Axis - Panzerschrecks - out of sync with the game

#1
2 months ago

Problem:

  • Very high damage burst
  • High penetration values (allied poor armor)
  • Very long range
  • Very effective against allied Heavy tanks, jokes on medium or lower allied armor
  • Very effective when you are losing 200-490 or worst to turn around the game in a couple of minutes a match with more than 30 minutes into it.
  • Best tank destroyer infantry paired with best tanks on the game (highest armor, highest gun reload , highest pen values and highest damage tanks for dummies)... ironic

Solution:

  • Lower the penetration values
  • Lower the distance
  • Lower the high burst damage
  • Decrease accuracy at long range

Comments

  • #2
    2 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,640

    L2P issue, shrecks while potent burst-wise are very inaccurate at long range.

  • #3
    2 months ago
    FreeSpeechFreeSpeech Posts: 47

    @Katitof said:
    L2P issue, shrecks while potent burst-wise are very inaccurate at long range.

    Well, I think an acc of .62 at max range against a target with a size of 22 is not bad.... Considering having a pen of 1 for most allied tanks.

  • #4
    2 months ago
    GaInGaIn Posts: 17
    edited July 28

    -

  • #5
    2 months ago
    mrdjjag81mrdjjag81 Posts: 263

    One of the most concerning of this unit is why the hell they cost the same as zooks and can be acced without any tech? Complete nonsens and should had been done something about for a long time ago instead of just give them a sheeper price and let them field earlyer to wreck any light wihicles allied comes up with

  • #6
    2 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 580

    I like if the Phase is mean to upgrade the units in previous Tier, it would make Phase more meaningful than just a pointless name itself.
    Something like Phase1 unlock LMG42 for Gren in Tier1; Phase2 unlock x2Shreck for PzGren in Tier2; Phase3 makes Pz4 cost 5% less or something which make even if you dont want to go for Tier4, Phase3 still required for Tier3 to be better ect.
    This just my idea, its hard to balance through this balance.

    The x2 schreck powerful was always there since 2013 it never be a problem except there are 3 squads of it. But the units keep twisted into Tier0 make Ost become Tiers skipable with Pion,AssGren, MG42,PzGren in your hand with Phase1 required.

    I cant blame this, Okw, USF,UKF dont have to use their starter unit to build a Tier but claiming key buildings.
    But at this point, Soviet is the one suffered the most. The power of early Conscript swamp can not keep up after 5min which is a waste of manpower. 20sec to build Tier1 and another 30sec for the 1st squad Penal, good luck at fighting a Sturm with 2 Volk. Or 20sec to build Tier2 and 30sec for the 1st Maxim while MG42 & Vicket come 20sec earlier.

  • #7
    2 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822

    they are only available on 4 man squads (and now fussiliers i guess) so focus fire them. if they are ambushing you then you need to screen better

  • #8
    2 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 580

    @thedarkarmadillo I swear I had a game that my 3 Rifleman squad armed with 6 Bars lose to 2 squad G43 Fussilier. 4-5 RM models drops for each 2 Fussilier models (there was no Sturm offizier to buff them). Pls tell it was a cheat, because I dont want to think Fussilier is that op.

    (I armed 3 RM with another 3 Bars after I realize Fussilier is being too powerful, I barely gives 2 Bars to a RM)

  • #9
    2 months ago
    FreeSpeechFreeSpeech Posts: 47

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    they are only available on 4 man squads (and now fussiliers i guess) so focus fire them. if they are ambushing you then you need to screen better

    It's about AT weapons. To focus on a unti that has the same DPS against infantry like a 5 men IS squad while euqipped with 2 Schrecks is quite funny. Thinking they are never supported is even better. All Axis have default smoke now. So it's quite ez to overun allied FLOT. And there's a nice greande too.

  • #10
    2 months ago
    LimzLimz Posts: 4

    @FreeSpeech said:

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    they are only available on 4 man squads (and now fussiliers i guess) so focus fire them. if they are ambushing you then you need to screen better

    It's about AT weapons. To focus on a unti that has the same DPS against infantry like a 5 men IS squad while euqipped with 2 Schrecks is quite funny. Thinking they are never supported is even better. All Axis have default smoke now. So it's quite ez to overun allied FLOT. And there's a nice greande too.

    What's the default smoke for OST again?

  • #11
    2 months ago
    FreeSpeechFreeSpeech Posts: 47

    All mortars from OST have smoke. GRW 34 81mm smoke barrage....

  • #12
    2 months ago
    LimzLimz Posts: 4

    @FreeSpeech said:
    All mortars from OST have smoke. GRW 34 81mm smoke barrage....

    So let me get this straight.

    Armadillo says you should screen your units better.
    You argue that the OST has default access to smoke.
    Therefore, it is highly difficult for the Allies to screen their units better. Or rather it's EZ for the Axis to overrun the Allies.

    When you say default it tells me that all units from OST have smoke regardless of doctrine, build, and resource constraints. This is obviously not true.

    I'd like to you actually be truthful and honest about this whole thing and clearly outline the conditions where Panzergrens with Schreks outperform -- give concrete scenarios and pay careful attention to the resources at play including how much 'effort' a given player needs to perform on either side.

  • #13
    2 months ago
    FreeSpeechFreeSpeech Posts: 47

    @Limz said:

    @FreeSpeech said:
    All mortars from OST have smoke. GRW 34 81mm smoke barrage....

    So let me get this straight.

    Armadillo says you should screen your units better.
    You argue that the OST has default access to smoke.
    Therefore, it is highly difficult for the Allies to screen their units better. Or rather it's EZ for the Axis to overrun the Allies.

    When you say default it tells me that all units from OST have smoke regardless of doctrine, build, and resource constraints. This is obviously not true.

    1st This thread is about Panzeschrecks.... Saying kill those with the AT wepaons is rather a poor argument for balancing.
    2nd All models have 80HP. So 1 Model more means 80 HP more. This is only a problem for static units or units in cover. PzGrens have an SMG with only .75 penalty while moving so they can nicely attack other units while running around. It used to be a problem when Snipers had 1.0 chance to kill a model. This was fixed.
    3rd I said Axis not OST, i.e. both factions ost and okw have access to smoke....

    I'd like to you actually be truthful and honest about this whole thing and clearly outline the conditions where Panzergrens with Schreks outperform -- give concrete scenarios and pay careful attention to the resources at play including how much 'effort' a given player needs to perform on either side.

    Concrete is used to build things. Shows you are likely a German speaking native. So it would be great if you start with a clear post of your point!

  • #14
    2 months ago
    LimzLimz Posts: 4

    @FreeSpeech said:

    @Limz said:

    @FreeSpeech said:
    All mortars from OST have smoke. GRW 34 81mm smoke barrage....

    So let me get this straight.

    Armadillo says you should screen your units better.
    You argue that the OST has default access to smoke.
    Therefore, it is highly difficult for the Allies to screen their units better. Or rather it's EZ for the Axis to overrun the Allies.

    When you say default it tells me that all units from OST have smoke regardless of doctrine, build, and resource constraints. This is obviously not true.

    1st This thread is about Panzeschrecks.... Saying kill those with the AT wepaons is rather a poor argument for balancing.
    2nd All models have 80HP. So 1 Model more means 80 HP more. This is only a problem for static units or units in cover. PzGrens have an SMG with only .75 penalty while moving so they can nicely attack other units while running around. It used to be a problem when Snipers had 1.0 chance to kill a model. This was fixed.
    3rd I said Axis not OST, i.e. both factions ost and okw have access to smoke....

    I'd like to you actually be truthful and honest about this whole thing and clearly outline the conditions where Panzergrens with Schreks outperform -- give concrete scenarios and pay careful attention to the resources at play including how much 'effort' a given player needs to perform on either side.

    Concrete is used to build things. Shows you are likely a German speaking native. So it would be great if you start with a clear post of your point!

    Oh, okay, I'll make it real simple for you then: False.

    Discussion over. We can move on now.

    Oh, a better one yet that gets invoked all the time which is just as fallacious as any argument you've raised: Player Card, please?

    Here's some help for you to understand what I mean: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_and_concrete

  • #15
    2 months ago
    javabaljavabal Posts: 88

    The double Panzershrecks in the Panzergrenadiers has a cost of 100 ammo and does not need to be unlocked, it is the same cost as the two bazookas in the USF, however, the Panzergrenadiers kill a panther almost 3 times faster than the squadron of the USF, and that's because the Panzershrecks do 120 damage vs 80 of the bazzokas and have much more penetration. If we add that to the fact that the allied tanks are weaker than the axis ones, you have a lot of advantage at the end of the game. And what I'm comparing it with the USF, if you compare it with Penal Battalion or with the piat in the UKF is worse. Even the Sturmpioneer with only one Panzershrecks destroys faster than any other allied unit. In other words, if you play with the axis and lose all your tanks, you can still return to the game with only infantry, on the other hand the side of the allies is more difficult.

  • #16
    2 months ago
    LimzLimz Posts: 4

    @javabal said:

    The double Panzershrecks in the Panzergrenadiers has a cost of 100 ammo and does not need to be unlocked, it is the same cost as the two bazookas in the USF, however, the Panzergrenadiers kill a panther almost 3 times faster than the squadron of the USF, and that's because the Panzershrecks do 120 damage vs 80 of the bazzokas and have much more penetration. If we add that to the fact that the allied tanks are weaker than the axis ones, you have a lot of advantage at the end of the game. And what I'm comparing it with the USF, if you compare it with Penal Battalion or with the piat in the UKF is worse. Even the Sturmpioneer with only one Panzershrecks destroys faster than any other allied unit. In other words, if you play with the axis and lose all your tanks, you can still return to the game with only infantry, on the other hand the side of the allies is more difficult.

    Asymmetrical balance.

    And you're bringing in a lot of other factors which can change the situation without changing the cost or performance of shrecks. It should be blatantly obvious due to your conclusion.

  • #17
    2 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822

    @FreeSpeech said:

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    they are only available on 4 man squads (and now fussiliers i guess) so focus fire them. if they are ambushing you then you need to screen better

    It's about AT weapons. To focus on a unti that has the same DPS against infantry like a 5 men IS squad while euqipped with 2 Schrecks is quite funny. Thinking they are never supported is even better. All Axis have default smoke now. So it's quite ez to overun allied FLOT. And there's a nice greande too.

    they dont howver have the same dps against infantry. the 4 mansquad thing is important because once they start dropping models it becomes far too risky to maitain the attack.drop 2 models of a pgren squad with shreks and it has NO anti infantry but also risks being wiped., sturmpios are a bit better of at maintaining their AI, but are even less durable.

    as for smoke, its called combined arms, thats how the game is played, you need to respond tactically to their applied tactic. throw a grenade into that smoke, or even retreat your armour back- its faster than the infantry and noone can auto target through the smoke. all it does it delay the same outcome.

  • #18
    2 months ago
    FreeSpeechFreeSpeech Posts: 47
    edited August 9

    @Limz said:

    Concrete is used to build things. Shows you are likely a German speaking native. So it would be great if you start with a clear post of your point!

    Oh, okay, I'll make it real simple for you then: False.

    Discussion over. We can move on now.

    Oh, a better one yet that gets invoked all the time which is just as fallacious as any argument you've raised: Player Card, please?

    Here's some help for you to understand what I mean: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_and_concrete

    And what's your point? For the discussion?

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    they dont howver have the same dps against infantry. the 4 mansquad thing is important because once they start dropping models it becomes far too risky to maitain the attack.drop 2 models of a pgren squad with shreks and it has NO anti infantry but also risks being wiped., sturmpios are a bit better of at maintaining their AI, but are even less durable.

    as for smoke, its called combined arms, thats how the game is played, you need to respond tactically to their applied tactic. throw a grenade into that smoke, or even retreat your armour back- its faster than the infantry and noone can auto target through the smoke. all it does it delay the same outcome.

    The problem is that Shrecks outperform any allied handheld AT weapon.
    No matter on 4 or 5 model squads. Giving a unit 2 of them is just a balance problem. Give PZgrens 1 for 90 ammo and it's fine or 2 for 120 but then remove MP44 (btw then no one could argue there s a discount....)
    To argue it's risky to have 4 models and if 2 drop they have no AI capability anymore is like saying if IS drops 2 model w/o upgrade they have no AI capability.....

  • #19
    2 months ago
    WunderKatzeWunderKat… Posts: 730
    edited August 12

    Shrecks are OP and one of the large problems with this game. Right now the only viable allied strat is to spam TDs.

    One PzGren and one stug/panther/p4 will 3/4 health a medium tank when they gain sight of it. Meaning you can get only one shot before needing to repair. Same thing if you try to chase down a fleeing tank with a TD, you get one shoot before 3/4 health gone.

    To have the same effect you need like 7+ bazookas and a TD. Or two TDs and an AT gun (god forbid they have a panther instead of a medium). Its completely absurd. Even more absurd when you consider panzer smoke and super speed mode. 4v4 is so broken in axis favor.

    Early game faction vs. late game faction design is really stressful and they need to take more steps to smoothing it out.

  • #20
    2 months ago
    Patrol_OmegaPatrol_Om… Posts: 299
    edited August 10

    Axis heavy armor and veterancy giving tanks even more armor is totally absurd, added to the fact that they hold anti-tank infantry with heavy burst is even more absurd indeed.

    Now Allied forces early advantage is long gone after the early buffs where given to Axis factions on the last patch combined with the overall nerfs to Allied early vehicles and infantry.

    Balance team did their job wrong, because not a single analysis was made before applying early buffs to Axis factions ................
    that already hold the best late game.

  • #21
    1 month ago
    FreeSpeechFreeSpeech Posts: 47

    @thedarkarmadillo said:

    @FreeSpeech said:

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    they are only available on 4 man squads (and now fussiliers i guess) so focus fire them. if they are ambushing you then you need to screen better

    It's about AT weapons. To focus on a unti that has the same DPS against infantry like a 5 men IS squad while euqipped with 2 Schrecks is quite funny. Thinking they are never supported is even better. All Axis have default smoke now. So it's quite ez to overun allied FLOT. And there's a nice greande too.

    they dont howver have the same dps against infantry. the 4 mansquad thing is important because once they start dropping models it becomes far too risky to maitain the attack.drop 2 models of a pgren squad with shreks and it has NO anti infantry but also risks being wiped., sturmpios are a bit better of at maintaining their AI, but are even less durable.

    as for smoke, its called combined arms, thats how the game is played, you need to respond tactically to their applied tactic. throw a grenade into that smoke, or even retreat your armour back- its faster than the infantry and noone can auto target through the smoke. all it does it delay the same outcome.

    They have still a grenade even with 1 model left.... And every unit losing 1 model or 2 is risking getting whiped no matter if they are a 4-model squad or a 5-model squad.
    But lets take look at the AI behavior. 2 Schrecks + 2 MP44 we neglect Schreck dmg and have 2 * 15 at range 0= 30 DPS At range 20 it s 2 * 7 = 14. Same for a 5 Model IS: R0 5* 5 = 25; R20 5*3.7 = 7.4. EVEN with Schrecks PzGrens deal a lot more damage than 5 Model IS up to a range of 20. How can it be that 2 MP44 deal more DPS at the range of 20 than 5 Enfield rifles?
    Smoke? Sry i just need to walk through smoke with my PZGrens or ST.pios to have a 30 DPS/45DPS unit next to MGs etc and a unit that can hit Medium tanks with ez.... Sry allies have no regular units that deal so much damage.

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