[OST] Grenadier MP cost

#1
3 months ago

Hello,

I suggest to change the manpower price of Grenadier

240 to 260 Manpower

Why because today Grenadier price is 240 same as conscript

But conscript are vulnerable, they don't have panzerfaust and long range grenad.
Can not be upgrade without commander
Can not build bunker

260 seems to be good it's beetwen conscript and USF unit.

Comments

  • #2
    3 months ago
    ARMYguyARMYguy Posts: 848

    Are you playing 2013 COH2 still? Because in the 2020 edition of the game, cons are good, i would say over buffed considering 6 man and the same 240 cost. Whereas grens are by far, the worst main line infantry in the game. If you need to see why, i suggest playing the faction.

  • #3
    3 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 876
    edited June 10

    Hello, do you expect

    • 4men Gren, 1 LMG, 7pop cap, cost 260mp
      to fight

    • 5men Tommy, 2 Bren, 7 pop cap, cost 270mp

    • 5men Riflemen, 2 Bars, 7 pop cap, cost 280mp

    Cons vs Gren is fair, RM fits for their price but quite too much for their pop cap cost, Tommy is just op

    Unlike all other main line infantry, Gren is the only main line that have to retreat for every single time they step on mine (because it kill 2 models, Cons still have 5men, other have 3men), Gren is the only main line that unable to pick up weapon team if they lose 1 model. You can have Cons grab 2 weapon team and able to retreat with 1 man.

  • #4
    3 months ago
    MorisMoris Posts: 68

    Their cost corresponds to their effectiveness. For the early and middle game, this squad is well balanced.

  • #5
    3 months ago
    LoveMeNowLoveMeNow Posts: 29

    @C3Tooth said:
    Hello, do you expect

    • 4men Gren, 1 LMG, 7pop cap, cost 260mp
      to fight

    • 5men Tommy, 2 Bren, 7 pop cap, cost 270mp

    • 5men Riflemen, 2 Bars, 7 pop cap, cost 280mp

    Cons vs Gren is fair, RM fits for their price but quite too much for their pop cap cost, Tommy is just op

    Unlike all other main line infantry, Gren is the only main line that have to retreat for every single time they step on mine (because it kill 2 models, Cons still have 5men, other have 3men), Gren is the only main line that unable to pick up weapon team if they lose 1 model. You can have Cons grab 2 weapon team and able to retreat with 1 man.

    Cons vs Grenadier fair ?
    Cons have long range rifle grenade wich can one shoot a section ? No
    Cons cannot build bunk which are stronger than sand wall
    Panzerfaust the range compare ?

    So 280 for USF faction vs 240 for Grenadier is so balance ?
    Price for MG42 light ?
    Price for Bar and M1919 ?

    Maybe 240 is fair for Grenadier but 280 for USF rifleman is not balance so,

    How many times I loose 1v1 Rifleman vs Grenadier both Green cover middle range....

  • #6
    3 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 876

    Balance between Soviet & Ost was a perfection between early vs late advantage.

    _240mp with 50% more men. Faster build from HQ vs Gren in Tier1 building. The 1st fight is Gren (4men) face 2 Cons (12men). Is this fair?
    _ Late game Cons has 7men, Gren keep their 4men, is this fair. Im sure that why LMG42 is there for a reason.
    _ 2 weapon teams dropped, 7men Cons can pick both of them and still have 1man to retreat. Gren can not do that, is that fair?
    _ Step on 2 mines, Cons still have 3men, Gren gets whipped. Is that fair?
    _Grenade and any indirect fire is stupidly RNG with its 8damage to 80damage. Riflemen & Tommy also have them
    _Pzfaust (snare) have the same range

    280mp (28mp per men), vs 240mp (30mp per men). Alone 1 Rifleman model is slightly worse than 1 Gren model.
    _Price for MG42 = Bar. MG42 can not fire on the move, great at long range. Bar can fire on the move, great at mid-close range. Each has their special task. Except you _requires a spotting unit
    to use that long range advantage. Is this fair?

    Look at this simple chart, do you think Gren actually have a chance?

    Its about lack of understanding units. Riflemen has the highest close range dps of 5 mainline infantry. Rush them close to Gren. Use their weakness at your advantage.


    I played only Allies back then especially USF (self explain as I painted my own face as USF Airborne company), some squad like Fallschrim & Ober are OP (eventhough Fallschrim get nerfed really hard), but I never complain Gren is so OP.

    Nowaday I play Axis, I never use Gren.

  • #7
    3 months ago
    LoveMeNowLoveMeNow Posts: 29

    Yes bro and many times I loose against because Bar is under power vs MG42 Light.
    When you 3 faction of Grenadiers rushing 3 rifleman you don't have any chance with or without bars.

    Grenadier are best infantry middle and long range, so how you want to win at close range, they have the times to kill you before being close range.
    And don't forget that Grenadier can have a second weapons (pick up) so your chart is not logic.

    I see only blob blob grenadiers and my rifleman always lose 85% so don't tell me everything is balance.

  • #8
    3 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 876


    I just put this here, if you want to know how double Bar perform, simply double the stats except Max range.

    And don't forget that Grenadier can have a second weapons (pick up) so your chart is not logic.

    Yes, Gren able to pick 2nd weapon by killing enemy infantry with ammo purchased weapons and hope for RNG chance of weapon drop.
    RM able to pick up 2nd weapon as soon as they have another 60ammo.

    You think you're living the rich of Double Bar is the same as peasant Gren who has to steal weapons in hope to be equal rich?
    Your logic doesnt even work.

  • #9
    3 months ago
    ARMYguyARMYguy Posts: 848

    It is hopeless man, the forums are full of people that only play one faction. I used to only play axis many years ago, but even i eventually branched out in the world and stretched my legs... lol

  • #10
    3 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 876
    edited June 12

    I go on the opposite, started in 2013 as Soviet. In 2016 changed to USF. This year started playing Axis, flip around Ost & Okw, but my friend play Ost well since hes used to Soviet, I main Okw as Axis

    Its amazed me that I have a hard time vs Ober & Fall as Allies, but turn out they can be beaten quite easily with Shocktroop & Ranger (perhaps its my skill). But I never had problems vs Gren, everyone knows Gren is painfully fragile to be a frontline unit.

    And here we still have some complain why 5men RM/Tommy + double Bar/Bren are too weak vs 4men Gren + 1 LMG.

  • #11
    3 months ago
    LoveMeNowLoveMeNow Posts: 29
    edited June 12

    @C3Tooth I know what I see when I play USF with 2 bars vs MG42 light or STG
    I'm close range with 2 bars vs OKW Volks and how many times I loose green cover or not.

    Your stats are maybe good, but it's not the reality in game, play again to USF and you will see.

    Today USF are here to support others Allies , it's not an aggressive faction

    Typical example today

    Airborn vet 1 vs (with 2 M1919) vs 1 grenadier vet 2 MG42 Light (no green cover)
    Grenadier win, tell me ?

  • #12
    3 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 876

    Vet2 is when a unit gets massive buff. It can be up to +30% most stats (vehicle) and +40% ( infantry).

    Cons get 40% harder to hit, Gren get 40% more accuracy.
    Im sure Para vet2 will eat 2 Gren squad vet0-1. As I said I once whip 4 Gren squad at close range with Para thompson vet3.

  • #13
    3 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    @C3Tooth said:
    Vet2 is when a unit gets massive buff. It can be up to +30% most stats (vehicle) and +40% ( infantry).

    Cons get 40% harder to hit, Gren get 40% more accuracy.
    Im sure Para vet2 will eat 2 Gren squad vet0-1. As I said I once whip 4 Gren squad at close range with Para thompson vet3.

    https://www.coh2.org/guides/29892/the-company-of-heroes-2-veterancy-guide

  • #14
    3 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 876
    edited June 15

    Thanks

  • #15
    3 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 512
    My experience has been rifleman seem slightly manpower bleed when reinforcing.
    Original pricing of units not bad though.

    Rifleman vs grens no upgrades is fairly close fight rifleman of course win out in close range but usually 1 or 2 models remaining means though they technically won the fight it was not a very efficient trade.

    Bars up close win hands down but vs volks someone was saying they are losing and that is because stg is a better close range weapon so you need to fight them mid to long range Instead as up close is a bad engagement.

    Grens need to be played more defensively at long range with hmg support to bleed enemy and use your panzergrenadiers instead to attack and get in close they will trade the most effective except vs shocktroopers or thompsons.

    Most people do engage poorly but I still feel un upgraded rifleman are slightly off vs un upgraded grens/volks which perform very similar even though the rifleman do win the engagements.
  • #16
    3 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 876

    If you lose 4 RM models vs Gren, you lose 28x4 = 112mp. Gren lose 240mp. Its super profit.

    Image a fight between 3 squad of RM (15men) vs 3 squad of Gren (12men)
    Both side lose 3 model (RM 11men, Gren 9men). Next thing happens is Gren has to retreat a squad. The fight will be 11men vs 8men.

    Bigger fight like adding Bars & LMG42 to both side, Gren has to retreat at 2men, or risk losing a squad will be too high. And the fight will be RM 13men vs Gren 8men.

  • #17
    3 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 512
    edited June 16
    If gren squad wipe rm 280mp that would be profitable to. any squad wipe is.but that's not what I was referring to.

    Typically rifleman are not squad wipeing grens anyway in un upgraded combat since rifleman have less long range accuracy on a retreating squad compaired to grens.

    it is open ground engagements rifleman will not be as effective trying to get into mid range or even close range
    (though you really should have grens behind cover or sandbags for the advantage)

    as gren retreats say with 1 model forced to retreat and rm survive with 1 model but more hp so they technically win by forcing the retreat or even 2 models survive rins repeat you might not win the engagements but you will still bleed manpower of rifleman squads in halfway decent engagements helping in the long term if you maintain killing equal model counts.

    Then you just come back with more stuff.

    That's why I say that rm are better but recieve manpower bleed.
  • #18
    3 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 876

    How many squads do u get in usual?

    Im not a spammer so the biggest infantry team is 2 Sturm, 3 Volk. Having 2 Sturm repairing vehicles, my 3 Volk always face 5 Tommy or 4RM+Cap/Lieu
    My 3 Volk dont even have ability to hold the line with enemy's huge infantry. (usually team mate blame me for being noob not able to hold 10 squad from 2 players)

    Im sure its just my old habit from playing USF where I had 3 Para that eat everything and didnt even need Rear to repair. While playing Okw usually have my MP float alot with 5 squads at hand

  • #19
    3 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 512
    Well against usf I might throw a kubel in there but your build is about the same as mine.
    Though I might not build a second sturm right away that's where I get the kubel and repair that and keep myself at range to bleed usf troops with kubel and volks range.
    Only trouble I might have is with maxim/Vickers supporting or possibly universal carrier.
    But vs universal carrier I have seen someone do a raketen first build order followed by kubel then volks which worked nicely against me playing ukf with universal carrier though I don't see this to useful if going vs soviet/usf compositions.

    Thing is I sometimes forget about makeing a truck which delays my weapons and grenades slightly But typically if I see usf go lieutenant and m20 I'll grab a luches asap to try and take the advantage of them not haveing at and counter hmg guns fairly easily.
    If I'm ostheer and I see a stuart I can safely grab an ostwin if I have not gotten anything already since it murders Stuart's and keeps track of them better with turret rotation than a panzer not that panzer has bad rotation.

    Only when stg upgraded do I charge in up close since they are better than a single bar at close range so long as you are not moveing them which drops their dps so closing the gap is an estimation on if it is worth trying to push in or not so you can get to a range and hold position as soon as possible I might even keep a volk or two unupgraded on purpose to fight from behinde cover and the sturm/stg volks to move in together.



    As a usf player not to many options right away.
    I know I will be faceing sturm so I keep my echelon And rifleman close to single target dps them before they can get to close to hurt me is this biggest thing early game and pray you dont see a kubel while you have no cover you dont want to build a fighting position because ostheer hmg can outrange it and push you back or even force retreat wasting manpower and a destroyed fighting position.

    I would typically get I beleive 3 rifleman then captain with bar which helps vs the 1 sturm they might have.
    If my ally goes hmg I would be safe to have my second unit be a mortar instead of a rifleman which can help vs kubel/hmg.

    I typically dont get grenades right away since I have a higher chance of simply wasting ammo on smoke and grenades when I could have gotten bars but I have sometimes used smoke to split up firepower of enemy, say sturm is charging me and volks are fireing behinde cover I will smoke out the volks and focus the sturm forceing the sturm squads to retreat which then allows me to advance to get the close range advantage on the volks unupgraded volks of course.

    Vs sturm/stg on a close quarters area I pretty much have no options other than double bar which is not that great especially with stun and fire grenades in the mix it just to easily goes bad unless you have a commander for calvary,rangers,paratroopers.

    You might end up playing the same game as volks/grenadiers later on do as much damage as you can from range then when the stg/sturm close in retreat rinse and repeat.
    Just stay out of tight areas.
    Hopefully you can depending on map.
    You wont hold any ground but you can at least bleed them a bit when they get to much close quarters weaponry.

    Of course you still may finde trouble from obers lmg in heavy cover thrown into the mix but not to big a deal as long as they dont leave 1 model squads at home and tech switch to more obers you might have to get some m20's which I prefer.
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