a panther is able to be killed but the sheer effort involved.

    now as far as hand held weapons panzershecks are way to powerful for the cost. a standard Sherman does not stand the ghost of a chance when a panzergenadier 100 ammo 2x panzersheck starts ripping into it. on the other foot the panzer 4 is perfectly fine dealing with bazookas and barely takes a scratch if any for the same ammo cost and that is standard panzer 4 not the okw upgraded variant. all the while panzergens up close can still mow down a lieutenant.

    American 50 cal upgrade 70 munitions compared to axis 50 munitions. so yes medium tank game play needs a rework
    hand held weapons need tweaking and munitions cost in general need a looking into. common look at Calvary rifleman 70 munitions 2x Thompson vs the Rangers 90 munitions 4x Thompson.

    rifleman grenade 30 munitions short range vs rifle grenade same cost or bundled grenade 35 munitions.
    then usf suffers from lack of anti garrison ability so if you are in a house or bunker you have no problems especially with machine gun crews as it takes about 3-4 grenades and as always need a specialized commander to get flamethrowers or now soon to be rifle grenades.

    Pershing vs panther comparison I hear all the time well Pershing is better vs infantry panther vs tanks so Pershing is fine.
    well in that case it might as well be Sherman 105 or a Sherman 75mm with He rounds. as it is the Pershing is limited to just one and comes out at 12cp around the same time as tiger and king tiger meanwhile it has a cost of 600mp 230 fuel compared to panthers 490mp 180 fuel and panther is more survivable.

    now as it stands panther has to be as survivable as it is to deal with Heavier Soviet and British Tanks as it is the only real option currently and there lies part of the problem that comes right back around to the lighter American tanks that even when successfully performing flanks still heavily risk being destroyed especially by the earlier mentioned panzer grenadiers.

    average American tank only takes 4 anti tank gun shots to kill even the upgraded variations and perishing is 5 I believe. Panther currently Takes 7 shots from the rear and unless you use every trick in the book Jackson will struggle hard compared to other tank destroyers and then forget about king tiger or elephant because that as it is right now in current standing a GG for American players.
    Soviets can get the isu-152 or at least still very survivable su-85 with penal battalion supporting satchel charges and the British can at Least get the 17 pounder gun emplacement and Comet Tank.

    in 4v4 everything is perpetuated by okw benefiting from Caches and having a higher income than the faction was originally intended which makes it further a pain to balance 1v1 on up to 4v4's at its worst.

  • #7
    4 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 452

    Premium medium tanks such as Easy8, Bulldozer, T34/85, Comet, Pershing can take 5hits
    Except Panther can take 6 (not 7)

    Yes, you will always struggle hard when use Jackson against Panther, even Pershing has a hard time. Use every trick in the book is truly required.

    This is how Panthers are used, you know what I mean, they expect Panthers just rush in and everything will be done. This is the weakness.


    I agree Coh2 doesnt support Light tank game play, while to me Light tank in mid game is really fun to play. They put huge impact, requires skill to control. Though it so easy to lose and delay your Medium too far, combine with 4min gameplay for Light tank (as Soviet) is too little, (USF,Brit,Okw has 8min Light tank gameplay because they come much earlier)

    1st: We know Medium has better both armor & health, make them much more durable than Light
    2nd: 75%hp snare mechanic ruin the Light gameplay, a Medium will not get engine damage when get a snare, but 100% a Light will get engine damaged, and thats when you know you already lost the game.
    => I hope Coh3 there will be no snare, tanks should only get engine damaged by RNG like main gun destroy, or by a mine.

  • #8
    4 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 225
    Idk about the 6 shots on panther maybe there is a difference between the different anti tank guns. I know it is 7 with 57mm the American's have I counted it out.
    But I am apt to believe you on the 5 and 6 if your talking ez8 and Pershing.
  • #9
    4 months ago

    To C3Tooth. Thanks again for comment.

    Game play style can't be a weakness of a unit. And if a nassi player experienced Panther destroyed by hasty maneuver, he will pay more caution when he attack again. If he doesn't, he's a just a stupid. I can win against stupid. And you can too. Everyone who can play better than a stupid opponent wins. The problem is Panther is too difficult to take out.

    Here's the my resource exchange ratio during the 2v2 tank battle and game process taken from game play.

    It was a 3v3 game. Axis were 2 OKW, 1 Wehrmacht. Allies were 3 soviet. I managed to utterly destroyed one of OKW with 3 T-34/85. He only produced one Befehl Panther. One of our soviet player kicked from the game due to error. So I don't know And Wehrmacht player produced only 1 tiger and 4 rocket arty.

    Total loss of fuel allies: 1560(13 x T-34/85)

    Total loss of fuel axis: nearly 1010(one King Tiger, two Panther, one Tiger, one Panzer 4)

    2v2 battle of sheer tanks ended with point victory by Soviets. Axis couldn't associated well, also we could strike their weak point of defense line(there were at least 2 paks, with numerous bunkers). Even with our, I guess, twice of Mongolian horde like fast attack, we've lost fuel more than 500. And considering that we had additional 5 more 34/85s the fuel usage gap between them and us would be broader.

    It was a bloodshed tank battle even though they had no chance to stop our mass tanks. If they were smarter so they produced more Panther(they could as you see the fuel usage...), the battle would be more longer.

    Essential tank buff on the soviet is necessary.

    And I agree with your opinion about light vehicle. But I don't get what is snare mechanic... I don't know that term used for. I should've experienced that on the game tho.lol


    To 38lightning. Thanks for comment.

    There's still some advantage on Wehrmacht, even tho relic seems to patch based on them as I think.

    I'm sure relic have no idea about that points. I think they are... satisfied about current and Traditionally German Superiority balance. They are even reluctant on caring soviet as I see. Sad. I can't find much effort on New commander of Soviet than others too.

  • #10
    4 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    Woah hold on cowboy.
    Did you check the latest 1v1 top 10 win rates?

    Soviet faction still by far the strongest.
    As of now top10 win rates:
    Sov 83.21%
    Okw 78.12%
    USF 77.56%
    Wehr 77.37%
    UK 74.79%

    Just because you have trouble early game with conscripts, dont mean it seriously need a buff.

    The top players show if you know the plays well, Soviet dominates easily.

  • #11
    4 months ago

    To mrgame2, Thanks for comment! By the way I'm not a cowboy lol Our country have nothing with cowboy(I know that's kind of idiom tho)

    Okay, at first, I didn't and complained about early game... Think you got the wrong point. The important thing is late game Panther spam and unbalanced snowballing mechanic I mentioned at first post.

    And as I said I don't trust cons if they have no ppsh or other weapons. They are, for me, heavy weapon carrier kind of thing. I prefer use special units like Guard or Support weapons.

    I won't deny the statistics. I didn't really know about that. Since I don't play 1v1.

    (I'm sure you know that the 4v4 and 1v1 are totally different. And I'm talking about 4v4 thing problem. Last but not least, it requires 3-5 minutes to find the 1v1 match. Why do we need to base on the 1v1? Actually, I also having quiet no problem dealing 1v1 during the 4v4)

    Anyway, I'm not sure if that statistics ensure the Soviets are strongest. The rankers are at the another dimension compare to normal players. I don't believe that the balancing must be based on the top rankers win rates.

    Pls read the first post.

  • #12
    4 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 225
    @Jungle74601

    The snare mechanic is anything that slows down or stops a tank. Rifle grenades, sticky satchel charges, mines and so on. Usually a tank must take 75% damage before the snare can take place. The more health it has the more resilient it is to snare.
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