[SOV/ALL] Conscript 7th men

#1
1 year ago
C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 883
edited April 2019 in Balance Feedback

I like the idea of gaining 7th men, it sounds like not powerful, but its supposed to be like so. There are many benefit with this upgrade:

  • 15% less manpower bleeding
  • 20% gain vet faster. Easier to reach to vet3 for 40% harder to hit. This make them the true meat shield
  • Take 2 weapon team and not losing a squad
    Since Cons only have 1 weapon slot, thats mean gaining 7th men makes them lose ability to pick up weapons. I do like the choice in upgrading, not 100% must upgrade.

Pzgren being later than Sturm but not cost effective, in both utility & firepower. I understand why you think Pzgren should come to the field earlier by setting them available at Phrase1, not Tier2. But I dont like that idea, it makes possible for Ost to skip Tier2 to save 20fuel to rush Pz4, because Tier2 hold ATunits for Ost, makes them can not skip the tech. We know how early Ost Pz4 come compared to Allies core Medium tanks, 20fuel earlier will ruin the game.
It can be fixed by nerfing USF & Brit core infantry. As I mentioned before.

  • Riflemen can only pickup 1Bar, so Riflemen only have ability to pickup 2 weapons is from Doctrine that they can get a Bar & a M1919, or Captain can upgrade a Bar & pick another Bar.
  • Tommy get an upgrade name "Heavily armed" that give Tommy ability to pickup 2 Brens. It will lock Tommy to upgrade "5th men". That will give players the choice between more fire power (2 Brens) or more survival-bility (5th men).
    => And then pls put Pzgren back into Tier2

As all factions core infantry have "choice" upgrade. I think its better to give Volk mp40 instead of stg44. To give them the choice between close range or mid-long range.
I did some test in Cheat mod, and I see Volk stg44 can destroy Ost Storm trooper with mp40, it just prove how powerful Volk stg44 in blob.

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Comments

  • #2
    1 year ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 2,006
    edited April 2019

    About the 7 man Conscripts: Hah! No.

    Also, I'm not quite sure what the actual main topic of this thread is supposed to be. You throw a lot of disjointed points around, all of whom have no link whatsoever.

  • #3
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271

    @Hingie said:
    About the 7 man Conscripts: Hah! No.

    You do know this is in the preview right?

    Soviet General Faction Changes
    **Conscripts **
    -Mobilized Reserves: Increases squad size by 1, reduces squad reinforce cost to 17 and increases veterancy gain by 20%. Takes up one weapon slot. Costs 50 munitions.

    Try testing it before you dismiss the idea

  • #4
    1 year ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 2,006
    edited April 2019

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    Try testing it before you dismiss the idea

    No reason to test it. Its a terrible idea that should not be implemented.
    The ramifications which result of this change are far-reaching and potentially highly problematic. It creates a very durable, spammable squad which creates super-synergies with doctrines that further improve the squad.

  • #5
    1 year ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 883

    Ost infantry is get buffed due to it can not compete USF double Bars & Brit double Bren.

    • Gren target size from 1 to 0.85
    • Pzgren popcap 9 to 8
    • Pzgren G43 60ammo to 25
    • Pzgren build time from 34 to 28
    • Pzgren in Tier2 now in Phrase1
    • Pzgren reinforce time from 8.5 to 7

    The gaps between Riflemen & Tommy is too far from Cons. Volk & Gren was balanced to Cons, the proof is they could not compete Riflemen & Tommy late game. Thats why we have Axis core infantry keep getting buffed to be equal counter part to USF & Brit. Only Cons left behind for a whole year, to the point no one use them.

    Try to think about a Riflemen squad takes 25s to build, 7pop cap, able to grab 2 Bar. Cons squad takes 25s to build, 7pop cap, no gunupgrade. We all know Riflemen have better cost effective in time build, pop cap & manpower. It works the same to Tommy & Volk.

    I suggest the idea to buff Cons in survival-bility for months, many others did too. Such as Cons gain 13% harder to hit each vet instead of 40% harder to hit at vet3; Cons ability cost lower for each tech and so on. Just getting 7th men is far from my expectation.

    It creates a very durable, spammable squad which creates super-synergies with doctrines that further improve the squad.

    Even though 7th men upgrade will make them lose ability to pickup weapon, but its still possible for 3x ppsh upgrade from commander. I think 3x ppsh takes a weapon slot will do. To avoid 7men & 3ppsh.

  • #6
    1 year ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 883

    Talking about durable, let me point it out:
    Cons spam wasnt effective in both firepower nor meat shield, their models just drop like flies under elite infantries. (not sure with 7th men though)
    Rilfemen spam is op, but they're expensive & suffers from maintain Lieu & Cap, it cause the micro is much harder because various type of infantry. (1)
    Tommy doesnt have snare, and expensive
    Gren doesnt have number, weak at close range
    Only the Volk, literary no weakpoints.

    To let you understand the point (1)
    Which side do you think it's easier to micro?

    "It creates a very durable, spammable squad "
    You know why Allies MGs spam is the only thing when counter Okw?




  • #7
    1 year ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    7 man cons, ok, sure.
    Then nerf their veterancy bonus and decrease the movement speed.

    If not Sov will be unstoppable late games for just 50 muni each, imagine easy veterancy, low reinforce cost and no popcap penalty. AT snares are crazy cheap to add the insult.

    Another good tightrope test.
    7 man vetted cons crushed vetted lmg grens and pgren, in situations FAVOURING wehr infantry.
    Ridiculous.

  • #8
    1 year ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 883
    edited April 2019

    Im not trying to discuss with you, Im trying to find a way to balance between core infantry, not only between Axis & Allies, its also between Allies v Allies, Axis v Axis. Yours is just bias on Axis.

  • #9
    1 year ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited April 2019

    And yours is allies bias.
    Cant believe you tried to go in circles just to pure buff allies early games, remember that thread? Stop trying to sound high and mighty.

    Now look at the video.

    7 man vetted conscript with stock weapons crush wehr vetted infantry IN SITUATION favoriing wehr, supposedly!
    Left with 3 man, add back reinforce, these cons are dirt cheap effective on rollover cost.
    AND they will continue winning next engagement against vet0 new wehr infantry.
    AND now AT snares are dirt cheap, these 7 man cons can run around snaring late tanks with great speed and cooldown. Way way better than faust now.
    Remember faust needs line of sight and long animations.

    Relic needs to look at rollover costs and not like you just keep harping on vet0 vs vet0, forgot that Allies have greater survivability thanks to larger squad, smaller target szie, faster speed, free repairs, lower pop/unit, sniping range etc.

    Obviously something was forgotten when Relic tried 7 man buff.
    First off the RA bonus should go down from 29.3% to 19% after this buff.

  • #10
    1 year ago
    The whole point is giving cons survivability at the late game. Wich cons do not have right now at all. Reducing their recieved acc just makes the 7th model usseles.
    Do grens or tommies get a bigger target zise when going 5th man? as far as i know they dont. And both can get non doc upgrades.
    Now that cons get 80 extra hp and 1.8 extra dps at long range and 4.8 dps at close for 50 muni at full tech its the end of the world some how lol.
    I do feel testing 7th man/commisar with pssh is a good idea. Making exclusive con tech cheaper is also good imo.

    Because cons have no non doc ai upgrade unlike all other inf, their rec acc should remain unchanged with the 7th man. It would be pointless otherwise. All of the cons utility does not make up for lacking that atm. Maybe commander ppsh,s upgrade should be locked out when having 7th
    Man if not already, imo that would be to strong.
    I do think that it coming at final tier is to late for the vet speed bonus to benifit the cons. It only effects new squads.
  • #11
    1 year ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited April 2019

    Its not pointless if now cons have even more surivable and dps and faster levelup, at only 50 muni. They will keep winning engagements against all wehr infantry late game.

    The point soviet have absolutely no late game issues in live game. This buff lets them have even more winning options if cons keep rolling over wins, at cheaper costs late game.

  • #12
    1 year ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited April 2019

    TS wrote as if wehr infantry is getting buff next patch, but are they?

    Having pgren slightly faster cheaper dont mean much, if they still lose men to engagements, in fact giving xp to allies infantry. Rollover costs are still too high for wehr.

    Just watch tightrope video, pgren got rekt by 7 man cons, late game scenario.

    This is a clear stats buff to cons, and something needs to give, they do not need their strong vet bonus already.

  • #13
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681
    edited April 2019

    @Hingie said:

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    Try testing it before you dismiss the idea

    No reason to test it. Its a terrible idea that should not be implemented.
    The ramifications which result of this change are far-reaching and potentially highly problematic. It creates a very durable, spammable squad which creates super-synergies with doctrines that further improve the squad.

    And these synergies would be......?

    @mrgame2 said:
    7 man cons, ok, sure.
    Then nerf their veterancy bonus and decrease the movement speed.

    If not Sov will be unstoppable late games for just 50 muni each, imagine easy veterancy, low reinforce cost and no popcap penalty. AT snares are crazy cheap to add the insult.

    Another good tightrope test.
    7 man vetted cons crushed vetted lmg grens and pgren, in situations FAVOURING wehr infantry.
    Ridiculous.

    Have you even watched the vid you posted?
    Vet0 7 man cons LOST to UNUPGRADED grens.
    1 con model ALWAYS died on approach and it wasn't even max range approach.
    Vs LMG grens it was pure luck in sniping models.
    PGs had vet2 and were moving in, while cons had vet3, PGs STILL WON despite losing model very quickly.

    Approaching stationary rifle infantry is NOT situation favoring PGs, especially since they do NOT NEED to approach cons.

    Does your fanboism and denial of reality YOU YOURSELF POINT TO has any bounds or is it ever expanding like our universe?

  • #14
    1 year ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited April 2019
    You should follow your own advice, vet pgren LOST to vet cons, easily, with 3 spare men. How much pgren cost, 340, sov player just need 17x5(4+1) to get this vet3 cons back to rollover wins

    While chargin at stationary infantry is high attrition, i expected better with the costs and pgren being wehr cqc, much better but watch the video, results are damning late game for a t0 unit.. tell that to shocks ass-eng or commandos

    And talk about lucky, i will say the unvetted grens and pgren got lucky wins, and not CONCLUSIVE win when vet vs vet. This is terrible for unvet pgren consider cost and popcap.

    Again proot that wehr late games need buff and not this cons. Cons is a straight buff, didnt even penalise the popcap, lol.

    7 man dps is too much.
  • #15
    1 year ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    So kristol/c3, what is your comment on the video, vet3 lmg grens behind green cover, got rekt by 7 man vet3 cons with stock rifles and hurrah. 3 surviving cons.

    Is cons supposed to be a cqc unit, why are they overperforming over pgren? Does wehr have alternative to fight Soviet infantry now?
  • #16
    1 year ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited April 2019
    > @C3Tooth said:
    > Ost infantry is get buffed due to it can not compete USF double Bars & Brit double Bren.
    >
    >
    > * Gren target size from 1 to 0.85


    Caught another half truths by high and mighty c3. Where in patch notes say wehr grens get 15% RA buff, that justify the straight 7 men cons buff?
  • #17
    1 year ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 883

    I suggest to nerf Riflemen & Tommy is considered as Allies bias?

    You're famous in this forum being an Axis bias. My ideas can be wrong, but at least Im not trying to grab every possible to tell every piece of Allies are worthless.

    For anyone who doesnt understand my concept, I made some images here. I do not make these for mrgame2 because he never satisfy on Allies nerf until no more Allies players.

    1st image is between Allies & Axis, at current balancing.

    2nd image is between Allies factions, and between Axis factions, at current balancing

    3rd image is my ideas on fixing them.

  • #18
    1 year ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    You don't even need double brens brit, just 5 men brit will beat lmg grens and stg volks.
    And use penal against volks for start and then guards shock later
    Seriously volks are working as they are, stop making things up just because you don't want to adapt against non wehr EZ infantry

  • #19
    1 year ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited April 2019

    Caught another half truth sneaky c3, Soviet vs okw.

    Supposedly Soviet need to pay, one off, for grenade upgrades, but how is stg free for volks in comparison?

    You can write for trump team my friend, with your purposefully framing for the un-initiated, lol. But some are born in the dark while you only try to adapt to it

  • #20
    1 year ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 883
    edited April 2019

    Do Volks requires 15fuel to upgrade stg44?
    Edit: sorry I will take the question back, I didnt mean to discuss.

  • #21
    1 year ago

    @C3Tooth said:
    Do Volks requires 15fuel to upgrade stg44?
    Edit: sorry I will take the question back, I didnt mean to discuss.

    so basically they ruined the game with the dlc?

    honestly russians should make up for DPS with HP. give them 4 extra models with no weapons to make the squad more healthy.

    and just give wehr the ability to hide innate

  • #22
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    > @Hingie said:
    > @SkysTheLimit said:
    > Try testing it before you dismiss the idea
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > No reason to test it. Its a terrible idea that should not be implemented.
    > The ramifications which result of this change are far-reaching and potentially highly problematic. It creates a very durable, spammable squad which creates super-synergies with doctrines that further improve the squad.

    Repair maybe, but the other commanders use weapon upgrades, which the 7 man locks out. You literally chose durability or specialization.
    Also it's hardly OP, they are still conscripts. Even spammed conscripts are STILL conscripts. Spamming early game conscripts WILL STILL lose you the game because enemy weapon upgrades come ALOT sooner than the t4 conscript extra man. They will be harder to dislodge but they are STILL conscripts and they will not have a weapon other than their conscript nagants. Its strictly a late game bonus that makes easily the most useless late game squad less so.
  • #23
    1 year ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    I disagree, grens are the most useless late game squads. Cons need not engage infantry but play a support role or bunkering down, snares or capping with faster movement + hurrah on top.

    Grens meanwhile, does nothing even with lmg upgrade, against late game allies infantry with RA vet and sprint and weapon upgrades. Grens fail in late game engagement.

    Besides watch the video. 7 man cons charge right up against green cover grens/lmg grens, put up a good fight, down to 1 man. If engagement are in open areas since cover not always around, the results may differ!

    I think for this 7 man to work, i say once you hit the 50muni upgrades, cons squad receive a -8% RA penalty. Also add 5 fuel to prevent cheap spamming. Since AT nades are much cheaper fuel now.

  • #24
    1 year ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 696
    edited April 2019

    @mrgame2

    the at nade has a very short range, only combined with oorah is it as good as it can be. thats a total of 40 muni for a single snare. the faust is not that expensive per use nor does it require as much in tech to get for ost or okw. so the at nade going to 10 fuel is completely fine.

    right now cons pay 250 mp and 35 fuel just for basic snare (25) and anti cover/garrison (10), and only for conscripts. that is more fuel then t1 and t2 combined in terms of fuel. I am not aware that the other factions need to pay that much for snares. to tech to or per use.

    cons are designed to be meat shield utility infantry with a variaty of doctrinal options. right now cons do hardly scale if at all. because their strengths almost do not scale at all. merge, oorah, cheap reinforce, sandbags do not, only the molotov and at nade do slightly. even their recc acc got adjusted from about 0.6 to 0.71 when their dps was made more reliable. wich is nearly the same as grens get at vet 3. grens get 0.7 at max vet.

    cons need something late game. their almighty utility isent getting them there, their dps isent getting them there for sure, their durabilty isent getting them there either. only doctrines do get them there......... wich is bad design.
    cons cant and shoudn,t have a non doc weapon upgrade. however in this 7th man is see the solution, cons dps is pretty meh almost 5 dps per model at vet 3 so one extra man with meh dps isent so game breaking. But it gives the ability to merge better and more often with cheaper reinforcing. your cons are less likely to get wiped while merging. building sandbags faster along with them being more durable and cheaper to reinforce. You know their actual utility/strength scaling into the late game and without doctrines.

    adding rec acc penalty for getting the 7th guy and fuel slapped on per squad is way over the top. them not being able to upgrade to or picking up any weapons and being locked behind tech is more then enough to balance this out. cons are still cons.

  • #25
    1 year ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 883
    7men, Cons still lose to elite infantry but may make them equal, or slightly better than Axis core infantry.

    Cons should not be better than any other core infantry at late game.

    6men, Vet3 40% harder to hit is weak against any Elite infantry. But will be powerful at early game. When most infantry still use rifle while Cons being harder to hit.
    I think Cons can be keep at 6men. Just give their harder to hit vet come much easier. So that they will be powerful in early game which they're supposed to be, but fall down late game.
  • #26
    1 year ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 883
    And there is a simple truth happens in later patches. Both Gren and Cons requires a buff. Then I wonder why do the West armies core infantry didnt get a nerf instead?
  • #27
    1 year ago
    @C3Tooth as far as i know cons no longer have 40% less rec acc at vet 3. They go from 1.098 to 0.71 rec acc instead of 0.63ish in the past.

    In the past their dps was an rng mess, totally unreliable. Their damage was altered from 16 to 12 per and the acc was increased per rifle to make their dps consistent. The rec acc buff was changed to balance this out.

    Also they were meant to fall short combat wise in the late game i agree. Wich they did and still do imo. Their utility and ability to support should not do so. That part of them does not scale enough or at all. 7th man lets them do just that for 50 muni and 17 mp and full tech.
  • #28
    1 year ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 883
    They were meant to be fall down in late game back then. Today they fall down after early mid game due to many reasons:
    1: Mg42 comes earlier (in tier0 instead of tier1 because Vicker is in tier0)
    2: Build time is the same as other core infantry (25sec, it was 20sec back then)
    3: they spawn at HQ makes it harder to spead out and cap in 4v4 map
    => Cons lose advantage in early game.

    4: Volk gain stg44 with Sturm
    => Cons fall down since early mid
  • #29
    1 year ago
    OsttruppenOsttruppen Posts: 21
    edited April 2019

    @C3Tooth said:
    They were meant to be fall down in late game back then. Today they fall down after early mid game due to many reasons:
    1: Mg42 comes earlier (in tier0 instead of tier1 because Vicker is in tier0)
    2: Build time is the same as other core infantry (25sec, it was 20sec back then)
    3: they spawn at HQ makes it harder to spead out and cap in 4v4 map
    => Cons lose advantage in early game.

    4: Volk gain stg44 with Sturm
    => Cons fall down since early mid

    at early mid you can lay demo charges and get penis battalions, guard and shock though

  • #30
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited April 2019
    > @Hingie said:
    > It creates a very durable, spammable squad which creates super-synergies with doctrines that further improve the squad.

    If you even tried to consider an allied buff for once, then you would've noticed it's mutually exclusive with doctrinal upgrades......

    You can spam cons all you want, you still need t4 for the upgrade. It's really incredible how quickly you're dismissing an idea that miragefla and co came up with. They know more about the game than most of us combined an you think their idea is shit but you haven't even tested it....
  • #31
    1 year ago

    Nerfs urgently needed that Axis players are preventing from mentioning:

    -Mg42 time to be recruited increased by 3 seconds
    -Mg42 Suppression rate decrease so it will suppress enemy units after starting the second row of fire, instead of at the beginning of the first row

    -Mg42 Light Mg, Grenadiers are simply ripping off any Soviet infantry stepping in their way
    -Having to buy an additional HQ upgrade after reaching to Battle Phase 1, so you can recruit Panzergrenadiers
    -Panzergrenadiers costs should go back to as they were in previous versions. They are now recruitable at T0 HQ

    -Sturms Panzerschreck upgrade time increased by 10 seconds, right now they get that upgrade very fast
    -Panzerschrecks damage decreased by 20

    -Oswind and Panzer IV front armor decreased by 14 (they get to bounce A LOT of 76mm AT bullets)
    -222 overall armor decreased by 14 (so it can actually feel like a scout car and not like a light tank)

    Now going back to Conscripts:

    The new buff to "help" them in the late game is worthless.

    1. Disables any Commander with Conscripts weapon upgrades
    2. More paper squads to feed your enemy even more (7th man squishy squad)
    3. 50 munitions that will interfere with your ammo to use Aerial abilities, mines, or other more critical abilities to destroy your enemy army composition. (7th men fresh squad dependant on Ammo to work is now ready to feed against upgraded units)
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